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A Republican problem.

Captain Adverse said:
Actually IMO it is the reporting on the level of lies via the news media we now see that we think is different from what has come before, not the actual lying.
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And you're wrong.

The truism that "all politician's lie" is based on the knowledge that elected officials and their associates knowingly make false statements to the public all the time. IMO a current good public example on the Democrat side would be Representative Adam Schiff.
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It's not a "truism", it's a falsism - a popular phrase, but false. Schiff is not a good example; he didn't lie. But yes, there are times some Democrats have lied.

However, that amorphous group known as "the people" often get their interpretations of such lying via the news media, which historically is also no slouch when it comes to publishing falsehoods.
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Actually, the legitimate new media has a very good record on not lying, though it's not perfect.

Yellow journalism, i.e. "the use of lurid features and sensationalized news in newspaper publishing to attract readers and increase circulation,"* is nothing new. With the expansion of media via radio, television, and not the internet, this is occurring with more and more frequency as news media compete for views to sell advertising.
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You're lumping a lot together that doesn't belong lumped together. Things have improved a lot since the days of "yellow journalism", something that was named over a century ago.

Coming back to Trump and his "lying," we have many examples where the news media have created fictions out of whole cloth via lurid headlines to push the meme of "Trump's 10000 lies." His response is to call such stories and those who purvey them "fake news."
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The vast majority of reporting on trump's lies is accurate. His response calling them "fake news" is him lying again. That's what he does, constantly. He is a pathological liar.

The truth is that both news media and politicians do lie. We ALL do from time to time for all sorts of reasons. Trump is no exception. He is simply the current target of public focus.
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False equivalency, and trump is very different.

Now IMHO if you want to gauge the respect of the people for Trump, one need only examine those "rallies" he has regularly been involved in. Seems to me that despite all reports otherwise, he still has significant "respect" from a sizeable portion of "the people."
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A shrinking minority. And not everyone who 'supports' him respects him.

Bottom line, Trump often engages in puffery and exaggeration. He also make misstatements based on faulty knowledge. Yes, he also "lies." But respect has more to do with public reporting about him than it does with facts.
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Your argument is garbled. trump is despised by many for being a pathological liar, and a narcissist, and a sociopath, and his crimes, and a lot more.
 
aociswundumho said:
No it's not. Democracies are still "authoritarian" in that you can easily be imprisoned for actions which do not harm or even endanger other people. All democracy does is allow you to help choose which authoritarians you wish to be ruled by.
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Sorry you can't tell the difference between a dictator and the people.
 
aociswundumho said:
Makes no difference to the people being subjugated.
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It makes a huge difference, regarding the type and quantity of subjugation that happens. I suspect I can't help you, that you are too far off from reality.
 
iguanaman said:
Except that was not even a lie it was a misconception on Obama's part. He did not realize that he had no power to keep that promise. It is and always has been the insurers who determine those things not the govt. If it was up to him he would have kept that promise. It is also significant that that is the only "lie" you can mention. Trump's count is over 10,000 lies since taking office.
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He signed the ****ing bill didn't he? God, own up once in a damn blue moon.
 
aociswundumho said:
No, I'm just pointing out that you are sugar-coating democracy, because in the end it doesn't matter if it's one tyrant or a thousand working together.
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So, the US when it was founded and King George III, the same. Hitler and Canada, the same. Mao and Hong Kong, the same. Napolean and France under democracy, the same. The Shah and Iran under democracy before the Shah, the same. I didn't 'sugar coat' democracy. You are oblivious to the difference between a dictator and democracy, which is imperfect, but far from the same.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
That's a broken campaign promise about legislation that wasn't yet written or negotiated.

How is that different from, "repeal and replace ObamaCare"?
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He got on national television and repeated it to sell the idea of the bill to make sure they got the votes. Don't try revisionist bull****.
 
Torus34 said:
A democratic government -- of the people, by the people and for the people -- is expected to have the respect of the people. If it does not, it may not long survive and will be replaced, perhaps by some form of dictatorship.

