We think Trump and his supporters are crazy but this is normal in most of the world

My family is from a third world country and politics in most of the world is exactly like what we see from Trump and his supporters. Some popular celebrity or general gets elected and the people don't care that he's corrupt. They believe that he's less corrupt than the alternative. Sometimes it's worse and the opposition is some extremist communist of fascist group where any level of corruption is acceptable compared to the alternative.

Look at the Cuban Revolution. If you supported Batista you wouldn't care that he's corrupt because you don't want to see communists take over. If you support Castro you don't care that he's corrupt because you want to free the country from the chains of capitalism.

In most of the world, you see this sort of polarization and rampant corruption. It's the same in Ukraine. That's why it's almost impossible to deal with corruption.

Trump supporters know he's corrupt. They don't care. A corrupt Trump is better to them than a socialist Warren or Bernie. They don't want to see a SC full of liberals giving more gay rights.

Think about it this way. Imagine if Hillary were president and she was mired in corruption but she was a strong fighter for liberal views. Would you want her out of office knowing that Trump would be president?

SonOfDaedalus said:

My family is from a third world country and politics in most of the world is exactly like what we see from Trump and his supporters. Some popular celebrity or general gets elected and the people don't care that he's corrupt. They believe that he's less corrupt than the alternative. Sometimes it's worse and the opposition is some extremist communist of fascist group where any level of corruption is acceptable compared to the alternative.

Look at the Cuban Revolution. If you supported Batista you wouldn't care that he's corrupt because you don't want to see communists take over. If you support Castro you don't care that he's corrupt because you want to free the country from the chains of capitalism.

In most of the world, you see this sort of polarization and rampant corruption. It's the same in Ukraine. That's why it's almost impossible to deal with corruption.

Trump supporters know he's corrupt. They don't care. A corrupt Trump is better to them than a socialist Warren or Bernie. They don't want to see a SC full of liberals giving more gay rights.

Think about it this way. Imagine if Hillary were president and she was mired in corruption but she was a strong fighter for liberal views. Would you want her out of office knowing that Trump would be president?

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Last I heard Trump's approval is pretty high with Republicans.
Would you say the above to them in person?
Or is this simply a case of you acting real tough behind the protection of a computer screen?

SonOfDaedalus said:

My family is from a third world country and politics in most of the world is exactly like what we see from Trump and his supporters...

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So what ?

That has no relevance in the USA - the premier FIRST world country.

Hard to tell what your point is.
On one hand it looks like you believe that since corruption is so rampant in the rest of the world, it's normal to also have it here.
On the other, it looks like you believe its appropriate for people to consider serious corruption as good for government/laws, when the alternative is non-corrupt, but strongly opposed policy.
Then your final example is actually a choice between two corruption examples. corruption w/policy you like, vs corruption w/policy you don't like.

Serious corruption has priority on being eliminated over policy I strongly disagree with.
Our laws are supposed to remove corruption outright form the equation, so you DO NOT GET TO OVERRIDE THAT, just because you "like their policy". We just saw a number of high ranking Republicans indicted on federal charges, and they are gone now. the insider trading guy, the other one who was misusing funds, and the two FEMA people in charge of Puerto Rico assistance who was taking the money instead.
They are gone, for practical purposes, do you understand this?

Trump, in contrast, *only because he's POTUS*, is not gone. Our system has failed to remove him. President's for now, by design, apparently violate this standard that "no one is above the law". He most certainly is.
This is the source of the current corruption that seems to grow, and isn't going away like one would expect with this much evidence and outcry. We simply have to fix that, at some point.

People don't get to vote for someone who is in jail. Sorry, their "right" to choose is limited, juts like every, thing, else.
But right now, yes, Trump supporters can "corruptly" support Trump's corruption because they believe they benefit, by looking the other way with regards to his corruption. This is not a choice they get to reasonable make in *any other situations*, other than with POTUS. And that's just a technicality that should be remedied (along with pardon power limitations)

We have a partial way to address it, impeachment, but that is flawed.

trixare4kids said:

Last I heard Trump's approval is pretty high with Republicans.
Would you say the above to them in person?
Or is this simply a case of you acting real tough behind the protection of a computer screen?

