So greenies in Northern Calif

So greenies in northern Calif, hows that wonderful electric car doing. No power, no car!!!
I have always had the opinion that they are obscenely price golf carts anyway.

I have always followed the auto scene and have been subscribed to several auto magazines. Never once have I seen an auto report on an electric car in Montana in the winter when it is 20 below, and often never gets above zero for several days. What is the range when you have to run your electric heater and defroster full tilt. What about you electric seat warmers????

EVs only work in certain situations. They take a while to recharge, too. They aren't really zero emission, either, as electrical generation and battery manufacturing is still carbon intensive.
But they give enviro weirdos a warm fuzzy, so...

Logical1 said:

So greenies in northern Calif, hows that wonderful electric car doing. No power, no car!!!

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News flash! Gas stations also need electricity. They also need gas, which is already gone or in short supply (resulting in huge lines), because people were preparing for the blackouts. By the way, driving a gas-powered car doesn't magically make traffic lights work.

Of course, the few people who have independent electricity generation (solar/wind) and EVs should be just fine. If anything, these types of blackouts are a good argument for decentralizing electricity generation via sustainable methods. Good luck extracting and refining your own gasoline.

Never once have I seen an auto report on an electric car in Montana in the winter when it is 20 below, and often never gets above zero for several days. What is the range when you have to run your electric heater and defroster full tilt.

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:roll:

EVs work fine in cold weather. Range is reduced not because of the heater (reminder: gas-powered auto heaters are not magic, they also require power), but because of how cold temperatures impacts the batteries. Fortunately, many now include thermal management to mitigate the issues, which adds the benefit that you don't need to warm up the car.

Spare us the outdated, inaccurate nonsense, kthx.

Why does the OP hate electric cars and the climate?

96% of the people affected hve power again. Haven't heard any issues with electric car owners.

Sssshhhh, don't let it get out but some EV owners were able to run electric in their house from the batteries in their EV's.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Sssshhhh, don't let it get out but some EV owners were able to run electric in their house from the batteries in their EV's.

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What's it take, a hundred times more land area to create solar power compared to nuclear?

Yaaaay! We are stuck with fossil fuels and all technological attempts at moving beyond it are failing! Woohoo!
(Sarcasm)

Does anyone get this mindset? So odd.

Visbek said:

News flash! Gas stations also need electricity. They also need gas, which is already gone or in short supply (resulting in huge lines), because people were preparing for the blackouts. By the way, driving a gas-powered car doesn't magically make traffic lights work.

Of course, the few people who have independent electricity generation (solar/wind) and EVs should be just fine. If anything, these types of blackouts are a good argument for decentralizing electricity generation via sustainable methods. Good luck extracting and refining your own gasoline.



:roll:

EVs work fine in cold weather. Range is reduced not because of the heater (reminder: gas-powered auto heaters are not magic, they also require power), but because of how cold temperatures impacts the batteries. Fortunately, many now include thermal management to mitigate the issues, which adds the benefit that you don't need to warm up the car.

Spare us the outdated, inaccurate nonsense, kthx.

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Gas stations only need electricity in the first world, in afghanistan it was funny watching the locals come out with gas cans at a gas station because they did not have working pumps. In some parts of the country you an still find the old hand crank pumps that fill a 1 gallon glass bowl before dumping it into the tank.

marke said:

What's it take, a hundred times more land area to create solar power compared to nuclear?

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I'm pretty sure you will not be able to comprehend my answer, seeing as how it starts with:

"Most people do not have home nuclear power plants. They do however, have residential solar installations. Are you arguing that every home needs its own nuclear plant?"

But you might not comprehend another part of my response either:

"Show me where I have EVER, in ANY of my posts, expressed opposition to all forms of nuclear power."

Do you know WHY I've never been opposed to all forms of nuclear power?
Because my father was a nuclear physicist, that's why.

But tell me marke, where does nuclear enter into this discussion anyway?
Does nuclear help prevent fires?
I am assuming this thread is loosely related to fires since it is addressed to "greenies in Northern California"...as if somehow there are none in Southern California.

