So greenies in Northern Calif

Lisa said:

The problem of safe storage and disposal of nuclear waste has yet to be solved. Are you aware of what happened when they tried to build two nuclear power plants a hundred miles SW of you? VC Summer and Alvin W. Vogtle.


Maybe we ni the US could spend a few billion dollars updated our electrical grid and buying t lines in rural areas where the weather can three power distribution. Other countries did it in the 1950-60s. that upgrade would cost less than a war, bailing out corporations or farmers or another stupid tax cut that doesn't create jobs, despite the precious religious beliefs of the rabid MAGAites.

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I worked at the VC Summer Nuclear plant nearly 30 years ago. My nephew worked there on the new construction as an engineer until they shut down the new phase construction due to cost overruns and money shortages. The US can barely afford investments in new power and that is going to be a big problem going forward, especially if greenie weenies become successful in forcing conversion from traditional power into new untested expensive alternate energy.

Tax hikes will cost a lot of workers a lot of money and still will not pay all our existing bills, much less new ones.

Logical1 said:

So greenies in northern Calif, hows that wonderful electric car doing. No power, no car!!!
I have always had the opinion that they are obscenely price golf carts anyway.

I have always followed the auto scene and have been subscribed to several auto magazines. Never once have I seen an auto report on an electric car in Montana in the winter when it is 20 below, and often never gets above zero for several days. What is the range when you have to run your electric heater and defroster full tilt. What about you electric seat warmers????

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Good God, American Education system has seriously failed you, and I am sorry for that.

First, no power does not mean no SUN! Go Solar!
Secondly no electricity also means no gas pump.
Thirdly there is this wonderful invention that is called battery! It is capable of storing electricity for later use!

But I digress!

Diving Mullah

marke said:

I worked at the VC Summer Nuclear plant nearly 30 years ago. My nephew worked there on the new construction as an engineer until they shut down the new phase construction due to cost overruns and money shortages. The US can barely afford investments in new power and that is going to be a big problem going forward, especially if greenie weenies become successful in forcing conversion from traditional power into new untested expensive alternate energy.

Tax hikes will cost a lot of workers a lot of money and still will not pay all our existing bills, much less new ones.

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Nuclear is seen as green energy because there is no carbon being burned. It is being held back by the lack of a disposal program for the long term hazardous waste. I'm a greenie and I hope that both of these projects can be moved forward because they are the newer safer AP1000 reactors. I would like to see they operated on a not-for-net-profits basis and owned by the citizen-consumers instead of a for-profit private utility owned by shareholders. Solar and wind are good sources of electricity but they don't provide the reliable baseload power that we need.

Lisa said:

Nuclear is seen as green energy because there is no carbon being burned. It is being held back by the lack of a disposal program for the long term hazardous waste. I'm a greenie and I hope that both of these projects can be moved forward because they are the newer safer AP1000 reactors. I would like to see they operated on a not-for-net-profits basis and owned by the citizen-consumers instead of a for-profit private utility owned by shareholders. Solar and wind are good sources of electricity but they don't provide the reliable baseload power that we need.

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I agree that nuclear is the best energy source known to man for multiple reasons. But too many Americans fear the possibility of a disaster and create a huge opposition to nuclear power in Congress. What these people don't seem to realize is that there will always be down sides to whatever energy source we use.

Visbek said:

Funny how they don't make those cars anymore, huh?



Not so much.

The best mileage for gas-powered Hyundais, for example, top out at 41mpg; the equivalent hybrids top out at 59mpg.

The best gas mileage Honda is the Civic Hatchback, at 40/31 (hwy/city). The Insight is 55/49.



Uh, hello? The same goes for maxing out the mileage of gas-powered vehicles. Hybrids also get significantly better mileage in city / stop-and-go traffic, where pretty much everyone has to "drive like a grandma."



So the measure of a vehicle class' popularity and viability is... how many people you personally know how have them? lol

Well, if that's the case, then nobody buys trucks because I don't know anyone who owns one. See how that works?



No, it isn't. E.g. The 8 cars that cost the least to maintain - Business Insider

Costs are even lower for EVs, which are relatively simple compared to gas vehicles. A gas vehicle's drivetrain can have 2000 parts; an EV has 20.



Where are you getting this from?



No, dude, it's just a fact. EV/hybrids have crash detection systems which shut down the HV. The batteries are also fully isolated from the chassis for safety as well.

