Socialism explained

I will explain it as I personally understand it. And very briefly, leaving out confusing complexities.

Socialism could be compared to wanting to control the weather. Which of course people have tried to do, but with not much success. Why should this be so hard?

Socialists probably mean well. Marx, for example, hated the unfairness and cruelty he saw resulting from capitalism in the early industrial revolution.

Why not adjust things, create things, move things around, so there won't be unfairness or cruelty? Aren't we the intelligent animal? Haven't we defied nature and modified our environment, and made things better?

Well maybe, or maybe not. Have we made things better? It depends on your perspective, depends on what things you're talking about.

But the hard truth is that we aren't nearly as smart as we might seem. Our species did invent airplanes, and yes they do seem impossible. Our species has done a lot of things the other species could not begin to dream of.

But that doesn't mean our species knows everything or can do everything. Many things it can't do. Many things it thinks it can do, but actually cannot.

Our species cannot control the weather, and it cannot control, or design, economic systems. It can't. It won't ever. It has not ever.

So the weather generally does what it wants, and so do the economic systems.

Some of you will think what I am saying is not possible. How could anything be impossible for our species? How can I possibly know that?

It has to do with the reality of complex systems. And the nature of our universe, which is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

Socialism is big government. People can't take care of themselves so the government takes care of them.

Good4Nothin said:

I will explain it as I personally understand it. And very briefly, leaving out confusing complexities.

Socialism could be compared to wanting to control the weather. Which of course people have tried to do, but with not much success. Why should this be so hard?

Socialists probably mean well. Marx, for example, hated the unfairness and cruelty he saw resulting from capitalism in the early industrial revolution.

Why not adjust things, create things, move things around, so there won't be unfairness or cruelty? Aren't we the intelligent animal? Haven't we defied nature and modified our environment, and made things better?

Well maybe, or maybe not. Have we made things better? It depends on your perspective, depends on what things you're talking about.

But the hard truth is that we aren't nearly as smart as we might seem. Our species did invent airplanes, and yes they do seem impossible. Our species has done a lot of things the other species could not begin to dream of.

But that doesn't mean our species knows everything or can do everything. Many things it can't do. Many things it thinks it can do, but actually cannot.

Our species cannot control the weather, and it cannot control, or design, economic systems. It can't. It won't ever. It has not ever.

So the weather generally does what it wants, and so do the economic systems.

Some of you will think what I am saying is not possible. How could anything be impossible for our species? How can I possibly know that?

It has to do with the reality of complex systems. And the nature of our universe, which is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

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the "human behavior is complex to be modeled" theory calls into question all economic thought from austrian to communism.. but we use economic models all the time so this argument doesn't hold weight.

So that is your definition of Socialism?

Really?

My analogy is that Socialism sees those riding in the cart and those pulling the cart as equally important to keeping the cart traveling along.

Good4Nothin said:

I will explain it as I personally understand it. And very briefly, leaving out confusing complexities.

Socialism could be compared to wanting to control the weather. Which of course people have tried to do, but with not much success. Why should this be so hard?

Socialists probably mean well. Marx, for example, hated the unfairness and cruelty he saw resulting from capitalism in the early industrial revolution.

Why not adjust things, create things, move things around, so there won't be unfairness or cruelty? Aren't we the intelligent animal? Haven't we defied nature and modified our environment, and made things better?

Well maybe, or maybe not. Have we made things better? It depends on your perspective, depends on what things you're talking about.

But the hard truth is that we aren't nearly as smart as we might seem. Our species did invent airplanes, and yes they do seem impossible. Our species has done a lot of things the other species could not begin to dream of.

But that doesn't mean our species knows everything or can do everything. Many things it can't do. Many things it thinks it can do, but actually cannot.

Our species cannot control the weather, and it cannot control, or design, economic systems. It can't. It won't ever. It has not ever.

So the weather generally does what it wants, and so do the economic systems.

Some of you will think what I am saying is not possible. How could anything be impossible for our species? How can I possibly know that?

It has to do with the reality of complex systems. And the nature of our universe, which is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

Click to expand...

Clearly you have never heard of interest rates.

This thread right here is what happens when we start making up **** for terms.

OrphanSlug said:

This thread right here is what happens when we start making up **** for terms.

Click to expand...

just wait until the von mises institute fans arrive...

ttwtt78640 said:

My analogy is that Socialism sees those riding in the cart and those pulling the cart as equally important to keeping the cart traveling along.

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Funny, socialists say the same about capitalism. They just disagree on who's who XD

ttwtt78640 said:

My analogy is that Socialism sees those riding in the cart and those pulling the cart as equally important to keeping the cart traveling along.

Click to expand...

It's almost brilliant. It took me a second to unpack this... but I think you're poking fun in claiming the ones sitting in the back aren't actually do anything and getting a free ride.

But the sad reality is that as a "corporation" or wealthy capitalist, ttwtt78640, your analogy holds, but in reverse. The wealthy leaders sit up there and tell the runners to take them somewhere, gives them a pittance, and leans back and says "I get 500x more than them for getting us from point A to point B, ain't life grand?"

Good4Nothin said:

I will explain it as I personally understand it.

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Don't. It's embarrassing to watch.

Good4Nothin said:

I will explain it as I personally understand it. And very briefly, leaving out confusing complexities.

Socialism could be compared to wanting to control the weather. Which of course people have tried to do, but with not much success. Why should this be so hard?

Socialists probably mean well. Marx, for example, hated the unfairness and cruelty he saw resulting from capitalism in the early industrial revolution.

Why not adjust things, create things, move things around, so there won't be unfairness or cruelty? Aren't we the intelligent animal? Haven't we defied nature and modified our environment, and made things better?

Well maybe, or maybe not. Have we made things better? It depends on your perspective, depends on what things you're talking about.

But the hard truth is that we aren't nearly as smart as we might seem. Our species did invent airplanes, and yes they do seem impossible. Our species has done a lot of things the other species could not begin to dream of.

But that doesn't mean our species knows everything or can do everything. Many things it can't do. Many things it thinks it can do, but actually cannot.

Our species cannot control the weather, and it cannot control, or design, economic systems. It can't. It won't ever. It has not ever.

So the weather generally does what it wants, and so do the economic systems.

Some of you will think what I am saying is not possible. How could anything be impossible for our species? How can I possibly know that?

It has to do with the reality of complex systems. And the nature of our universe, which is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

Click to expand...

Complex economic systems are a fundamentally human creation. In the non human world it doesn't get much more complex than finding enough food to survive. So to say that humans cannot control the economy, a system which they themsleves created, is ludicrous.

Mach said:

It's almost brilliant. It took me a second to unpack this... but I think you're poking fun in claiming the ones sitting in the back aren't actually do anything and getting a free ride.

But the sad reality is that as a "corporation" or wealthy capitalist, ttwtt78640, your analogy holds, but in reverse. The wealthy leaders sit up there and tell the runners to take them somewhere, gives them a pittance, and leans back and says "I get 500x more than them for getting us from point A to point B, ain't life grand?"

Click to expand...

Yep, the investor/lending class is definitely accustomed to riding first class in the cart, but that exists under Socialism too. Those placed in charge of dividing up the profit (or proceeds) pie naturally take a big piece for themselves first and then divide the remainder.

rickc said:

So that is your definition of Socialism?

Really?

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No it isn't my definition. It's my explanation of why socialism has been tried and why it has never worked.

Phys251 said:

Clearly you have never heard of interest rates.

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Well yes I know they think they can keep the economy eternally inflated by adjusting interest rates. We'll see how well that turns out.

Irredentist said:

Complex economic systems are a fundamentally human creation. In the non human world it doesn't get much more complex than finding enough food to survive. So to say that humans cannot control the economy, a system which they themsleves created, is ludicrous.

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Right. That's the illusion. But humans didn't create the economic systems. If humans created them, they would understand them. But they don't.

ttwtt78640 said:

Yep, the investor/lending class is definitely accustomed to riding first class in the cart, but that exists under Socialism too. Those placed in charge of dividing up the profit (or proceeds) pie naturally take a big piece for themselves first and then divide the remainder.

Click to expand...

That's not reality though, it's a broad generalization that ultimately serves the corporate/wealthy propaganda.

I don't get a bigger piece of my SS tax pie, you do. Oof, right? So it's the system and the rules that matter, not the label of "socialism" that is so misused in American politics. Granted, the OP says its about socialism, but really it's a broad generalization from a conservative no doubt as related to U.S politics....so I'm taking some liberty in dragging you into it further than you may have written.

All that matters are the rules, the system. Calling it one thing or another is useless.
We have terrible failures of free markets.
We have seen historically in other nations, terrible failures of government (socialistic) run economies.

We also have well functioning systems that combined free market forces and government and socialism...a mixed economy.

Good4Nothin said:

It has to do with the reality of complex systems. And the nature of our universe, which is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

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How are you defining socialism in your OP?
Are you also including aspects of socialism in our economy or government programs as falling victim to this same (opinion-based) flaw?

Good4Nothin said:

I will explain it as I personally understand it.

Click to expand...

In other words, you don't understand it. Good to know.

Good4Nothin said:

Our species cannot control the weather, and it cannot control, or design, economic systems. It can't. It won't ever. It has not ever.

So the weather generally does what it wants, and so do the economic systems.

Some of you will think what I am saying is not possible. How could anything be impossible for our species? How can I possibly know that?

