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Okay to solicit foreign governments to investigate opponents?

The AntiDonald said:
90% of republicans don't support what Trump did regarding Ukraine. Hell, they don't even support Trump. They are simply scared of Trump. They are scared of loosing their jobs.

I really believe that if Trump continues to blunder badly, it will start changing sentiment in the senate. Syria certainly has not helped. We'll know in a few months which way this all goes. Over 50% of the American people already support removing Trump. That's 3 times the amount in the Nixon investigations at this point of the house probe. Remember, the house has only been in an official impeachment inquiry for almost 3 weeks. Just give it time.

Just heard Trump overnight that the plans for the G-7 have been canceled. See what's happening. The pressure on Trump is on and working. !!!!!!!
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They aren't in any official impeachment inquiry whatsoever. On top of that, Pelosi literally announced a couple days ago that they weren't doing an impeachment inquiry vote.
 
Winston said:
All good if Biden/Bernie reaches out to the government of France, Germany, or, Australia and promises policy concessions if they open a criminal investigation into Trump?

I really don't give a ****. The era of Trump has torpedoed what was left of a sense of American morals. So, I say, go for it. If I was Biden I would start promising favors in exchange for McConnell and Trump's political heads on a platter.


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When did we have American morals to begin with? Is the term only relative to the party that conveniences you?

A few years ago, the NSA was caught listening in on 35 world leaders. (spying)

American tax payer dollars went to Israel to back a anti Netanyahu group.

Obama was interfering in the UK politics by admonishing the voters to stay in the EU.

Iranian elections in 1952 ring a bell?

I can go on and on with how America has played other countries.
 
Mr. Invisible said:
Just because someone is doing the wrong thing, doesn't give you the right to also do the wrong thing. This doesn't help any one and only contributes to the slide away from the republic.
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Ruth Bader Ginsburg recently gave a talk at Amherst College. She talked about how she believed this current “era” (without specifically mentioning Trump directly) was an “aberration” from the general American trajectory of values, and she was confident it was going to be self-correcting. I have heard that from several other prominent historians and scholars as well. Joe Biden has said that several times at his speeches. This may just be Trump country’s version of a bad case of heartburn after the election of the first African American President.

I am not sure if such assessments are just wishful thinking and just false comfort, or a realistic assessment. It’s clear there is a large group of really messed up voters in this country. If not Trump, they will give us...what next? Sarah Palin? Ann Coulter? Sean Hannity?

I Really hope RBG is right. We are capable of much better than this. At least it’s nice to think so, and keep trying to head in that direction. Sure we are not perfect. But we have always tried. Let’s not give up.
 
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ataraxia said:
Ruth Bader Ginsburg recently gave a talk at Amherst College. She talked about how she believed this current “era” (without specifically mentioning Trump directly) was an “aberration” from the general American trajectory of values, and she was confident it was going to be self-correcting. I have heard that from several other prominent historians and scholars as well. Joe Biden has said that several times at his speeches. This may just be Trump country’s version of a bad case of heartburn after the election of the first African American President.

I am not sure if such assessments are just wishful thinking and just false comfort, or a realistic assessment. It’s clear there is a large group of really messed up voters in this country. If not Trump, they will give us...what next? Sarah Palin? Ann Coulter? Sean Hannity?

I Really hope RBG is right. We are capable of much better than this. At least it’s nice to think so, and keep trying to head in that direction. Sure we are not perfect. But we have always tried. Let’s not give up.
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Given this country, both historically and ongoing, I would argue that she's wrong.
 
Mr. Invisible said:
Given this country, both historically and ongoing, I would argue that she's wrong.
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There has been a large part of this country which has never given up trying. Usually successfully, I might add. There is nothing that is inevitable about this.
 
Winston said:
What's wrong with any of that? Thought that was perfectly acceptable behavior.


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Mr. Invisible said:
It isn't though. And by saying that it's okay for others to do it, you are opening the door for much worse things to happen. For America's foreign policy to be bought and sold on the open market. That already happens to some degree, but that doesn't mean we need to expand it.
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I think Winston's point is that there is a massive double-standard on the right and that if they get to do it, there's no moral objection to our doing it too.
 
Taylor said:
Where were you when the era of Obama used the FBI and IRS against his opponents and torpedoed any sense of American morals?
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Phys251 said:
I think Winston's point is that there is a massive double-standard on the right and that if they get to do it, there's no moral objection to our doing it too.
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except that Trump doing it is still an opinion of the left, not a fact.
 
Hypothetical said:
except that Trump doing it is still an opinion of the left, not a fact.
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I was not talking to someone who is under the delusion that Trump's actions are fine. Please await the reply of the people I actually quoted. :)
 
Phys251 said:
I was not talking to someone who is under the delusion that Trump's actions are fine. Please await the reply of the people I actually quoted. :)
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Trump's actions to this point are fine. IF Biden did not want to be investigated he should not have done something shady as a member of the previous administration and then brag about it on tape.

after all, any investigation into that incident is about him as a member of the PREVIOUS administration, not as a candidate, therefore it is perfectly legit... and sure as hell of a lot better than the investigation started into Trump when HE was a candidate and ONLY a candidate.
 