But again, why did you assume I hate nuclear power?
I think Uranium/Plutonium fuel cycle reactors are a stupidly dangerous and expensive means of boiling water but there are plenty of other nuclear reactor fuel cycles which could boil water very efficiently and with a lot less risk and expense because despite being shelved at the outset of the Cold War, THORIUM is still ready to supply our power safely and efficiently, and we need to get busy with thorium nukes as a reliable means of zero carbon energy for both residential and commercial.

You may now return to your usual "libtards are poopyheads" stream of consciousness.

Visbek said:

News flash! Gas stations also need electricity. They also need gas, which is already gone or in short supply (resulting in huge lines), because people were preparing for the blackouts. By the way, driving a gas-powered car doesn't magically make traffic lights work.

Of course, the few people who have independent electricity generation (solar/wind) and EVs should be just fine. If anything, these types of blackouts are a good argument for decentralizing electricity generation via sustainable methods. Good luck extracting and refining your own gasoline.

EVs work fine in cold weather. Range is reduced not because of the heater (reminder: gas-powered auto heaters are not magic, they also require power), but because of how cold temperatures impacts the batteries. Fortunately, many now include thermal management to mitigate the issues, which adds the benefit that you don't need to warm up the car.

Spare us the outdated, inaccurate nonsense, kthx.

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FYI, gas powered auto heaters are not gas powered. Duh! Auto interior heating uses engine block hot water and is circulated using the engine's existing water pump.

Anyway, natural gas home generators work like a charm in an outage.

beerftw said:

Gas stations only need electricity in the first world, in afghanistan it was funny watching the locals come out with gas cans at a gas station because they did not have working pumps. In some parts of the country you an still find the old hand crank pumps that fill a 1 gallon glass bowl before dumping it into the tank.

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We don't live in Afghanistan, and the closest I've ever been to Afghan motoring was when I read my first Zap Comix and discovered that Mister Natural used to be a cab driver in Afghanistan.



Now, are you ADVOCATING that we all return to hand cranked gasoline pumps with the small glass bowls?
Why not just outfit gas stations with generators so that they can run the modern pumps AND the POS terminals and the refrigerators that keep your soda cold?

Maybe we should try the Nigerian method and just distill our own raw gasoline at the water's edge from lumpy crude stolen from refinery pipelines.



Yeah, that's it...every home gets its own refinery and we all just brew our own regular unleaded in the back yard!

And remember when the battery wears out it cost thousands to replace. Then too you have the problem of how to dispose of the worn out battery.

Logical1 said:

And remember when the battery wears out it cost thousands to replace. Then too you have the problem of how to dispose of the worn out battery.

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Batteries will pile up like mountains of nuclear waste in our new green energy utopia.

Logical1 said:

And remember when the battery wears out it cost thousands to replace. Then too you have the problem of how to dispose of the worn out battery.

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:roll:

EVs are substantially simpler vehicles, so they require less maintenance -- about 1/3 that of a gas-powered car. Since EV batteries tend to last 5 years / 100,000 miles, generally speaking the EV will cost far less than the gas-powered vehicle.

Even with a battery replacement, the lifetime carbon footprint of an EV is about half that of a gas-powered vehicle. And that only gets better as more sustainable electricity is available on the grid.

Spare us the FUD, kthx.

Visbek said:

News flash! Gas stations also need electricity. They also need gas, which is already gone or in short supply (resulting in huge lines), because people were preparing for the blackouts. By the way, driving a gas-powered car doesn't magically make traffic lights work.

Of course, the few people who have independent electricity generation (solar/wind) and EVs should be just fine. If anything, these types of blackouts are a good argument for decentralizing electricity generation via sustainable methods. Good luck extracting and refining your own gasoline.



:roll:

EVs work fine in cold weather. Range is reduced not because of the heater (reminder: gas-powered auto heaters are not magic, they also require power), but because of how cold temperatures impacts the batteries. Fortunately, many now include thermal management to mitigate the issues, which adds the benefit that you don't need to warm up the car.

Spare us the outdated, inaccurate nonsense, kthx.