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I don't talk politics with people I know unless we generally agree. I don't know many Trump supporters. The vast majority of well-educated people don't support Trump.

SonOfDaedalus said:

My family is from a third world country and politics in most of the world is exactly like what we see from Trump and his supporters. Some popular celebrity or general gets elected and the people don't care that he's corrupt. They believe that he's less corrupt than the alternative. Sometimes it's worse and the opposition is some extremist communist of fascist group where any level of corruption is acceptable compared to the alternative.

Look at the Cuban Revolution. If you supported Batista you wouldn't care that he's corrupt because you don't want to see communists take over. If you support Castro you don't care that he's corrupt because you want to free the country from the chains of capitalism.

In most of the world, you see this sort of polarization and rampant corruption. It's the same in Ukraine. That's why it's almost impossible to deal with corruption.

Trump supporters know he's corrupt. They don't care. A corrupt Trump is better to them than a socialist Warren or Bernie. They don't want to see a SC full of liberals giving more gay rights.

Think about it this way. Imagine if Hillary were president and she was mired in corruption but she was a strong fighter for liberal views. Would you want her out of office knowing that Trump would be president?

Click to expand...

In this alternate universe in which Hillary were President and mired in corruption, if she were impeached and convicted then her vice president would become President.

Mach said:

Hard to tell what your point is.
On one hand it looks like you believe that since corruption is so rampant in the rest of the world, it's normal to also have it here.
On the other, it looks like you believe its appropriate for people to consider serious corruption as good for government/laws, when the alternative is non-corrupt, but strongly opposed policy.
Then your final example is actually a choice between two corruption examples. corruption w/policy you like, vs corruption w/policy you don't like.

Serious corruption has priority on being eliminated over policy I strongly disagree with.
Our laws are supposed to remove corruption outright form the equation, so you DO NOT GET TO OVERRIDE THAT, just because you "like their policy". We just saw a number of high ranking Republicans indicted on federal charges, and they are gone now. the insider trading guy, the other one who was misusing funds, and the two FEMA people in charge of Puerto Rico assistance who was taking the money instead.
They are gone, for practical purposes, do you understand this?

Trump, in contrast, *only because he's POTUS*, is not gone. Our system has failed to remove him. President's for now, by design, apparently violate this standard that "no one is above the law". He most certainly is.
This is the source of the current corruption that seems to grow, and isn't going away like one would expect with this much evidence and outcry. We simply have to fix that, at some point.

People don't get to vote for someone who is in jail. Sorry, their "right" to choose is limited, juts like every, thing, else.
But right now, yes, Trump supporters can "corruptly" support Trump's corruption because they believe they benefit, by looking the other way with regards to his corruption. This is not a choice they get to reasonable make in *any other situations*, other than with POTUS. And that's just a technicality that should be remedied (along with pardon power limitations)

We have a partial way to address it, impeachment, but that is flawed.

Click to expand...

The two corrupt Republicans who were prosecuted were prosecuted under Sessions. Trump was angry about that.

"Two long running, Obama era, investigations of two very popular Republican Congressmen were brought to a well publicized charge, just ahead of the Mid-Terms, by the Jeff Sessions Justice Department," Trump tweeted. "Two easy wins now in doubt because there is not enough time. Good job Jeff..."

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If Trump could get prosecutors loyal to him, they wouldn't be prosecuted. And keep in mind at least one of those Republicans was reelected AFTER they were indicted. The voters didn't care that they were corrupt. Just like Trump doesn't care. This perfectly illustrates my point.

On the liberal side, I can give you the example of Marrion Barry. He was a mayor caught on tape smoking crack. He got elected after returning.

