Why do we need Bernie, and not another Democrat?

Praxas said:

If it’s between trump or Bernie, I’ll vote Bernie. There isn’t a dem candidate in the current field of candidates that I wouldn’t vote for over trump at this point. I didn’t vote for Obama on his second term but there is no way I’m letting a vote go towards trump on my end.

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Craig234 said:

Except that he's the most effective member of Congress at getting his amendments passed. The opposite of your assumed but stated as fact opinion. Facts. You think there's a reason I asked you about whether you are actually informed in your assertions? That's why 'electability' is such a misunderstood attribute. Now, will you go read a little and update your opinions?

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Surrealistik said:

Put it this way: I certainly wouldn't accuse Warren of being corrupt, but I would accuse her of being significantly more malleable and easily swayed, and I don't fully trust that she will remain true to her principles and policy where they clash with her party loyalties.

I like Warren, but I definitely don't think she's in the same league as Bernie in terms of being solid and unshakable in her convictions and beliefs and being an adamant fighter for them.

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SoCal said:

If Sanders is polling the best out of the all Democratic candidates against Don just prior to the primary, I hope he wins the nomination. But I've said for a long time that he won't be the one to see his policies enacted. Proposing great policies and being great at selling them are two different things. On the practical side, being 78 years old and having had a recent heart attack aside, I believe his personality and cranky demeanor hurts the Democrats chances.

And no, I didn't predict a Trump win, my predictions are just my opinions based on my interest in politics and being a news junkie. Although there's a well known legend that precedes me wherever I travel; "So goes SoCal, so goes the nation", in reality I can't get them all right. :2razz:



You have a good point, Sanders has been at it a very long time without wavering. But his inability to get so few of his proposals passed indicates to me that they either go too far too fast, or he's not a good salesman. Given how horrendous Numnuts is, I think he could/would win the general, I just believe one of the other Democrats running gives us better odds. I also believe it's a moot point, as I predict he won't win the nomination...

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3leftsdoo said:

Good OP.

But Bernie was politically assassinated by the Democrats in 2016, and it's continuing to cost them in 2020.

The gross betrayal then, and arson by impeachment now, will ultimately destroy the Democrat Party.

The only thing which can save that party is the removal of sociopathic career criminals like Pelosi, Schiff, Schumer & the like, a halt to the criminal impeachment farce, and an honest, thorough examination of their extreme crimes in 2016 - 2019.

Until then, it's all whistling past the graveyard.

:hm

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SoCal said:

We all believe we make informed assertions, of course some are obviously more informed than others, cult members for example. We can both look at the same facts, proposals and history of a candidate and come away with completely opposite opinions. For me, what counts is getting a Democrat elected, any Democrat. The differences between all the Democratic candidates are infinitesimal compared to the differences between them and Numnuts.

But I haven't heard about any of his major, bold, ground breaking or life changing proposals being enacted. After reading your post, I read a little more about him, but didn't find anything that changed my opinion. I know Wiki has some issues, but the page on his positions, lists proposal after proposal that either originated with him or ones he signed onto (90% of which, I agree with), that were never passed.

The Liberals, progressives and socialists who will refuse to vote for the Democrat who finally wins the nomination, pose as great of a threat to America as your average cult member. That's why I will support and as I'm retired and have the time, might volunteer to help our candidate, including Sanders if he wins the nomination...

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Obscurity said:

I dislike anyone who gets the WFP nod after her daughter's Think Tank gave them $45,000 USD in 2018 after having -never- donated to them before.

Warren is being dishonest about her M4A plan and I doubt she would actually fight for it, at all.

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Surrealistik said:

I agree, she's shaping up to be an Obama 2.0, albeit with an actual track record of opposition/antipathy to monied interests and Wall Street to support her claims, despite some eyebrow raising votes.

Still an order of magnitude better than every alternative other than Bernie however.

Bernie's my guy to the bitter end, but I wouldn't be nearly as despondent over Warren being nominee as I would were it Clinton or Biden.

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Surrealistik said:

...Moreover, no amount of salesmanship on the part of one Senator is going to defy the entirety of the Beltway's entrenched and monied interests; the same interests that compelled Obama to abandon singlepayer and ultimately pass a Republican healthcare plan that was later gutted of even its public option (thanks to notorious health insurance shill Joe Lieberman); a pitiful, tepid half-measure that ultimately became to be known as Obamacare/ACA. Despite the Dems solidly controlling every branch of government, we ended up with a pathetic healthcare plan that was not only the brainchild of a conservative, Republican thinktank, but a gutted variant at that; what an absolute farce. This to me doesn't at all suggest Bernie goes too far too fast, as that Washington has a serious problem with mundane corruption, legislative and corporate capture, and the vastly disproportionate influence of the wealthy.