Hypothetical said:
except that Trump doing it is still an opinion of the left, not a fact.
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Trump asking on national TV for Russian help in investigating his political rivals is not an opinion. Neither is The White House’s own released transcripts on blackmailing the Ukrainian president for dirt on his political rivals.
 
Hypothetical said:
Trump's actions to this point are fine.
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There are already 10 charges in the Mueller report which are just waiting to land him in jail the minute he steps out of the White House. This is not including the ongoing emoluments and SDNY investigations.
 
ataraxia said:
Trump asking on national TV for Russian help in investigating his political rivals is not an opinion. Neither is The White House’s own released transcripts on blackmailing the Ukrainian president for dirt on his political rivals.
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that's interesting because the transcripts do not show any asking for "dirt" and the TV thing was a quip. I'd say the first amendment gives him the right to make a quip on TV.
 
Mr. Invisible said:
"I agree it's wrong and opens up a Pandora's box. But, if the people in power fail to do anything about it and Americans fail to rebuke it, then it must be acceptable and normal behavior."

That ignores the fact that just because people don't do anything doesn't make negative behavior something okay to do. On top of that, Americans are actively rebuking it.

By allowing foreign governments to come in, you are putting yourself on the level of people you deem to be above.
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Screw all that higher ground stuff. The republicans ALWAYS play hardball, it's time the dems responded in kind. Stop bringing knives to gun fights.
 
ataraxia said:
There are already 10 charges in the Mueller report which are just waiting to land him in jail the minute he steps out of the White House. This is not including the ongoing emoluments and SDNY investigations.
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laughable.


And with that stupid comment, you prove that you have nothing of value to add.

DISMISSED
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and not worth a response.
 
Winston said:
All good if Biden/Bernie reaches out to the government of France, Germany, or, Australia and promises policy concessions if they open a criminal investigation into Trump?

I really don't give a ****. The era of Trump has torpedoed what was left of a sense of American morals. So, I say, go for it. If I was Biden I would start promising favors in exchange for McConnell and Trump's political heads on a platter.


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The FBI did it when they were spying on the Trump campaign. It's been assessed as being perfectly legal. So yeah, it's legal.

You didn't know all those investigations were going to come back to bite you in the ass. Did you?
 
Taylor said:
Oh, look! The guy who thought FDR put all of the Chinese in concentration camps during WWII is here with a meme -- :lamo
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Did he really say that?
 
Winston said:
All good if Biden/Bernie reaches out to the government of France, Germany, or, Australia and promises policy concessions if they open a criminal investigation into Trump?

I really don't give a ****. The era of Trump has torpedoed what was left of a sense of American morals. So, I say, go for it. If I was Biden I would start promising favors in exchange for McConnell and Trump's political heads on a platter.


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It's illegal, and the FEC chairman has said so more than once.
 
Winston said:
All good if Biden/Bernie reaches out to the government of France, Germany, or, Australia and promises policy concessions if they open a criminal investigation into Trump?

I really don't give a ****. The era of Trump has torpedoed what was left of a sense of American morals. So, I say, go for it. If I was Biden I would start promising favors in exchange for McConnell and Trump's political heads on a platter.


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Hillary and the DNC did it, and I don't see the left complaining.

If you're corrupt, should you become a candidate for elected office, say, the President, to insure your international corruption can't be looked into?
 
Winston said:
All good if Biden/Bernie reaches out to the government of France, Germany, or, Australia and promises policy concessions if they open a criminal investigation into Trump?

I really don't give a ****. The era of Trump has torpedoed what was left of a sense of American morals. So, I say, go for it. If I was Biden I would start promising favors in exchange for McConnell and Trump's political heads on a platter.


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You're forgetting (conveniently leaving out?) some important distinguishing details though.

Information is power in the diplomatic world and there's nothing illegal about asking. As Wikileaks showed us, there is constantly major dirty laundry being aired in the ambassadorial world through cables, which then become state secrets. Any edge a government can get, they will get, by obtaining dirt on their foreign opponents. This is normal. What's different here is that Trump used a foreign government to gain dirt on a domestic political opponent (internal to the U.S.), rather than get dirt on another government to advance the interests of U.S. foreign policy. You can't do that, not during an election.

What Trump did was use his Presidential power to block a $400 million aid package to the Ukraine in order to extort cooperation from its leaders that he could use to manipulate the U.S. election in his favor. The aid package was already approved by Congress. That's entirely different than one leader asking another leader for dirt on an opponent.

There are obviously way more details to the case which demonstrate why Trump should be impeached, but what I just wrote above is basic.
 
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