I'm saying that in America we've been isolated from how politics works in most of the world. So the behavior we're seeing seems incomprehensible. It's hard to understand how Trump supporters could still support Trump despite how obviously corrupt he is. But it's common in most of the world.

And this is why corruption is so difficult to deal with in politics. If political groups are polarized enough, corruption doesn't matter to the voters and it becomes rampant.

SonOfDaedalus said:

I don't talk politics with people I know unless we generally agree. I don't know many Trump supporters. The vast majority of well-educated people don't support Trump.

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Hey, maybe you guys can implement a voting test after you take the guns and tax exemptions.:lamo

Cardinal said:

In this alternate universe in which Hillary were President and mired in corruption, if she were impeached and convicted then her vice president would become President.

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But people would fear that allowing Hillary to be impeached would weaken the Vice president (who may be a poor candidate) in the next election.

Republicans believe that Trump is their best hope for remaining in power and controlling the SC. Pence has no chance. Who would replace Trump? They don't want an "establishment" candidate.

Trump is a horrible president but he's able to motivate the base like few people.

Rich2018 said:

So what ?

That has no relevance in the USA - the premier FIRST world country.

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I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.

My only point really is that the incomprehensible behavior we're seeing is pretty common in most of the world.

Look at Russia. Putin is totally corrupt. He's able to murder his opponents in broad daylight. The people don't care.

Why? They think that Putin is better than the chaos they had before Putin.

SonOfDaedalus said:

But people would fear that allowing Hillary to be impeached would weaken the Vice president (who may be a poor candidate) in the next election.

Republicans believe that Trump is their best hope for remaining in power and controlling the SC. Pence has no chance. Who would replace Trump? They don't want an "establishment" candidate.

Trump is a horrible president but he's able to motivate the base like few people.

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I'm not sure Trump's base is the same as the Republican base.

SonOfDaedalus said:

My family is from a third world country and politics in most of the world is exactly like what we see from Trump and his supporters. Some popular celebrity or general gets elected and the people don't care that he's corrupt. They believe that he's less corrupt than the alternative. Sometimes it's worse and the opposition is some extremist communist of fascist group where any level of corruption is acceptable compared to the alternative.

Look at the Cuban Revolution. If you supported Batista you wouldn't care that he's corrupt because you don't want to see communists take over. If you support Castro you don't care that he's corrupt because you want to free the country from the chains of capitalism.

In most of the world, you see this sort of polarization and rampant corruption. It's the same in Ukraine. That's why it's almost impossible to deal with corruption.

Trump supporters know he's corrupt. They don't care. A corrupt Trump is better to them than a socialist Warren or Bernie. They don't want to see a SC full of liberals giving more gay rights.

Think about it this way. Imagine if Hillary were president and she was mired in corruption but she was a strong fighter for liberal views. Would you want her out of office knowing that Trump would be president?

Click to expand...

The explanation you gave is generally correct but comparatively speaking, the United States was the least corrupt and was the country everyone wanted to be like and live in. It had the most justice and the most opportunity of all the countries. That is what this country was until Trump came to be.

Now we are no better than anyone else and even below some countries like perhaps Germany and France.

It is sad when you lose a lofty position and take your place in the gutter.

veritas1 said:

Hey, maybe you guys can implement a voting test after you take the guns and tax exemptions.:lamo

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Scare tactics. There was a lower floor. Who knew.

ecofarm said:

Scare tactics. There was a lower floor. Who knew.

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Just echoing the Dem candidates.

veritas1 said:

Just echoing the Dem candidates.

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No.

First was fake news. Then was CT. Then was lying about members personally. Now we have scare tactics.

If fails were hits you'd be batting a thousand.

trixare4kids said:

Last I heard Trump's approval is pretty high with Republicans.
Would you say the above to them in person?
Or is this simply a case of you acting real tough behind the protection of a computer screen?

Click to expand...