It has to do with the reality of complex systems. And the nature of our universe, which is infinitely beyond our comprehension.

Click to expand...

What you're suggesting at the core is the rules of our economic system do not matter. IMO, that's obviously false. Just start with the beginning and our concept of private property. That's an economic system that didn't exist for thousand of years of human history beyond whoever was the strongest and had the biggest tribe or army owned the property, until he was killed. The modern corporation is an artificial construct with unlimited life, limited liability for shareholders, publicly traded. LLCs and all the rest also interventions. Bankruptcy is a key part of our system, versus debtor prisons. Patents and copyrights and trademarks etc. are artificial constructs of our economic system. Why should someone have a monopoly on a product for years just because they invented it, AND managed to get the state to grant them this monopoly first? 1,000 years ago that was unheard of, and if it existed had no way to enforce it. We did away with slavery, but that existed for thousands of years as well, so it's a natural thing in economics. Defeat some tribe in battle, rape the women, kill most of the men, make slaves of the rest until they die. Might makes right. Etc.......

So your premise is false in 100 different ways. The rules of the game go a long way in determining the winners of it. The big boys understand that quite well, which is why they invest $billions to influence the rules makers. And what do you know - when the wealthy make the rules, they tend to favor the wealthy, which is why throughout most of history you had a tiny ruling class, a few professionals, then vast numbers of people living on the edge of subsistence. When the people have a say, such as in democracies, that tends to mitigate that a little bit at least.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Don't. It's embarrassing to watch.

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:3oops:

Mach said:

That's not reality though, it's a broad generalization that ultimately serves the corporate/wealthy propaganda.

I don't get a bigger piece of my SS tax pie, you do. Oof, right? So it's the system and the rules that matter, not the label of "socialism" that is so misused in American politics. Granted, the OP says its about socialism, but really it's a broad generalization from a conservative no doubt as related to U.S politics....so I'm taking some liberty in dragging you into it further than you may have written.

All that matters are the rules, the system. Calling it one thing or another is useless.
We have terrible failures of free markets.
We have seen historically in other nations, terrible failures of government (socialistic) run economies.

We also have well functioning systems that combined free market forces and government and socialism...a mixed economy.

Click to expand...

Mixed economies are the only type of modern system that has been proven to work.

The capitalism and socialism labels are meaningless now. We know what works, but the tuning and adjusting is the challenge.

And it really is about time we stopped talking about "left" vs "right."

Good4Nothin said:

Mixed economies are the only type of modern system that has been proven to work.

The capitalism and socialism labels are meaningless now. We know what works, but the tuning and adjusting is the challenge.

And it really is about time we stopped talking about "left" vs "right."

Click to expand...

Good4something says it. Workers of the world did unite, and in the US we got unions, the New Deal, Medicare, and of late, Bush’s drug plan and Obamacare. We already had National Parks and had the Post Office and the VA and the Interstate. Trump says he’ll replace Obamacare with something better, so he’s on board too.

But socialism is still a dirty word, a useful bogeyman. Watch next year’s campaign if you don’t think so.

Nickyjo said:

Good4something says it. Workers of the world did unite, and in the US we got unions, the New Deal, Medicare, and of late, Bush’s drug plan and Obamacare. We already had National Parks and had the Post Office and the VA and the Interstate. Trump says he’ll replace Obamacare with something better, so he’s on board too.

But socialism is still a dirty word, a useful bogeyman. Watch next year’s campaign if you don’t think so.

Click to expand...

Socialism is a dirty word because it refers to something very bad, very dangerous, and a proven failure. A mixed economy is NOT socialism.

Good4Nothin said:

Mixed economies are the only type of modern system that has been proven to work.

The capitalism and socialism labels are meaningless now. We know what works, but the tuning and adjusting is the challenge.

And it really is about time we stopped talking about "left" vs "right."

Click to expand...

But that's what the overwhelming majority of those on the Left want. But I'm sure that will never ever stop you and the rest of the Trump supporters from your nonstop RED BAITING.

I'd love to get a dime for every "lefties are communists and socialists" thread that is going to be posted on DP in the next twelve months. I could amass enough to buy a second home already paid off!

Yes, some on the Left are convinced we need to go socialist.
And the closest we ever got was when capitalism utterly failed in the 1930's.
It didn't take then and it won't take now.

But it sure would be nice to try some of the tricks and tweaks we tried during the New Deal.
Best economy of any country in recorded history for well over three decades, including a fair portion of my formative years.

If you guys would just drop the constant RED BAITING, perhaps it would be possible to have a rational discussion on how to rejigger the economy so that it returns to being harnessed as a useful tool to serve working families first.
Capitalism treated us very well back then and all we need to do is figure out how to reintroduce the good stuff we had back then. We can do it gradually so as not to shock the system.