• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

Stealers Wheel

Stealers Wheel

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Messages
10,635
Reaction score
10,617
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I have never faced the challenges of being a minority, female, gay, or transgender. In other words, I'm a straight white male. However, I empathize with those who do face those challenges in part because of one insignificant episode while I was in grade school.

My given name is "Barney" and I preferred to be called by my middle name "David." (names have been changed to protect the innocent here).

There was one teacher, an old man, who refused to call me David. I asked him nicely to address me as David and his response was "Your registration card says 'Barney' so 'Barney' it is!"

I'm embarrassed to admit just how much that affected my relationship with that teacher. My grades suffered as a result, as did my ability to learn from that teacher. Something as simple as how I wanted to be identified and a belligerent teacher who refused to take my preference seriously had an impact. Well, that was about 50 years ago, but I still remember it like it was yesterday.

Virginia is being sued because a belligerent teacher refuses to comply with the law that requires teachers to address students by their preferred pronouns. I can relate.


Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN
 
Sorry, you do not get to use your public position to enforce a religious belief.

Decided when we wrote the constitution.

You fail, cons.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
I have never faced the challenges of being a minority, female, gay, or transgender. In other words, I'm a straight white male. However, I empathize with those who do face those challenges in part because of one insignificant episode while I was in grade school.

My given name is "Barney" and I preferred to be called by my middle name "David." (names have been changed to protect the innocent here).

There was one teacher, an old man, who refused to call me David. I asked him nicely to address me as David and his response was "Your registration card says 'Barney' so 'Barney' it is!"

I'm embarrassed to admit just how much that affected my relationship with that teacher. My grades suffered as a result, as did my ability to learn from that teacher. Something as simple as how I wanted to be identified and a belligerent teacher who refused to take my preference seriously had an impact. Well, that was about 50 years ago, but I still remember it like it was yesterday.

Virginia is being sued because a belligerent teacher refuses to comply with the law that requires teachers to address students by their preferred pronouns. I can relate.


Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN
Click to expand...

Hmmm, where does free expression end, and enforced speech begin? That appears to be the question here.

From the CNN article:

He consistently used the student's preferred male name and attempted to avoid the use of any pronouns at all, his lawsuit says.
Click to expand...
Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN

The school policy cited is here:

West Point Public Schools does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, ancestry, political affiliation, sex, gender, gender identity, age, marital status, genetic information, disability as defined by law.
Click to expand...
Human Resources - West Point Public Schools

The alleged "legal precedent" cited in the article is here:

Litigation Update: Title IX Cases Related to Transgender Students Are Not Just Going Away — KSB School Law

Note there is nothing in that citation referring to use of pronouns.

As for the Virginia codes? A cursory search using variations on "use of pronouns" found no requirement to use such pronouns by school personnel. (They may exist, I just didn't find it.)

Now I personally have no problems with using "preferred pronouns" if asked by someone I am speaking to. It's just common courtesy.

I also think this teacher is being unreasonable in this regard, as it doesn't hurt him to extend such courtesy.

However, I am against compulsory speech requirements. Don't tell me what I have to say, that infringes on MY free speech.

So the teacher used the student's preferred name, but avoided any use of pronouns? What is the deal?
 
Last edited:
Captain Adverse said:
Hmmm, where does free expression end, and enforced speech begin? That appears to be the question here.

From the CNN article:

Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN

The school policy cited is here:

Human Resources - West Point Public Schools

The alleged "legal precedent" cited in the article is here:

Litigation Update: Title IX Cases Related to Transgender Students Are Not Just Going Away — KSB School Law

Note there is nothing in that citation referring to use of pronouns.

As for the Virginia codes? A cursory search using variations on "use of pronouns" found no requirement to use such pronouns by school personnel. (They may exist, I just didn't find it.)

Now I personally have no problems with using "preferred pronouns" if asked by someone I am speaking to. It's just common courtesy.

I also think this teacher is being unreasonable in this regard, as it doesn't hurt him to extend such courtesy.

However, I am against compulsory speech requirements. Don't tell me what I have to say, that infringes on MY free speech.

So the teacher used the student's preferred name, but avoided any use of pronouns? What is the deal?
Click to expand...

Singling a student out by refusing to use any pronouns is discrimination. If he doesn't avoid pronouns for every other student then he is treating trans students differently and that is discrimination.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Hmmm, where does free expression end, and enforced speech begin? That appears to be the question here.

From the CNN article:

Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN

The school policy cited is here:

Human Resources - West Point Public Schools

The alleged "legal precedent" cited in the article is here:

Litigation Update: Title IX Cases Related to Transgender Students Are Not Just Going Away — KSB School Law

Note there is nothing in that citation referring to use of pronouns.

As for the Virginia codes? A cursory search using variations on "use of pronouns" found no requirement to use such pronouns by school personnel. (They may exist, I just didn't find it.)