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And that is exactly what the future electrical generation will look like, or should. Local generation. Neighborhood level and maybe even block level to home level.
Maybe not for 100% of all electrical needs, but a majority.

Visbek said:

:roll:

EVs are substantially simpler vehicles, so they require less maintenance -- about 1/3 that of a gas-powered car. Since EV batteries tend to last 5 years / 100,000 miles, generally speaking the EV will cost far less than the gas-powered vehicle.

Even with a battery replacement, the lifetime carbon footprint of an EV is about half that of a gas-powered vehicle. And that only gets better as more sustainable electricity is available on the grid.

Spare us the FUD, kthx.

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How many electric car owners do you know?

Ask them how many times they have had to repair their electric car.

Logical1 said:

And remember when the battery wears out it cost thousands to replace. Then too you have the problem of how to dispose of the worn out battery.

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Yeah, about 1200 bucks for a replacement Prius battery, about two thousand for a Volt battery and close to 2500-3000 for a Tesla battery. Any of the above are usually (99% of the time) good for about 200,000 to 300,000 miles.
(HINT: Almost NO ONE buys replacement batteries direct from the dealers, except for Tesla, but they make their own units in house.)

Worn out lithium ion and Nickel Metal-hydride batteries get recycled and remanufactured.
It's always been that way.
You can save lots of money if you have an old EV and you purchase a remanufactured battery.

The same companies that recycle and remanufacture Li-Ion and NiMh battery packs for lawn tools and other appliances, and for professional cinematography gear and the like, also do the same with automotive battery packs.
It is a thriving industry.

So, tell us, buggy whip maker, why is two to three hundred thousand miles on an automotive traction battery such a terrible deal?

dairyair said:

And that is exactly what the future electrical generation will look like, or should. Local generation. Neighborhood level and maybe even block level to home level.
Maybe not for 100% of all electrical needs, but a majority.

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There's no real reason why residential electric power HAS to absolutely be the sole province of a large centralized utility.
Maybe in a very large and dense urban environment but suburbia should not have to be so reliant on some supersized colossus forty or fifty miles away.

Suburbia is where you should want a more flexible and independent power generation scheme, one which is built on a multi-source co-generation design. In the outer reaches one might even consider co-generation combined with something like biochar production.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

We don't live in Afghanistan, and the closest I've ever been to Afghan motoring was when I read my first Zap Comix and discovered that Mister Natural used to be a cab driver in Afghanistan.

Now, are you ADVOCATING that we all return to hand cranked gasoline pumps with the small glass bowls?
Why not just outfit gas stations with generators so that they can run the modern pumps AND the POS terminals and the refrigerators that keep your soda cold?

Maybe we should try the Nigerian method and just distill our own raw gasoline at the water's edge from lumpy crude stolen from refinery pipelines.



Yeah, that's it...every home gets its own refinery and we all just brew our own regular unleaded in the back yard!

Click to expand...

The point being the glass bulbs do not need power, many farmers in the us still use that ancient method becaise it is reliable and also mobile meaning such a pump can sit on the back of a truck without the need of external power.

If you do not know muc of afghanistan you probably also know little of the third world. Outside my guard tower they had an actual gas station with pumps, but none of the pumps worked, it was speculated the gas station was either built prior to the soviet invasion or during soviet occupation, either way they failed to uphold it and had to resort to gas cans to deliver fuel.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Yeah, about 1200 bucks for a replacement Prius battery, about two thousand for a Volt battery and close to 2500-3000 for a Tesla battery. Any of the above are usually (99% of the time) good for about 200,000 to 300,000 miles.
(HINT: Almost NO ONE buys replacement batteries direct from the dealers, except for Tesla, but they make their own units in house.)

Worn out lithium ion and Nickel Metal-hydride batteries get recycled and remanufactured.
It's always been that way.
You can save lots of money if you have an old EV and you purchase a remanufactured battery.

The same companies that recycle and remanufacture Li-Ion and NiMh battery packs for lawn tools and other appliances, and for professional cinematography gear and the like, also do the same with automotive battery packs.
It is a thriving industry.

So, tell us, buggy whip maker, why is two to three hundred thousand miles on an automotive traction battery such a terrible deal?