From a paper that Daimler submitted to the NHTSA in 2009:


high crash loadings. [/color]
https://www-esv.nhtsa.dot.gov/Proceedings/22/files/22ESV-000096.pdf

Again, spare us the FUD, kthx.

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So you compare newer honda models with lower mpg? half those honda cars get the same mpg as my v6 ford ranger with 300k miles on the engine. I guess honda wnt downhill because in the 80's and 90's 50 mpg was an easy task, and there were pure gas vehicles pushing 50-60 in the 80's as well. We also had heavier cars in the 70's push 30 highway mpg and cars starting in the 50's pushing that, if honda is getting the same mpg now a heavier amc pacer got in the 70's, they must have put mpg as a low priority.


In town mpg you would be correct the hybrids do get better, but on highway they barely do better and even get beaten by economy cars decades older.


On hybrids they are only popular in certain areas, the market share keeps going down not up like they expected, hybrids lost their viability when they tried to incorporate more speed which has dropped mpg considerably. I remember seeing the prototype hybrids by toyota driving around cali, they got 100-170 mpg depending on the model, they were all snail slow though and toyota made major changes, and kept making changes. It was originally 60 mpg highway, then those numbers kept dropping year after year. Either way those hybrids are not big except in certain major cities, and probably never will be.


On the number straight from prius owners who need to spend that yearly on battery services, I have witness a few people who use their priuses constantly, and found out batteries do degrade on them from heat and cycling, and the batteries are not cheap, I guess you may not need batteries if you drive one block down the street 3 times a week instead of walking and never put any wear on anything.


For a battery to be fully isolated would mean every battery isolated as well, and also being isolated from any emergency workers, it not only is a problem toyota has had programs for rescue teams to teach them how to rescue people without getting killed by the hybrids. Besides that volvo is the only maker putting serious thought into the safety. Either way to say A battery can be safely isolated in a wreck means you are gobbling up what the automakers say and not basing any of your argument on scientific knowledge or electrical principles.

Also please do not use benz or daimler benz for anything, that is the same company that had to put an emergency stop on their diesel engines because they had a tendency to keep running and sometimes even run away and blow up. If they could not isolate a fricken diesel engine safely with a remote shutoff until the late 90's I doubt they could isolate crap. Oh and in the 90's their cars kept catching fire, not the best record for any company.

Grandpappy said:

EVs only work in certain situations. They take a while to recharge, too. They aren't really zero emission, either, as electrical generation and battery manufacturing is still carbon intensive.
But they give enviro weirdos a warm fuzzy, so...

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A friend of mine did that and had the charging station installed in his house. Whenever he talks about how much he saves not buying gas I just point out he could have bought 50K gallons of gas for what he dropped on that deal.

Drawdown said:

A friend of mine did that and had the charging station installed in his house. Whenever he talks about how much he saves not buying gas I just point out he could have bought 50K gallons of gas for what he dropped on that deal.

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How much did he pay for the installation of a charging station? It should be less than $2000 installed because the hardware is only $600.

marke said:

I agree that nuclear is the best energy source known to man for multiple reasons. But too many Americans fear the possibility of a disaster and create a huge opposition to nuclear power in Congress. What these people don't seem to realize is that there will always be down sides to whatever energy source we use.

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Everyone, please note that I am agreeing with Marke.

I like the current generation 3rd reactors and they are almost impossible to have a meltdown, like TMI, Fukushima or Chernobyl. I don't like the idea when they are owned by a private, for-profit utility that the public is usually on the hook for accidents are clean up costs while the utility gets to make a profit and then walk away when the site needs remediation at the end of their useful life. The people in Ohio are getting bent over by First Energy and the politicians that they paid for because of their two nuclear plants are almost to the end of their life and they want billions in public bailouts while they walk away.
FirstEnergy handed out $1 million in campaign cash before nuclear bailout vote - News - The Columbus Dispatch - Columbus, OH

Lisa said:

How much did he pay for the installation of a charging station? It should be less than $2000 installed because the hardware is only $600.