Now I personally have no problems with using "preferred pronouns" if asked by someone I am speaking to. It's just common courtesy.

I also think this teacher is being unreasonable in this regard, as it doesn't hurt him to extend such courtesy.

However, I am against compulsory speech requirements. Don't tell me what I have to say, that infringes on MY free speech.

So the teacher used the student's preferred name, but avoided any use of pronouns? What is the deal?
Click to expand...

Also from the piece:

The teacher wasn't fired simply because of a pronoun, but rather because he was behaving in violation of school policy, judicial precedent and the state's Department of Education code of ethics.

As a public school teacher, Vlaming was, of course, a government employee.

You may believe that same-sex couples shouldn't be allowed to get married, but if you're a government employee processing that couple's taxes, you must still acknowledge that they are married. You may not believe that a woman should have a child out of wedlock, but as a government employee, you must still cut her social services disbursement check if she qualifies for it.
Click to expand...

In other words, asa government employee, you don't get to decide which laws, regulations, or policies you adhere to. That's why he was fired.

By refusing to acknowledge this student's identity, Vlaming created a hostile learning environment.
Click to expand...

And, after being appropriately admonished to refrain from creating a hostile learning environment, the teacher refused to comply and was dismissed.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Also from the piece:



In other words, asa government employee, you don't get to decide which laws, regulations, or policies you adhere to. That's why he was fired.

And, after being appropriately admonished to refrain from creating a hostile learning environment, the teacher refused to comply and was dismissed.
Click to expand...

I believe I addressed each of those points in the response you quoted. I guess you missed that?

Bottom line, I am simply not an advocate of "compelled speech." It violates all ideal. regarding free speech.

Wasn't that the argument used to stop school prayer, reciting the pledge of allegiance, and all sorts of other "school codes" we no longer see enforced?

It is one thing to prevent abusive speech. But telling someone what they MUST say?

So now we are compelling speech?
 
Last edited:
Captain Adverse said:
I believe I addressed each of those points in the response you quoted. I guess you missed that?

Bottom line, I am simply not an advocate of "compelled speech." It violates all ideal. regarding free speech.

Wasn't that the argument used to stop school prayer, reciting the pledge of allegiance, and all sorts of other "school codes" we no longer see enforced?

It is one thing to prevent abusive speech. But telling someone what they MUST say?

So now we are compelling speech?
Click to expand...

I am compelled to speak to customers, and to use their preferred term of address whenever I go to my job. Is that a violation of my free speech? Why should this teacher get to ignore their boss if I don't?
 
Irredentist said:
Singling a student out by refusing to use any pronouns is discrimination. If he doesn't avoid pronouns for every other student then he is treating trans students differently and that is discrimination.
Click to expand...

But you could go on all day like this.

Using a different pronoun to the one they were born with is also discrimination then.
 
Frigidweirdo said:
But you could go on all day like this.

Using a different pronoun to the one they were born with is also discrimination then.
Click to expand...

Not true, because every student has the right to a preferred pronoun that teachers should respect, whether cis or trans.
 
Captain Adverse said:
I believe I addressed each of those points in the response you quoted. I guess you missed that?

Bottom line, I am simply not an advocate of "compelled speech." It violates all ideal. regarding free speech.

Wasn't that the argument used to stop school prayer, reciting the pledge of allegiance, and all sorts of other "school codes" we no longer see enforced?

It is one thing to prevent abusive speech. But telling someone what they MUST say?

So now we are compelling speech?
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea how emotionally devastating it can be to a child, already facing the reality that they are not like most of their classmates to have a teacher single them out every time they are addressed in front of their classmates? He might as well have addressed them as "HEY FREAK!" Do you think the classmates would be universally compelled to show compassion to this child, based on the teacher's behavior?

Oh, but God forbid we should compel a school teacher to exhibit some human decency to a student, because "it violates his conscience."
 
Last edited:
Irredentist said:
Not true, because every student has the right to a preferred pronoun that teachers should respect, whether cis or trans.
Click to expand...

They have the right to this? No, I disagree.

I'd say good teaching would be that teachers respect their students. But a right to a preferred pronoun, I can imagine what school would have looked like if this so called "right" were enshrined.

"Sir, I want the pronoun of '****' and if you don't use it, you're fired"
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Do you have any idea how emotionally devastating it can be to a child, already facing the reality that they are not like most of their classmates to have a teacher single them out every time they are addressed in from of their classmates? He might as well have addressed them as "HEY FREAK!" Do you think the classmates would be universally compelled to show compassion to this child, based on the teacher's behavior?

Oh, but God forbid we should compel a school teacher to exhibit some human decency to a student, because "it violates his conscience."
Click to expand...

lol and so what are you going to do when all the teachers use the pronouns they want for the kids but couldn't give a **** about actually teaching them anything because they are too busy trying to remember everyone's pronouns and think this crap is stupid? because that is where this compelled stuff leads.


are we going to have brain scans to make sure you are truly enthusiastic someday?
 