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From my experience they are not good for 2-300k miles unless you drive that in a two year period. Vehicles like the prius are known for battery failures, many service centers or dealers keep reman batteries in stock to swap, and the prius does not have a battery, it has a crapload of batteries, the service centers test them yearly and swap out bad batteries for reman batteries, often costing up to a few thousand a year in battery swaps depending on where you live.

Those batteries are poor, hybrids cost does not justify their existence especially when pure gas vehicles can match them in mpg without the extra cost, most insurance companies charge a premium to insure a hyrbris, and between electric and hybrid vehicles you might be left to die in a wreck. This happened locally probably about a year ago with a hybrid, they could not shut off the power and the rescue crew deemed it safer to let the man die vs risking killing multiple firefighters to get him out of a vehicle with enough power to frie a human to death in less than a second.

And I will tell you now, the first thing police firefighters etc look for is disconnecting the battery, if it is not easily accessible few would risk multiple peoples lives trying to cut the vehicle open to save anyone after a wreck. This is not to say electric and hybrid vehicles will always be unsafe, but rather saying until now they only used half their ass when it came to safety, and would continue to do so until the feds mandate them at the same safety levels they do gas vehicles.

beerftw said:

Vehicles like the prius are known for battery failures....

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Cool story bro :roll:

Back in the real world, the AAA and groups tracks the typical cost of maintenance for autos. The Prius is one of the cheapest vehicles to own, period.

Those batteries are poor, hybrids cost does not justify their existence especially when pure gas vehicles can match them in mpg without the extra cost

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Toyota Camry LE/SE: 32mpg
Toyota Camry Hybrid LE/SE: 52mph

It's only with some of the SUVs that hybrids don't make much sense. But even that varies from model to model, e.g. the RAV4 hybrid gets 40mph, vs 30mpg for the gas version.

....between electric and hybrid vehicles you might be left to die in a wreck. This happened locally probably about a year ago with a hybrid, they could not shut off the power and the rescue crew deemed it safer to let the man die vs risking killing multiple firefighters to get him out of a vehicle with enough power to frie a human to death in less than a second.

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:roll:

Spare us the bull**** please, kthx. Back in the real world, hybrids and EVs shut down their batteries in a crash; the only issue is if a first responder literally drills into a battery (and auto manufacturers often train first responders on how to avoid that). Auto makers were aware of and addressing those potential issues at least a decade ago (e.g. How Do First Responders Act Around a Crashed Hybrid or EV?)

In fact, hybrids are safer in a crash. They have more mass (which means they crumple less); as a result, the death rate for hybrid drivers is lower.

The amount of inaccurate FUD in this thread is mind-boggling.

Visbek said:

Cool story bro :roll:

Back in the real world, the AAA and groups tracks the typical cost of maintenance for autos. The Prius is one of the cheapest vehicles to own, period.



Toyota Camry LE/SE: 32mpg
Toyota Camry Hybrid LE/SE: 52mph

It's only with some of the SUVs that hybrids don't make much sense. But even that varies from model to model, e.g. the RAV4 hybrid gets 40mph, vs 30mpg for the gas version.



:roll:

Spare us the bull**** please, kthx. Back in the real world, hybrids and EVs shut down their batteries in a crash; the only issue is if a first responder literally drills into a battery (and auto manufacturers often train first responders on how to avoid that). Auto makers were aware of and addressing those potential issues at least a decade ago (e.g. How Do First Responders Act Around a Crashed Hybrid or EV?)

In fact, hybrids are safer in a crash. They have more mass (which means they crumple less); as a result, the death rate for hybrid drivers is lower.

The amount of inaccurate FUD in this thread is mind-boggling.

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They had fricken cars in the 80's with pure gas push 50-60 mpg so the hybrid is not special, they have hondas and hyundais and kias that can near match that, and the hybrid prius only gets that if you drive like a grandma, there is a reason even now despite being out for nearly 2 decades I can count on one hand outside a few major cities prius owners.