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SoCal said:

I agree about one Senator's inability to affect our entrenched and moneyed interests. I give Sanders a lot of credit for pushing the Democrats towards a more ambitious agenda, we just have different views on how to get them enacted. You see incremental progress as a sellout, while our history tells me it's the only way to get where we want to go. You see Obama's ACA as a farce, while I see 20 million more Americans receiving healthcare as a win. The Repubs might have reduced its effectiveness, but America is better off now than before we had the ACA.

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I agree, "Washington has a serious problem with mundane corruption, legislative and corporate capture, and the vastly disproportionate influence of the wealthy". Besides the ignorance and racism of Repubs, it's the reason we haven't met many of our ultimate goals. I just don't see either of these roadblocks ever going away, all we can do is fight them and take the wins we can achieve, however small...

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Surrealistik said:

I agree, she's shaping up to be an Obama 2.0, albeit with an actual track record of opposition/antipathy to monied interests and Wall Street to support her claims, despite some eyebrow raising votes.

Still an order of magnitude better than every alternative other than Bernie however.

Bernie's my guy to the bitter end, but I wouldn't be nearly as despondent over Warren being nominee as I would were it Clinton or Biden.

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SoCal said:

You see incremental progress as a sellout, while our history tells me it's the only way to get where we want to go. You see Obama's ACA as a farce, while I see 20 million more Americans receiving healthcare as a win. The Repubs might have reduced its effectiveness, but America is better off now than before we had the ACA.

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Obscurity said:

FFS the only graveyard here is your odorous mentality on impeachment, and you know it, hence why you have -repeatedly- dodged my direct challenges to you on the subject.

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Obscurity said:

Inability to get proposals passed?

Don't swallow the load.

Bernie Sanders' accomplishments - Occasional Planet

And that's an OLD article, that didn't include the Yemen resolution, or the other achievments like pressuring Amazon to increase its minimum wage.

Sanders has a laundry list of achievements. Don't swallow what the neolibs lie peddle.

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Craig234 said:

It's not because of his healthcare policy, his student debt policy, his minimum wage policy, or other specific policies. Those might be good reasons for him to win, but they're not the main reason.

The reason isn't about any specific policy this election. It's about the direction of the country, which took a wrong turn with Nixon/Reagan, toward plutocracy, where all the economic wealth was shifted away from the American people and to the few most wealthy - and power followed, to where our democracy is heavily corrupt.

We need a change in direction for the country, not shifting some numbers here and there as we continue the plutocracy.

And only Bernie seems to really understand that and to want to change the direction of the country back to its traditional values, of government that serves the people.

Democracy is more and more attacked, destroyed, weakened the longer the plutocracy continues, as the courts are packed with plutocrats who are re-writing the constitution (e.g., money is speech) to cement the plutocracy in place and remove the people's power.

Bernie is a historic candidate. More need to understand that. Electing him won't fix things alone - as he says, that's the start to fixing things if the people have a political revolution as well as electing him to lead it.

Words like 'revolution' are scary to people, but they shouldn't be. We had a 'bad' revolution, the 'Reagan revolution', which put us on plutocracy.

This is a return to normal American values - when a 10% increase in the economy tends to benefit everyone 10%, instead of only the most rich taking it all, as they have for decades, leading to record inequality.

We can't afford to keep the same thing we've been doing 40 years going - electing fast plutocracy under Republicans and slower plutocracy under centrist Democrats. The American people should get the big increase in wealth and power that would come from Bernie's policies as we restore democracy.

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SoCal said:

I grant you, he has passed many helpful amendments and has accomplished many great things, including helping Amazon employees. But I was referring to, "his major, bold, ground breaking or life changing proposals being enacted".

"...Of course, amendments are just one of the ways lawmakers press their agendas. Sanders has had much less luck with passing bills.
During his 25 years in Congress, Sanders introduced 324 bills, three of which became law...."

What do you want me to say? He's a swell guy. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe he'll ever convince enough Americans, for whatever reason, to vote him into the WH. His proposed policies are groundbreaking and I don't doubt that many will eventually be passed, helping all Americans.

For example, we both know a Medicare for all program would deliver the least expensive and most effective healthcare. But why force all the Americans who like their employers insurance into a system they will resent in the next few years? Why not offer Medicare to anyone who wants it, while allowing others to decline. It wouldn't be as effective, it would cost more, but it has a much better chance of getting enacted. It's After voters start seeing their family and friends enjoying the advantages of Medicare, is when proposals requiring everyone's participation should be promoted. So I stand by my comment, he proposes to much to soon...

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Craig234 said:

I agree. On Warren, here's the thing. Her basic views/policies - she is a former Republican - are frickin very basic. Her biggest claim to fame is the consumer protection agency, but what did it do? It attacked financial fraud. How controversial, how boldly progressive is that? How much does that do against our plutocratic policies?

It was a good cause. And she did very well at it. It saved the American people tens of billions. But in terms of progressive values, where was it? Consumer economic fraud. Not exactly cutting edge revolution. She is great at explaining and arguing for basic moral things like why fraud is wrong - better than Obama, better than Bernie, I'm not sure anyone is as good at that. But actually championing the revolution we need? Not so clear. And that is critical.

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Surrealistik said:

...with Obama never having confronted him about it; absolutely pathetic and inexcusable:...

...Or we can vote in someone genuinely strong and incorruptible like Bernie who like FDR will use his bully pulpit and every ounce of his power to fight those entrenched interests and their shills at every turn, and will work tirelessly to pass legislation and law that actually benefits his constituents. Enough is enough.

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Craig234 said:

Imagine you own a store, and an employee is stealing from you so much that you are losing money every month.

One option is to have them work fewer hours so they steal less, but you're still losing money. Or reduce their salary to compensate a little, but you're still losing money. Options like those might be 'good' or 'improvements', but they're not enough. That's the situation we're in with our plutocracy.

Electing centrist Democrats who go a little slower while still driving the country down the road to plutocracy, Clinton and Obama, are not enough. That's the house burning down, and they manage to get a few more items out to safety. The house is still burning.

The ACA is not a farce. It's a huge accomplishment and an important first step. It's saved many lives and helped tens of millions. But it's not enough. Thousands still lose their lives every year for lack of healthcare. Costs are still twice the rest of the world. Medical bankruptcy is still a big problem.

We can't afford to continue this 'horrible plutocratic Republicans and a little less bad plutocratic Democratic centrists'. Our democracy is hugely corrupted and it will get a lot worse if we elect only another Democratic centrist. Bernie is the only candidate trying to return the country to its traditional democracy and to have a lot more economic justice, not jut a bit less plutocracy. He shouldn't be the only one, but he is.

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Redress said:

The only thing I need from Sanders is for him to lose. I am not a fan of populist demagogues.

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SoCal said:

The reason Trump can not and will not corrupt our entire government is because we have enough loyal American patriots in government who've dedicated their lives serving America. They will eventually be Numnuts' undoing. It's the opposite for an 'incorruptible' president.

The reason Obama or Sanders can't pass legislation and law that benefits his constituents as much as we'd like is because we have enough disloyal American crooks serving who've dedicated their lives seeking power and enriching themselves. They will eventually keep Americas from receiving what they deserve.

I used to be an idealist, most liberals go through that phase and some never grow out of it. eace But I've found that you need to take what you can get. I've seen a few Democratic presidents come and go in my lifetime and Obama was the best of them. In the future, you might look back fondly on the Obama years...

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Surrealistik said:

Only Biden has ever really been competition for Sanders among the general population in terms of electability per head to heads against Trump; no one else has come consistently close to his numbers. If you're a news junkie, I would have thought you'd have known this.

Further, Bernie has done plenty during his time in Washington as Amendment King; naturally he hasn't been able to get his more ambitious ideas passed given the obvious pay to play corruption that is the norm in Washington and generally has been for nearly half a century at this point. It should also be noted that his ideas have only recently entered the Overton window and realm of acceptability in the corridors of power; something he is about singlehandedly responsible for, along with commanding by and large, the agenda of the Democratic party, which now echos his core ideas in various different shades.

Moreover, no amount of salesmanship on the part of one Senator is going to defy the entirety of the Beltway's entrenched and monied interests; the same interests that compelled Obama to abandon singlepayer and ultimately pass a Republican healthcare plan that was later gutted of even its public option (thanks to notorious health insurance shill Joe Lieberman); a pitiful, tepid half-measure that ultimately became to be known as Obamacare/ACA. Despite the Dems solidly controlling every branch of government, we ended up with a pathetic healthcare plan that was not only the brainchild of a conservative, Republican thinktank, but a gutted variant at that; what an absolute farce. This to me doesn't at all suggest Bernie goes too far too fast, as that Washington has a serious problem with mundane corruption, legislative and corporate capture, and the vastly disproportionate influence of the wealthy.

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Moot said:

But if Bernie's ideas are too forward thinking to get the support of congress then what do you expect him to get accomplished if president?

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Surrealistik said:

"If you aim for the stars you might hit the moon."

Obama often tried to negotiate by starting with half a loaf and invariably got crumbs in the end. I can trust Sanders not to make such a glaring mistake.

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