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Don't know exactly what it cost him in the end just for that. His house only had 60 amp service to begin with so it was a little more involved than buying equipment. There was some hitch he ran into related to getting a new electric line run to the house as well having to do with his HOA. The car itself was a little over $100K

Drawdown said:

Don't know exactly what it cost him in the end just for that. His house only had 60 amp service to begin with so it was a little more involved than buying equipment. There was some hitch he ran into related to getting a new electric line run to the house as well having to do with his HOA. The car itself was a little over $100K

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He needed a new electrical service. That can be $500-1000 depending on the age of the home. HOAs are evil. I hate them because they are usually populated by fascist busybodies who can't get elected to the school board or city council.

What car did he buy? I've thought about a Prius as a city car. My ex is on his 2nd and loves it because he has a long commute. There is a black Tesla Model-S around town and the guy driving it likes to show off at stoplights.

Lisa said:

He needed a new electrical service. That can be $500-1000 depending on the age of the home. HOAs are evil. I hate them because they are usually populated by fascist busybodies who can't get elected to the school board or city council.

What car did he buy? I've thought about a Prius as a city car. My ex is on his 2nd and loves it because he has a long commute. There is a black Tesla Model-S around town and the guy driving it likes to show off at stoplights.

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He bought one of the higher end Teslas with all the bells and whistles and paid extra to have the range or the speed unlocked, I forget which.

After all those runaway Prius stories, you couldn't get me to ride in one, let alone buy one. I will keep my eye on the new EV trucks but I am skeptical that the first few models that roll up will be up to snuff.

Logical1 said:

So greenies in northern Calif, hows that wonderful electric car doing. No power, no car!!!
I have always had the opinion that they are obscenely price golf carts anyway.

I have always followed the auto scene and have been subscribed to several auto magazines. Never once have I seen an auto report on an electric car in Montana in the winter when it is 20 below, and often never gets above zero for several days. What is the range when you have to run your electric heater and defroster full tilt. What about you electric seat warmers????

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My wife has a Prius. It’s a great car and Toyota is smart. It uses gasoline. But it flat out amazes me to drive 52 freeway miles on a gallon of regular gas.

Wait, this thread isn't about overpriced doggie dental treats?

Mason66 said:

How many electric car owners do you know?

Ask them how many times they have had to repair their electric car.

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Let me help you, I have had two, a 2013 and now a 2018- Times they have had to be repaired, same as emissions -0. Why did I trade up, simple, improvements in accessories and better range. As to the battery life, both mine were/are warranted for 8 years. Even after 8 years the battery is not dead, the storage capacity decreases with age but is still practical at 8 and longer years. Right now my most economical gas car gets 21 miles a gallon, cost now $3.99 for that gallon. The same range on the electric costs me .64¢

beerftw said:

So you compare newer honda models with lower mpg?

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I compared gas-powered Hondas with the best MPG to their hybrid equivalents. If you will pardon the abundance of fruit metaphors: You should compare apples to apples, instead of cherry-picking.

I guess honda wnt downhill because in the 80's and 90's 50 mpg was an easy task, and there were pure gas vehicles pushing 50-60 in the 80's as well....

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Honda and Hyundais and Kias -- all brands you stipulated.

As to those 50mpg Hondas? Those were CRXs built in the 80s. They got better mileage because they were lightweight... and had fewer safety features (airbags, anti-lock brakes, anti-intrusion door beams, etc) and few comfort features people demand today (A/C, power windows etc). Needless to say, if Honda somehow made a 50mpg CRX again, a hybrid version would get significantly better gas mileage.

On hybrids they are only popular in certain areas, the market share keeps going down not up like they expected...

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No, hybrid's market share has been pretty stable at around 2% for a few years now. It dipped a bit a few years ago, most likely due to the increase in EV market share, which jumped from 0.9% in 2016 to 2.1% in 2018.

hybrids lost their viability when they tried to incorporate more speed which has dropped mpg considerably.

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Yaay, more total BS

2001 Prius: 42C / 41H
2009 Prius: 48C / 45H
2019 Prius: 54C / 50H

On the number straight from prius owners who need to spend that yearly on battery services, I have witness a few people who use their priuses constantly, and found out batteries do degrade on them from heat and cycling...

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Cool story bro

Back in the real world: Toyota offers an 8-year or 10-warranty on its Prius batteries. If you know Prius owners who are spending thousands every year on their batteries, then clearly they are doing something ridiculously wrong. (Or, they just don't exist.)

For a battery to be fully isolated would mean every battery isolated as well...