The cost is heavy, for quite a few 1200 a year just on batteries, that is not including oil changes or anything else. Considering no gas engine costs 1.2k a year in batteries due to high failure rate I doubt they are lower on cost unless cost was redefined in a special way to make hybrids look better.


Oh hybrids and ev do not shut down their vehicles in a crash, you only wish that, that requires a functioning system to shut them down, and the computer controls for such are easily damaged in a wreck. I literally take it you probably read everything tesla says but never actually worked on such vehicles? I will gove you a hint on a hybrid the orange wire has enough volts and amps to not only kill you but a few dozen people if they could huddle together close enough while you touched the wire. They are high voltage systems and very poorly planned, and a computer controlled shutoff only works if the computer survives, and the shutoff can not stop the battery bank from shorting out prior to any shutoff, this is simple electronics known for over a century.


If you want to play this game you better be ready to understand electrical theory before opening your mouth as well as automobile technology.

beerftw said:

They had fricken cars in the 80's with pure gas push 50-60 mpg so the hybrid is not special....

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Funny how they don't make those cars anymore, huh?

they have hondas and hyundais and kias that can near match that

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Not so much.

The best mileage for gas-powered Hyundais, for example, top out at 41mpg; the equivalent hybrids top out at 59mpg.

The best gas mileage Honda is the Civic Hatchback, at 40/31 (hwy/city). The Insight is 55/49.

the hybrid prius only gets that if you drive like a grandma

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Uh, hello? The same goes for maxing out the mileage of gas-powered vehicles. Hybrids also get significantly better mileage in city / stop-and-go traffic, where pretty much everyone has to "drive like a grandma."

there is a reason even now despite being out for nearly 2 decades I can count on one hand outside a few major cities prius owners.

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So the measure of a vehicle class' popularity and viability is... how many people you personally know how have them? lol

Well, if that's the case, then nobody buys trucks because I don't know anyone who owns one. See how that works?

The cost is heavy....

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No, it isn't. E.g. The 8 cars that cost the least to maintain - Business Insider

Costs are even lower for EVs, which are relatively simple compared to gas vehicles. A gas vehicle's drivetrain can have 2000 parts; an EV has 20.

for quite a few 1200 a year just on batteries

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Where are you getting this from?

Oh hybrids and ev do not shut down their vehicles in a crash, you only wish that....

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No, dude, it's just a fact. EV/hybrids have crash detection systems which shut down the HV. The batteries are also fully isolated from the chassis for safety as well.

From a paper that Daimler submitted to the NHTSA in 2009:

All safety
relevant components of the high-voltage system have
been integrated and protected in a safe manner. This
is particularly true for the high voltage battery. The
HV-system has been isolated and protected against
any contacts, and it will be shut-off in any accident.
In the future Mercedes-Benz hybrid- and electric
vehicles, this safety concept will be enhanced
consistently, by utilizing the Mercedes-Benz safety
philosophy of “Real Life Safety”. Its key elements
are:
- A foolproof strategy to cut-off the high voltage in
accidents will prevent any electric shocks.
- A concept of protection zones defines the accident
proof placement of all the safety relevant high
voltage components along with the highest possible
structural safety.
- Mechanical requirements for HV-components
ensure the electric insulation and shock-proof
protection.
- An integrated safety concept shall prevent any
critical damages to the high voltage battery in case of
high crash loadings.
https://www-esv.nhtsa.dot.gov/Proceedings/22/files/22ESV-000096.pdf

Again, spare us the FUD, kthx.

The fact that sill bothers me about electric cars is how out of no where they burn down, and sometime burn down houses with them.

marke said:

What's it take, a hundred times more land area to create solar power compared to nuclear?

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The problem of safe storage and disposal of nuclear waste has yet to be solved. Are you aware of what happened when they tried to build two nuclear power plants a hundred miles SW of you? VC Summer and Alvin W. Vogtle.


Maybe we ni the US could spend a few billion dollars updated our electrical grid and buying t lines in rural areas where the weather can three power distribution. Other countries did it in the 1950-60s. that upgrade would cost less than a war, bailing out corporations or farmers or another stupid tax cut that doesn't create jobs, despite the precious religious beliefs of the rabid MAGAites.