There aren't enough of them left to intimidate anyone. Smallest "major group. Third after independents and democrats.

So eighty percent of twenty percent is really only twenty percent of the electorate

But that 80% sounded so good you came here crowing it like it was some kind of victory. And get mad when we point out your unicorn is just a cow with a dildo stuck to its head.

SonOfDaedalus said:

If Trump could get prosecutors loyal to him, they wouldn't be prosecuted. And keep in mind at least one of those Republicans was reelected AFTER they were indicted.

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The investigation still worked against him, creates a lame-duck/radioactive effect on other Republicans who do not derive much benefit from any single senator, I think he lost his chair position..he was weakened dramatically.
Further, if he's found guilty and is sentenced, he's gone outright. Not the case with POTUS, in any way shape or form.

On the liberal side, I can give you the example of Marrion Barry. He was a mayor caught on tape smoking crack. He got elected after returning.

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Still not a president. A politician did drugs? Oh my, that's not rampant corruption. It's still possibly to elect a corrupt senator, for example. But you can still investigate them, and can still remove them for crimes, if they aren't lame-ducked or otherwise limited due to the charges.

I'm saying that in America we've been isolated from how politics works in most of the world. So the behavior we're seeing seems incomprehensible. It's hard to understand how Trump supporters could still support Trump despite how obviously corrupt he is. But it's common in most of the world.

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How old are you though? We've had Nixon, we had the Contra scandal, and the Iraq war, etc. Even earlier history is filled with corruption far worse. We learn about America's corrupt past in school.
No, for me, the shock is that given all we've seen from Trump, the presidency allows it continue past what would be tolerated in any-other-sphere of life.

And this is why corruption is so difficult to deal with in politics. If political groups are polarized enough, corruption doesn't matter to the voters and it becomes rampant.

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I know what you mean, but that's really just "corruption" in general. Corruption by it nature, "corrupts". You corrupt a population, its corrupted. If everyone accepts corruption, it's corrupted. That makes it hard to solve political corruption, when the population is use to paying bribes and paying for influence...it becomes normalized.
We counter that with laws first, which leads to...hopefully, a less corrupt society. We use to have organized crime all over SOD. How did we fix that? Laws, and law enforcement individuals who went out and took them down, and sent a message.
Our prosecutors had the power (laws sufficient to do the job), and the freedom (from partisan politics like Barr), to pursue criminals. The presidency is immune from that, and in cases that we get a corrupt president, it becomes a 4 year nightmare. That's not normal.

if we put the right laws in place, and ensure the structure of enforcing them is similarly resilient to corrupt influence, it can reduce it to a dull roar.

That's my feeling on it anyway...I could be totally wrong

ecofarm said:

No.

First was fake news. Then was CT. Then was lying about members personally. Now we have scare tactics.

If fails were hits you'd be batting a thousand.

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Oh, the Dems haven't babbled about gun bans and phony "buy backs"? Bozo wasn't blubbering about taking away church tax exemptions the other day? You and reality don't seem to mix.

ecofarm said:

I'm not sure Trump's base is the same as the Republican base.

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I think maybe only 15% of people are genuine principled conservatives. They're the intellectuals of the party. They were the elites and were able to control the party by throwing the social conservatives and racists a few bones. But Trump took over the party by speaking directly to the social conservatives "Merry Christmas" "Muslim are evil" and the racists "illegal immigrant invasion." Now it's hard to imagine the elites getting control again.

After Trump, a new Trump will emerge preaching the same hateful message about illegal immigrants and Muslims.

SonOfDaedalus said:

I think maybe only 15% of people are genuine principled conservatives. They're the intellectuals of the party. They were the elites and were able to control the party by throwing the social conservatives and racists a few bones. But Trump took over the party by speaking directly to the social conservatives "Merry Christmas" "Muslim are evil" and the racists "illegal immigrant invasion." Now it's hard to imagine the elites getting control again.