The United States of America's federal government is presently headed by President of the United States Donald Trump. He is not given to being truthful* in his statements to the American people. A cottage industry has grown up in debunking his claims. There's also a number of people who routinely go to bat for him, proposing reasons for his statements.

Be that as it is, President Trump is the head of the Republican Party. In the absence of strong condemnation from the members of the party, one is led to believe that continual statements of conspiracy theories and untruths is characteristic of the party and its members.

And yes, politicians lie. This has been true for as long as there have been politicians. It it the level we now see that is different from what has come before. To borrow a phrase from the I Love Lucy show, the Republicans have some 'splainin' to do -- or accept the mantle.

* I've chosen this circumlocution to avoid using the word 'lying'.
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Trump was elected by the people. Secret hearings that nobody but democrats can see the evidence of is not democratic. It is more a 15th century Inquisition than inquiry.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
Your argument is basically, "everyone lies."

False Equivalence: A Primer
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Please don't alter my post when you quote it.

I never said "Is there a euphemism for lying that you didn't use. Oh, you forgot "truthful people" and "alternative" facts."

Giving YOU the benefit of the doubt, it was probably a part of your response.

No I did not make any false equivalence. There is a significant difference between willful lying and mistakes of memory, misunderstandings, and bragging.

As for puffery and exaggeration? Yes, those might fall under "lying," but there is no intent to harm.

Meanwhile, all of those things I've just listed are done by many self-righteous members of this Forum. So quick to blame, so hesitant to accept blame.

My argument is not that "everyone lies," that is a fact of life. My argument is that people are quick to point out faults in others while pretending no fault of their own or in those THEY support. :shrug:
 
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Captain Adverse said:
Please don't alter my post when you quote it.

I never said "Is there a euphemism for lying that you didn't use. Oh, you forgot "truthful people" and "alternative" facts."

Giving YOU the benefit of the doubt, it was probably a part of your response.

No I did not make any false equivalence. There is a significant difference between willful lying and mistakes of memory, misunderstandings, and bragging.

As for puffery and exaggeration? Yes, those might fall under "lying," but there is no intent to harm.

Meanwhile, all of those things I've just listed are done by many self-righteous members of this Forum. So quick to blame, so hesitant to accept blame.

My argument is not that "everyone lies," that is a fact of life. My argument is that people are quick to point out faults in others while pretending no fault of their own. :shrug:
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I apologize for misquoting you. You're correct that was part of my response.

So, your argument is everyone has faults?

I'll give you an example of one of these "exaggerations." Trump said that the CEO of U.S. Steel called him and told him they were going to open 6 new plants. Reporters asked U.S. Steel. They tactfully denied it. U.S. Steel never opened new plants. They're closing some.

Is that an acceptable lie for a president in your mind?

Trump has said there was no quid pro quo. If all his henchmen testify that there was a quid pro quo, is that just another mere human fault?

Nixon had faults. We all have faults. But not all faults are the same. And some faults are unacceptable in a president.
 
OpportunityCost said:
He got on national television and repeated it to sell the idea of the bill to make sure they got the votes. Don't try revisionist bull****.
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It's still a campaign promise that he was unable to fulfill. Voters should know that a president is not a king and he can't promise anything regarding legislation. It has to be negotiated in Congress.

Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall. He claimed he would deport 8 million illegal immigrants. He said he would build a wall with a big beautiful door.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
It's still a campaign promise that he was unable to fulfill. Voters should know that a president is not a king and he can't promise anything regarding legislation. It has to be negotiated in Congress.

Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall. He claimed he would deport 8 million illegal immigrants. He said he would build a wall with a big beautiful door.
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Healthcare reform is a half and half. He did not get the vote he wanted, but he did kill one of the worst problems with ACA.

Mexico pays for troops on the border. That counts as a promise fulfilled. The wall is started and "Finish the Wall" is the new chant.