Frigidweirdo said:
They have the right to this? No, I disagree.

I'd say good teaching would be that teachers respect their students. But a right to a preferred pronoun, I can imagine what school would have looked like if this so called "right" were enshrined.

"Sir, I want the pronoun of '****' and if you don't use it, you're fired"
Click to expand...

There are only a limited selection of personal pronouns in the english language, and I shall list them for you now. I, You, He, She, We, It, They, and their variations. Do you foresee any problems allowing students to pick any of these?
 
I have a very libertarian bent on these sorts of issues. You can prefer to be called zi, xir, it, Emperor Napoleon, or a ham sandwich as far as I am concerned.

On the other hand, though you have this right, I'm not sure where you get the right to force others to call you what you wish to be called.

You can say "it's decency" or "it's respect" but there is no right to decency or to have people respect your choices.

Now, on the other hand, when it comes to employers, I'd say they should probably be able to set what policy they like and fire people who don't follow it.

Now, on the other hand, there may be some additional burdens on government employers...
 
Captain Adverse said:
So the teacher used the student's preferred name, but avoided any use of pronouns? What is the deal?
Click to expand...

Excellent points in that post. I’ve also found it rather rude to be addressed with a pronoun when I’m in the room. I have a name. But maybe that’s just me.

diz said:
I have a very libertarian bent on these sorts of issues. You can prefer to be called zi, xir, it, Emperor Napoleon, or a ham sandwich as far as I am concerned.
Click to expand...

:)
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Virginia is being sued because a belligerent teacher refuses to comply with the law that requires teachers to address students by their preferred pronouns. I can relate.
Click to expand...

I can solve this problem.

If you are born with a dangler, that means you are a boy, or "he." If you are born without a dangler, SHAZAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that means you are a girl, or "she." There, see how easy that was? It's called common sense.

What the sam hell is a "preferred pronoun" anyway?
 
Irredentist said:
I am compelled to speak to customers, and to use their preferred term of address whenever I go to my job. Is that a violation of my free speech? Why should this teacher get to ignore their boss if I don't?
Click to expand...

So when someone that looks like a dude approaches you, what do you say? "Good morning, madam." Or, "May I help you miss?"
 
diz said:
I have a very libertarian bent on these sorts of issues. You can prefer to be called zi, xir, it, Emperor Napoleon, or a ham sandwich as far as I am concerned.

On the other hand, though you have this right, I'm not sure where you get the right to force others to call you what you wish to be called.

You can say "it's decency" or "it's respect" but there is no right to decency or to have people respect your choices.

Now, on the other hand, when it comes to employers, I'd say they should probably be able to set what policy they like and fire people who don't follow it.

Now, on the other hand, there may be some additional burdens on government employers...
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. We need to teach our children that they are not 'entitled' to respect or decency. We need to teach them that if someone is in a position of authority over them (in this case a teacher) that person has the right to disrespect you any time they like. If they want to call you by their favorite nickname for you, (hey faggy boy!) instead of your preferred name, you just have to suck it up. If the teacher chooses to encourage your classmates to disrespect you as well by using your teacher's preferred nickname, that is his prerogative. Children have no rights and they need to learn this first. Either comply with the majority's norms, or expect others to mock and ridicule you. We're not about to curtail someone's 'free speech' to make some weirdo misfit feel better about themselves, right?
 
Simple: It's requiring someone to tell what they believe is a lie.

Irredentist said:
I am compelled to speak to customers, and to use their preferred term of address whenever I go to my job. Is that a violation of my free speech? Why should this teacher get to ignore their boss if I don't?
Click to expand...
 
I'm still waiting for you all to recognize me as a battleship and address me as such.



:roll:
 
Perhaps we can solve the problem by hiring more H1B-type visas for teachers. It will provide a contingent of low-cost, compliant teachers.
 
SDET said:
Perhaps we can solve the problem by hiring more H1B-type visas for teachers. It will provide a contingent of low-cost, compliant teachers.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the answer! We need to pay teachers less. That's the ticket! That will solve this issue.
 
beancounter said:
I'm still waiting for you all to recognize me as a battleship and address me as such.



:roll:
Click to expand...

if I recognize you as a battleship, can I then state that you are outdated compared to my aircraft carrier group-self?

or would that be inappropriate?
 
It's not just the money. Indian workers will do what ever you tell them to do, even if it means telling what they believe to be a lie.

Stealers Wheel said:
Yes, that's the answer! We need to pay teachers less. That's the ticket! That will solve this issue.
Click to expand...
 
If someone want's to be recognized as a battleship, can I call them the USS Asshole?

Hypothetical said:
if I recognize you as a battleship, can I then state that you are outdated compared to my aircraft carrier group-self?

or would that be inappropriate?
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom