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Prediction: Warren moves to the center, loses the primary.

Dans La Lune said:
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.
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I agree that she could move to the center and if so her progressive support would decline. But I don't think she'll gain much support with moderates. They along with the black vote will stick with Biden till the end, unless he blows it big time (which is a definite possibility)...
 
Phys251 said:
Do you really think that after the debacle of the 2016 primary and the most hostile "Democratic" candidate since Ted Kennedy, I can't spot progressive slurs a mile away? :lol:
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What are you even talking about here? Ted Kennedy? What? Nothing to do with me.

Let's consider just your first paragraph as an example.
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You didn't even address the paragraph you quoted.

No room for subtlety, and further to the economic left = better. Why not just go all the way and support a Communist? :shrug:
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Well, I support Medicare for All, and I would be less willing to support a candidate who didn't support it. Is this surprising to you?

And are you a right-winger now? You'd think I was talking to Rick Santorum or something. Just and out-and-out hostility. If you don't think my opinions or beliefs are viable, or you prefer a more moderate approach, there's plenty of less progressive, less "communist" candidates for you. I hear Biden is looking for donations.

So Mrs. "I've got a plan for that" is taking "a first step" towards considering Sanders's plan, which will come into being via unicorns and pixie dust. :lol:
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How does your opinion, skepticism, if not outright hostility of Bernie Sanders have anything to do with me? Perhaps I mistook the nature of your criticism. Are you critiquing my post, my political prediction, my ideology, or something altogether different than what we're discussing?

Would you like me to continue or are you finally starting to get the hint? ;)
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You haven't explained a single aspect of your criticism, so we're going to continue this exchange, if you're willing.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That (bolded above) seems to contradict your OP premise that far left ("There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders"?) Sanders will overtake Warren if (when?) she decides to offer her plan (SWAG?) to actually pay for a M4A system.

Both Warren and Sanders appear to rely heavily on new (probably unconstituional) forms of federal taxation (on wealth and stock transactions) to fund their promises of delviering loads more "free" stuff.

I do agree with you that Biden has likely peaked, but to assert that far left Sanders will prevail over not so far left Warren in the DNC primaries is quite a stretch among a "largely centrist" group of voters.

I would define independents as voters who do not vote a straight "D" or "R" ticket and they are also "largely centrist" and thus inlikely to see a far left, avowed socialist as being better than (the populist?) Trump despite Trump's many personal faults.
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Hillary, Obama, Biden, Mayor Pete, Klobuchar, and about 90% of the Democrats are centrist. There is no contradiction with my opening point.
 
Lovebug said:
What I am saying is that Independents are leaning Dem or Rep, or whatever pretense of centrism there is.
Look at what has been happening in last elections. It is understood that we are to vote for whatever candidate remains on the ticket, and it is so by design. We are to hold our breath and vote. That is one reason an extremists like Trump won against what the Dems presented us with. D and R remain in power, no 3rd party, no viable alternative allowed. Centrists from either party are nothing but partisan when it comes down to protecting their party.
Now back to Warren. Lets set aside what party ticket she is running on. She had some far out proposals, i.e. HC. It seems now that she is hearing the angst about her proposal and steps back a bit. She is willing to take a look. She is listening. That is a good thing.
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She shouldn't have backed Bernie Sanders' proposal if she wasn't on board with it, hadn't done the research, or had genuine concerns about its viability. Look at what happened to Kamala Harris.

If Warren used M4A as a means to build a progressive base, that would not be good, and I sincerely hope that's not the case.
 
Dans La Lune said:
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.
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Basically, I think Warren's support is largely from people who want a good president, and are anti-Bernie for any of a number of misguided reasons - Hillary fanatics who hate him, people allergic to the word 'socialist', people who haven't gotten much informed about him, people who prefer a woman just for being a woman, people who prefer Warren's Harvard establishment background to Bernie's populism for the working class.
 
charliebrown said:
I respectfully disagree with you. MANY people are tired of the three word campaign slogans and politicians promising the world and deliver nothing.
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Your criticism of Bernie is that he hasn't yet actually done the programs he will fight for as president? Typical Bernie Derangement Syndrome nonsense. Bernie has solid plans; his opponents tend to not be able to be bothered to learn that.
 
Craig234 said:
Your criticism of Bernie is that he hasn't yet actually done the programs he will fight for as president? Typical Bernie Derangement Syndrome nonsense. Bernie has solid plans; his opponents tend to not be able to be bothered to learn that.
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What were his major accomplishments as a Senator?
 
Dans La Lune said:
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.
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Your point is that she is progressive Democrat but not a socialist democrat. We all know that. Sanders has no loyalty to the Democratic party, is only a member of it for a year or so out of every four, to get into the Democratic party debates and primaries. Then he ditches it to the curb because he does not want to be a member of the party he wants to lead. Warren is no Bernie and Bernie is no Democrat. To get this nomination, both will have to move to the center. Sanders will not and he will not be our nominee. Warren may and Warren may be our nominee Both of them have problems attracting black voters and moderate Dems that will be crucial to winning the nomination and the general election.
 
Dans La Lune said:
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.
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I think that's a real possibility but she could absorb some of Biden's support if she moves towards the center. Of course she will also lose some people to Bernie so it's hard to tell how it will all shake out. I'm really enjoying where the left is headed right now. Nobody could've predicted that we would be debating the difference between a democratic socialist and some watered down form of a social democrat.
 
Bullseye said:
What were his major accomplishments as a Senator?
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Almost singlehandedly carrying the progressive agenda on his shoulders for several decades, pushing the entire party towards his direction, and inspiring candidates who will carry the progressive torch for decades to come.
 
Dans La Lune said:
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.
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Tethering herself to an untenable and unpopular idea is a bad strategy for the general. Still time to clean it up.
 
Dans La Lune said:
Almost singlehandedly carrying the progressive agenda on his shoulders for several decades, pushing the entire party towards his direction, and inspiring candidates who will carry the progressive torch for decades to come.
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And that resulted in what concrete accomplishments?
 
Dans La Lune said:
Correct. He's loyal to the American people.
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No doubt about that. And to his credit he kept his commitment not to run as a independent and to support the democratic ticket. The man is a decent man, a smart politician and he keeps his word. I actually voted for him in the Oregon Primary partly because our party, and our country needed to be exposed to his ideas and partly because I was protesting the 'coronation', but that does not mean I thought he was electable.
 
Bullseye said:
What were his major accomplishments as a Senator?
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I cannot think of any. He was pretty much a nobody most of his career. He only got press due to being an "independent" who caucused with the Democrats
 
Dans La Lune said:
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.
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She's horrible, she can't beat Trump, she's the nominee.

:shrug:
 
Dans La Lune said:
Please quote my disdain without your editorializing.



I never said there was a progressive purity test. This is your strawman. My OP is very clear. Bernie is to the left of Warren, Warren will move to the center because that's where there's room to grow. Some will like it, some won't.

Don't put words in my mouth. You're better than that.
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Ignore him, he likes to put words in peoples' mouths and then spin the thread around. He does it in every thread about the Democratic candidates that he likes or dislikes.
 
Dans La Lune said:
What are you even talking about here? Ted Kennedy? What? Nothing to do with me.

You didn't even address the paragraph you quoted.
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And here comes the La-la-la-can't-hear-you game. Right on cue. :lol:

Well, I support Medicare for All, and I would be less willing to support a candidate who didn't support it. Is this surprising to you?

And are you a right-winger now? You'd think I was talking to Rick Santorum or something. Just and out-and-out hostility.
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There it is. There's the progressive purity test!

What progressives such as yourself want is the right to be able to sling as much **** against the Democrats who do not pass your progressive purity test while receiving complete immunity from any kind of scrutiny in return. All-give-and-no-take.

And oh, man did I get a kick out of your juvenile comparison of me to Rick Santorum. Your obvious desperation is showing. :mrgreen:

How does your opinion, skepticism, if not outright hostility of Bernie Sanders have anything to do with me?
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^ More all-give-and-no-take attitude. :lol:

Perhaps I mistook the nature of your criticism. Are you critiquing my post, my political prediction, my ideology, or something altogether different than what we're discussing?

You haven't explained a single aspect of your criticism, so we're going to continue this exchange, if you're willing.
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The answers you seek are already here. You just don't want to listen to them, because your mind is already made up and there is nothing that can be done to change it.

Prove me wrong with your actions. If you can. :)
 
Bullseye said:
What were his major accomplishments as a Senator?
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All of three sponsored bills signed into law, two of which renamed post offices. :lol:

By contrast, milquetoast corporatist moderate conservative sellout hawk Klobuchar has over a hundred. :)
 
Phys251 said:
And here comes the La-la-la-can't-hear-you game. Right on cue. :lol:
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Okay, but I still don't know what you're talking about. *shrug*

There it is. There's the progressive purity test!
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Where is it specifically?

What progressives such as yourself want is the right to be able to sling as much **** against the Democrats who do not pass your progressive purity test while receiving complete immunity from any kind of scrutiny in return. All-give-and-no-take.
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So basically advocating for the best policies is a purity test. Or I should just a a communist. Got it, Rick.

And oh, man did I get a kick out of your juvenile comparison of me to Rick Santorum. Your obvious desperation is showing. :mrgreen:
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So you're not using right-wing tactics? You yourself said that I should just straight-up be a communist.

^ More all-give-and-no-take attitude. :lol:
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What exactly do you want me to say? Let me know and I'll let you know where I stand.

The answers you seek are already here. You just don't want to listen to them, because your mind is already made up and there is nothing that can be done to change it.
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Well, you're clearly not trying to make a case for your position, nor are you trying to articulate your critique of my OP. Just mud-slinging for no reason whatsoever, other than that apparently I don't support your moderate choice of candidates.

Prove me wrong with your actions. If you can. :)
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Oh, we're not done yet.
 
Dans La Lune said:
Okay, but I still don't know what you're talking about. *shrug*

Where is it specifically?
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I have already provided you answers about the progressive slurs that you have used. You cannot find those answers for the same reason that a fugitive cannot find the police. :)

So basically advocating for the best policies is a purity test. Or I should just a a communist. Got it, Rick.

So you're not using right-wing tactics? You yourself said that I should just straight-up be a communist.
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:lamo

Rick? Right-wing tactics? Methinks thou dost protest too much. Please go back and read the words that exist on your screen, not the twisted version that exists solely in your head.

What exactly do you want me to say? Let me know and I'll let you know where I stand.
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I want you to learn to listen for a change. That is a simple skill that you have yet to demonstrate. :shrug:

Well, you're clearly not trying to make a case for your position, nor are you trying to articulate your critique of my OP. Just mud-slinging for no reason whatsoever, other than that apparently I don't support your moderate choice of candidates.
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There you go again. As soon as I offer up the slightest critique of Saint Bernard or his policies, you immediately resort to all-give-and-no-take defensiveness. :lol:

And who are you to judge what a "moderate" is? You think you have any credibility on that matter after baring your progressive purity tests?

Oh, we're not done yet.
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Ooooh, I'm scared. :lamo
 
Phys251 said:
All of three sponsored bills signed into law, two of which renamed post offices. :lol:

By contrast, milquetoast corporatist moderate conservative sellout hawk Klobuchar has over a hundred. :)
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I guess Klobuchar is going to be president then. She's gaining fast on the do-nothing progressive communist, Bernie Sanders.
 
Dans La Lune said:
There's no room to the left of Bernie Sanders among the candidates. Warren can not out-progressive Bernie. Warren has now said she's going to evaluate the Medicare For All numbers and put forth an analysis on how to pay for it. That would seem like a first step as a presidential candidate before endorsing Bernie's plan.

I'd put any amount of money on Warren moving to the right of Sanders on healthcare reform. She's a politician at heart, not a revolutionary. You may like that, and that's great, but Warren will see room in the moderate/center with Biden's decline. She will grow in power among the moderates, but decline among the progressives. Part of her base will break for Bernie. Warren will be cornered in fund-raising, as she has already made a pledge not to take corporate money.

Bernie's war-chest will grow, Warren's will wane. From there it will be death by a thousand cuts.

I like Warren in some respects, and would vote for her if she was the last person standing, but she's no Bernie.
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I definitely think the Dems should be looking at someone more moderate to run against Trump. I'm not convinced the big plans of Bernie are well liked by independents, though Larry David playing Bernie on SNL might be worth it.

Regardless, I'm not sure if the large progressive plan will play in Peoria, as it were.
 
Dans La Lune said:
I guess Klobuchar is going to be president then. She's gaining fast on the do-nothing progressive communist, Bernie Sanders.
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Yet again you struggle with reading comprehension so let me give you the help that you obviously need. :lol:

Saint Bernard: One sponsored bill that didn't involve renaming post offices signed into law. One.
Klobuchar: Over a hundred.

Now which one of these two senators got more done? :)
 
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