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Yep. That's pretty much how it works.

it not only is a problem toyota has had programs for rescue teams to teach them how to rescue people without getting killed by the hybrids.

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:roll:

• First responders get training on all types of vehicles, including for scenarios that are very rare
• We don't hear about first responders getting injured by electric shocks from crashed hybrids once a week... go figure

Also please do not use benz or daimler benz for anything, that is the same company that had to put an emergency stop on their diesel engines because blah blah blah

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:roll:

My point is that auto manufacturers were taking safety measures, including HV shutdowns, over a decade ago. The brand is not the point, because pretty much every hybrid and EV has included HV crash shutdowns for years.

Visbek said:

I compared gas-powered Hondas with the best MPG to their hybrid equivalents. If you will pardon the abundance of fruit metaphors: You should compare apples to apples, instead of cherry-picking.



Honda and Hyundais and Kias -- all brands you stipulated.

As to those 50mpg Hondas? Those were CRXs built in the 80s. They got better mileage because they were lightweight... and had fewer safety features (airbags, anti-lock brakes, anti-intrusion door beams, etc) and few comfort features people demand today (A/C, power windows etc). Needless to say, if Honda somehow made a 50mpg CRX again, a hybrid version would get significantly better gas mileage.



No, hybrid's market share has been pretty stable at around 2% for a few years now. It dipped a bit a few years ago, most likely due to the increase in EV market share, which jumped from 0.9% in 2016 to 2.1% in 2018.



Yaay, more total BS

2001 Prius: 42C / 41H
2009 Prius: 48C / 45H
2019 Prius: 54C / 50H



Cool story bro

Back in the real world: Toyota offers an 8-year or 10-warranty on its Prius batteries. If you know Prius owners who are spending thousands every year on their batteries, then clearly they are doing something ridiculously wrong. (Or, they just don't exist.)



Yep. That's pretty much how it works.



:roll:

• First responders get training on all types of vehicles, including for scenarios that are very rare
• We don't hear about first responders getting injured by electric shocks from crashed hybrids once a week... go figure



:roll:

My point is that auto manufacturers were taking safety measures, including HV shutdowns, over a decade ago. The brand is not the point, because pretty much every hybrid and EV has included HV crash shutdowns for years.

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The prius battery is only good for 10 year 150k in cali, in other states 8 year 100k miles, I could truly put that mileage in a year or two on a vehicle, so you already fail there unless you automatically assume prius owners buy them to be smug and never drive them anywhere to rack up miles.


Hyrbid market share actually peaked in 2013 it has been dropping since, you could try doing better research than posting some goofball numbers that mean nothing, not going to name names but there was a conservative person who did that all the time.


For you to say that is how it works still shows you are completely and utterly ignorant on electrical theory, or even on the understandings of batteries like lithium ion and how fragile they are especially to heat and impact, and how it is impossible to prevent a battery short unless a switch was installed in each battery cell and the battery bank protected in every possible situation against damage from impact and that would still require every cutoff working. Electric principles and the nature of batteries do not change because someone waved a magic wand and said so, we still to this day have laptops and cell phones with the same claimed safety blowing up because the safety only works in proper conditions, and sometimes if they continue to work, which often times they do not.


Yes first responders do get training on this, you are just now making yourself look ignorant as a few second google search would have proven you wrong. For example lexus has a master shutoff on the roof as a means to ensure it is accessable in most wrecks, all of them need to be trained on where and how to operate the jaws of life on hybrid and electric cars, and truthfully many not trained will simply leave someone to die in the car over risking their own lives.



Hv crash shutdowns do not matter though, the entire system is an issue, volvo is the only one to put serious thought into it by trying to design them with cooling systems for the batteries to prevent lithium ion batteries exploding and also moving the batteries in a way to minimize impact in any wreck to incrase the auto shutdown feature actually being successful rather than shorting out at the battery level before the shutdown.

Sabre said:

Let me help you, I have had two, a 2013 and now a 2018- Times they have had to be repaired, same as emissions -0. Why did I trade up, simple, improvements in accessories and better range. As to the battery life, both mine were/are warranted for 8 years. Even after 8 years the battery is not dead, the storage capacity decreases with age but is still practical at 8 and longer years. Right now my most economical gas car gets 21 miles a gallon, cost now $3.99 for that gallon. The same range on the electric costs me .64¢

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Battery life on electric vehicles depends on how they are driven, you could need batteries twice a year or not need them a decade later, it depends on how deep the batteries are cycled and how frequently. Constant stop and go traffic where it is running battery cycles to the max will wear out a battery fast, while easy driving tends to make them last longer.

beerftw said:

Battery life on electric vehicles depends on how they are driven, you could need batteries twice a year or not need them a decade later, it depends on how deep the batteries are cycled and how frequently. Constant stop and go traffic where it is running battery cycles to the max will wear out a battery fast, while easy driving tends to make them last longer.

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My 'ex has close to 200K on his 2013 Prius and the battery has never been replaced.

Lisa said:

My 'ex has close to 200K on his 2013 Prius and the battery has never been replaced.

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He is either easy or lucky, I have seen people need yearly service at around 1200 bucks on theirs, It depends on how it is used, as batteries even though not moving parts degrade much like other parts depending on use and abuse. This is not new with lithium ion or nickel hydride, it works the same with old lead acid batteries.

With lead acid they last long because the only deep draw is starting the engine, for other purposes deep cycle lead batteries were used because constant deep draws would tear up a standard battery, which is why motorhomes and home battery banks using lead acid or gel type batteries use deep cycle.

Fyi part of the nightmare for failing batteries on hybrids and electric is not all the batteries failing, but rather just one or two inside the bank, but when they fail they are not easily serviced or replaced, often times labor costs outweighing the actual costs of the batteries.

beerftw said:

He is either easy or lucky, I have seen people need yearly service at around 1200 bucks on theirs, It depends on how it is used, as batteries even though not moving parts degrade much like other parts depending on use and abuse. This is not new with lithium ion or nickel hydride, it works the same with old lead acid batteries.

With lead acid they last long because the only deep draw is starting the engine, for other purposes deep cycle lead batteries were used because constant deep draws would tear up a standard battery, which is why motorhomes and home battery banks using lead acid or gel type batteries use deep cycle.

Fyi part of the nightmare for failing batteries on hybrids and electric is not all the batteries failing, but rather just one or two inside the bank, but when they fail they are not easily serviced or replaced, often times labor costs outweighing the actual costs of the batteries.

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He a has a 1 hour highway commute every day and he drives like your grandmother. He'll set the cruise control for 65-70 and just drive. On a 2 lane road you don't want to be behind him because he is terminally slow. I don't think that her has ever gotten a speeding ticket.

beerftw said:

Battery life on electric vehicles depends on how they are driven, you could need batteries twice a year or not need them a decade later, it depends on how deep the batteries are cycled and how frequently. Constant stop and go traffic where it is running battery cycles to the max will wear out a battery fast, while easy driving tends to make them last longer.

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Don't know where you are getting your ideas about EV's. There is one battery, not batteries. Yeah it is multiple banked but still considered "a" battery. I have cycled mine until near as possible to the bottom and back up again many times. I charged my 2013 Leaf almost every night because I drove it to the limits, my 2018 Leaf every two or four nights because of the greater mileage I can get before needing a charge. Constant stop and go usually puts power back into the battery i.e, regenerative braking. I live in the real CA, not a fictional land and on a open freeway if you do not do 70-80 mph you get run over, I drive at those speeds regularly and the car does it with ease. I have never heard of anyone wearing out a battery twice a year.

Sounds like an EV is might not be the right choice for you.

Logical1 said:

So greenies in northern Calif, hows that wonderful electric car doing. No power, no car!!!
I have always had the opinion that they are obscenely price golf carts anyway.

I have always followed the auto scene and have been subscribed to several auto magazines. Never once have I seen an auto report on an electric car in Montana in the winter when it is 20 below, and often never gets above zero for several days. What is the range when you have to run your electric heater and defroster full tilt. What about you electric seat warmers????

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Somspe thing I saw and hope someone more knowledgeable can clarify: Is it true that houses with solar systems can't generate power if they're connected to a grid and the grid goes down? This was a statement from a PG&E spokesman during the blackouts up north.

Sabre said:

Don't know where you are getting your ideas about EV's. There is one battery, not batteries. Yeah it is multiple banked but still considered "a" battery. I have cycled mine until near as possible to the bottom and back up again many times. I charged my 2013 Leaf almost every night because I drove it to the limits, my 2018 Leaf every two or four nights because of the greater mileage I can get before needing a charge. Constant stop and go usually puts power back into the battery i.e, regenerative braking. I live in the real CA, not a fictional land and on a open freeway if you do not do 70-80 mph you get run over, I drive at those speeds regularly and the car does it with ease. I have never heard of anyone wearing out a battery twice a year.