After Trump, a new Trump will emerge preaching the same hateful message about illegal immigrants and Muslims.

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That's grim.

While intellectuals might not hold previous sway, I believe philosophy, and not personality, remains the heart of conservatives.

SonOfDaedalus said:

I don't talk politics with people I know unless we generally agree. I don't know many Trump supporters. The vast majority of well-educated people don't support Trump.

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Well educated? Don't support Trump? This is important just why?

-VySky

SonOfDaedalus said:

My family is from a third world country and politics in most of the world is exactly like what we see from Trump and his supporters. Some popular celebrity or general gets elected and the people don't care that he's corrupt. They believe that he's less corrupt than the alternative. Sometimes it's worse and the opposition is some extremist communist of fascist group where any level of corruption is acceptable compared to the alternative.

Look at the Cuban Revolution. If you supported Batista you wouldn't care that he's corrupt because you don't want to see communists take over. If you support Castro you don't care that he's corrupt because you want to free the country from the chains of capitalism.

In most of the world, you see this sort of polarization and rampant corruption. It's the same in Ukraine. That's why it's almost impossible to deal with corruption.

Trump supporters know he's corrupt. They don't care. A corrupt Trump is better to them than a socialist Warren or Bernie. They don't want to see a SC full of liberals giving more gay rights.

Think about it this way. Imagine if Hillary were president and she was mired in corruption but she was a strong fighter for liberal views. Would you want her out of office knowing that Trump would be president?

Click to expand...

I'd say you covered the topic with a one molecule thick analysis - but they'd have to be small molecules.

Mach said:

We counter that with laws first, which leads to...hopefully, a less corrupt society.

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We have an independent judiciary that helps prosecute the laws. But once political polarization reaches a certain point, even the prosecutors are political.

The Philippines is a democracy with all kinds of checks and balances but Duterte is very popular so he can have senators who oppose him arrested on trumped-up charges of corruption. Xi's opponents are in prison for corruption.

Now we see Trump using his office to have Biden investigated.

But again, the point of my post was simply to explain that the way Trump supporters are behaving is very common in most of the world. And if political polarization is strong enough, the party in power can not only avoid prosecution but prosecute its opponents for corruption.

Bullseye said:

I'd say you covered the topic with a one molecule thick analysis - but they'd have to be small molecules.

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Oh, but he's so "well educated".

SonOfDaedalus said:

My family is from a third world country and politics in most of the world is exactly like what we see from Trump and his supporters. Some popular celebrity or general gets elected and the people don't care that he's corrupt. They believe that he's less corrupt than the alternative. Sometimes it's worse and the opposition is some extremist communist of fascist group where any level of corruption is acceptable compared to the alternative.

Look at the Cuban Revolution. If you supported Batista you wouldn't care that he's corrupt because you don't want to see communists take over. If you support Castro you don't care that he's corrupt because you want to free the country from the chains of capitalism.

In most of the world, you see this sort of polarization and rampant corruption. It's the same in Ukraine. That's why it's almost impossible to deal with corruption.

Trump supporters know he's corrupt. They don't care. A corrupt Trump is better to them than a socialist Warren or Bernie. They don't want to see a SC full of liberals giving more gay rights.

Think about it this way. Imagine if Hillary were president and she was mired in corruption but she was a strong fighter for liberal views. Would you want her out of office knowing that Trump would be president?

Click to expand...

Leaving aside the anti-Trump BS, corruption is a way of life for most of the world, even in most of Europe. Enduring refusal to tolerate corruption is more or less unique to Northwestern Europeans. During the early years of the last century, we had a serious problem with organized crime in this country, mainly due to Italian immigration. But we closed the borders in 24, and still had the moral strength to assimilate the Italians and impose our values on them. Today, we are being overrun by people far more unlike us than Italians, and we have neither the immigration controls nor the moral fiber to impose Anglo-Saxon values on them. So we had all better get used to corruption, because it will only get worse here on out.