Well begun is also a filled promise. Not making a serious attempt counts as failure.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
It's still a campaign promise that he was unable to fulfill. Voters should know that a president is not a king and he can't promise anything regarding legislation. It has to be negotiated in Congress.

Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall. He claimed he would deport 8 million illegal immigrants. He said he would build a wall with a big beautiful door.
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Look, you are trying to avoid the point. It's not new, it has precedent. A border wall isn't 1/8th of the economy either.

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
I apologize for misquoting you. You're correct that was part of my response.
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Thank you. I thought so, and appreciate your response.

I didn't want someone coming late to the thread and "challenging" me on the assumption I might have edited the original post after you posted. You know, accusing me of lying about something that I actually did? ;)

SonOfDaedalus said:
So, your argument is everyone has faults?
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Not really. My basic argument has always been Trump is under a microscope, and the "observers" (MSM, Deep State, Social Media moguls, etc.) are looking for any and every fault to make large for the world.

That most of those "observers" are not above misrepresenting, exaggerating, and yes even outright lying about things they observe to paint Trump as darkly as possible.

Thus things that are quickly forgiven or lightly reported on when it comes to public figures those "observers" like and support, they report in the worst light possible when it comes to Trump.

SonOfDaedalus said:
I'll give you an example of one of these "exaggerations." Trump said that the CEO of U.S. Steel called him and told him they were going to open 6 new plants. Reporters asked U.S. Steel. They tactfully denied it. U.S. Steel never opened new plants. They're closing some.

Is that an acceptable lie for a president in your mind?
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I don't know what was actually said in that conversation, since I have no access to a transcript and was not a party to the call. I cannot say Trump was intentionally lying because it is possible he was promised something and then the CEO "reneged," or he simply misunderstood the conversation. Of course, the third possibility is he intentionally lied. In which case, I would not approve.

SonOfDaedalus said:
Trump has said there was no quid pro quo. If all his henchmen testify that there was a quid pro quo, is that just another mere human fault?
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Now you are speculating. I have seen NO EVIDENCE of any quid pro quo so far, and even Adam Schiff hasn't been able to show this despite his own "exaggerations" about such "evidence." Therefore, I presume Trump is innocent based on evidence already available to the public.

SonOfDaedalus said:
Nixon had faults. We all have faults. But not all faults are the same. And some faults are unacceptable in a president.
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I agree. When you point out a "fault" via hard evidence as occurred with Mr. Nixon, then just like back then I'll agree he needs to face Impeachment. I.e., let Congress present the evidence, and then let the Senate try the case.

Until then, the only "harmful faults" I've seen concern the non-stop effort to unseat Mr. Trump by any means necessary...just because some people were upset that they didn't get their way in November 2016. :shrug:
 
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OpportunityCost said:
He signed the ****ing bill didn't he? God, own up once in a damn blue moon.
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Yes he signed it and 20 million Americans gained HC coverage because he did. It does not change the fact that insurers always have had the only say on who keeps their policies.
 
Drawdown said:
Trump was elected by the people. Secret hearings that nobody but democrats can see the evidence of is not democratic. It is more a 15th century Inquisition than inquiry.
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A correction. President of the United States of America, and all the presidents who preceded him, was elected by the Electoral College. The popular vote, nationwide, favored his opponent by millions of votes.

Regards.
 
Torus34 said:
A correction. President of the United States of America, and all the presidents who preceded him, was elected by the Electoral College. The popular vote, nationwide, favored his opponent by millions of votes.

Regards.
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Sorry but we have had presidents who were not elected and the electoral college results are not final until confirmed by the US Senate.
 
Drawdown said:
Sorry but we have had presidents who were not elected and the electoral college results are not final until confirmed by the US Senate.
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Hi! Thank you for the correction. Between us, we'll get it right.

Regards.
 
iguanaman said:
Yes he signed it and 20 million Americans gained HC coverage because he did. It does not change the fact that insurers always have had the only say on who keeps their policies.
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Nope. There were regulations coming from states well prior to the AHCA. Many millions more are paying more, had their coverage changed or eliminated.
 
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