Sounds like an EV is might not be the right choice for you.

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Charging it is not what degrades the battery, unless it is nicad which I am not aware of any modern electric cars using them, though some really old experimental models did. The stopping and starting recharging the battery also has nothing to do with wear, it is how deep the battery must cycle and how often, if you spend al day in downtown austin in nonstop slam on your brakes and takeoff to slam on them again 10 feet later, the constant cycling will degrade the battery rapidly.

If you do highway driving or only moderate stop and go the battery will degrade less. Where I work in killeen tx, it is common to have to slam on your breaks every 30 feet because we apparently keep getting retarded yankees who could not drive to save their life, think they need to come to a complete stop 1 mile before their turn and creap towards the turn at half a mile an hour for the whole mile, or just swerve endlessly like they are whacked out on pcp.

some cities are so bad at driving that driving normal is physically impossible, heck I must be a master at offroading as I could offroad in a honda civi at 60 mph simply because it was that or wreck a customer car because douchenozzel thought he had to speed past me switch lanes and slam on his breaks to make his turn 1 second faster like the world would end if he did not do it.


I would need to ask what part of cali do you live in, outside of major cities like la most of that state was highway driving more than anything except victorville/apple valley on bear valley road with their unsynced stoplights making traffic move ten feet at a time on bear valley road.

beerftw said:

The prius battery is only good for 10 year 150k in cali, in other states 8 year 100k miles, I could truly put that mileage in a year or two on a vehicle, so you already fail there unless you automatically assume prius owners buy them to be smug and never drive them anywhere to rack up miles.

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:roll:

Most people don't drive 75-150k miles per year. The average is 14k per year. If you're telling the truth, then you're driving five to ten times more than the average American.

So, the idea that "I'd burn through that warranty in two years max, therefore hybrids suck for everyone!" is utterly irrational and can be safely ignored.

Oh, and I guess when you claimed that "Prius owners are spending thousands a year to fix their batteries!" you forgot to mention they'd have to burn through the warranty first. Oooops

The rest of your post is just repeating the same FUD/BS. The reality is that hybrids work great for most drivers, and (contrary to the OP's claim) EVs are not, well, a disaster in a disaster. Nor are hybrids and EVs a massive safety risk; if they were, then manufacturers would be sued halfway to bankruptcy by now.

Visbek said:

:roll:

Most people don't drive 75-150k miles per year. The average is 14k per year. If you're telling the truth, then you're driving five to ten times more than the average American.

So, the idea that "I'd burn through that warranty in two years max, therefore hybrids suck for everyone!" is utterly irrational and can be safely ignored.

Oh, and I guess when you claimed that "Prius owners are spending thousands a year to fix their batteries!" you forgot to mention they'd have to burn through the warranty first. Oooops

The rest of your post is just repeating the same FUD/BS. The reality is that hybrids work great for most drivers, and (contrary to the OP's claim) EVs are not, well, a disaster in a disaster. Nor are hybrids and EVs a massive safety risk; if they were, then manufacturers would be sued halfway to bankruptcy by now.

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I do not drive that much most of the time, but there are times I will rack up the miles. Many around where I live live in smaller areas and drive 1-2 hours a day to work in austin, those people rack up miles quick, plus austin traffic is not friendly on anything gas or electric. however places like austin are in the prime electric/hybrid car market, traffic is terrible and it is not uncommon for many austin people to need new brake pads every 10k miles because people there do not understand turn signals or right of way, and in a few miles of intersections you may slam on your brakes 4-5 times due to idiots.


I will give you an example, my father drove daily in cali around an hour each way to get to work and back, he was near 80k miles two years into owning the truck, already out of warranty by year one, to assume no one drives that much you must assume everyone lives downtown next to where they work. For example in cali living in downtown la or palm springs could cost you so much that anyone making under 150k a year can not afford rent, so they live in lower cost areas and commute long distances to work, in texas it is often the same, you would spend over 1k a month for a studio apartment barely bigger than a closet, and a house big enough for a family might run 2-5k a month rent, so people just work there and commute from cheaper areas like killeen waco temple copperas cove belton etc.