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Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

nope.. see post 148.

yep your factually did, nothign you say or post lies about will change that fact
post 149 is meaningless

wow your posts just cant stop making stuff up can they LMAO
 
No it wasn't.

The post I responded to.. was stating that "what if I (as a pilot) didn't have to use standard language etc (with a traffic controller) ..would that be okay".

Well..if you are using that in an analogy of the classroom.. ... the STANDARD would be that biological girls.. are called she.. and biological boys.. are called he.

that's the standard that has been in place for a long long time. Right or wrong.. whatever you want to argue. but its the standard.

To make that analogy of the air traffic control to work.. it would have to be that individual air traffic controllers could decide on their own when they wanted to deviate from the standard..and pilots would be forced to go with their wishes. (if we are going to make it an analogous to the school system)..

He was talking about compelled speech. The poster he replied to said that compelled speech is wrong and against 1st Amendment. He was using the air traffic controller as a rebuttal to his point. Is it wrong to compel them to use the standard terminologies?

Btw standard implies deviation. Sorry you walked right into that one.
 
What if the air traffic control required you to use different phraseology depending on what that particular air traffic control person felt like that day?

Just saying this issue isn't that easy as its made out to be.

Irrelevant. My speech is compelled, is it not? The poster I responded to said compelled speech is wrong.
 
He defied a direct order from the school board. If I refused to call a trans customer by their preferred pronouns, I'd be fired too, what makes this guy deserve better?

**** the school board. Those pansies are capitulators to lunatics.
 
He was talking about compelled speech. The poster he replied to said that compelled speech is wrong and against 1st Amendment. He was using the air traffic controller as a rebuttal to his point. Is it wrong to compel them to use the standard terminologies?

Btw standard implies deviation. Sorry you walked right into that one.

Well.. as I point out.. that if were using the air traffic controller as an analogy to the classroom... the question is "is it wrong to compel them to deviate from standard terminologies".

because that's what is being done here.. compelling the teacher to deviate from the standard terminologies and punishing him if he has trouble doing so.

For better or worse.. whatever you want to argue.. the fact is.. that the use of gender pronouns like he and she.. are based on biological and societal cues.. that are ingrained and taught from childhood on. AND they generally work. those biological and societal cues.. work.

In fact.. so much so.. that its considered an insult when you call a person a girl.. when clearly all their biological cues etc.. indicates a male. OR vice versa.
 
I have never faced the challenges of being a minority, female, gay, or transgender. In other words, I'm a straight white male. However, I empathize with those who do face those challenges in part because of one insignificant episode while I was in grade school.

My given name is "Barney" and I preferred to be called by my middle name "David." (names have been changed to protect the innocent here).

There was one teacher, an old man, who refused to call me David. I asked him nicely to address me as David and his response was "Your registration card says 'Barney' so 'Barney' it is!"

I'm embarrassed to admit just how much that affected my relationship with that teacher. My grades suffered as a result, as did my ability to learn from that teacher. Something as simple as how I wanted to be identified and a belligerent teacher who refused to take my preference seriously had an impact. Well, that was about 50 years ago, but I still remember it like it was yesterday.

Virginia is being sued because a belligerent teacher refuses to comply with the law that requires teachers to address students by their preferred pronouns. I can relate.


Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call (opinion) - CNN

Teachers have to follow the rules of employment. If they don't, then they will lose their jobs.
 
Well.. as I point out.. that if were using the air traffic controller as an analogy to the classroom... the question is "is it wrong to compel them to deviate from standard terminologies".

because that's what is being done here.. compelling the teacher to deviate from the standard terminologies and punishing him if he has trouble doing so.

For better or worse.. whatever you want to argue.. the fact is.. that the use of gender pronouns like he and she.. are based on biological and societal cues.. that are ingrained and taught from childhood on. AND they generally work. those biological and societal cues.. work.

In fact.. so much so.. that its considered an insult when you call a person a girl.. when clearly all their biological cues etc.. indicates a male. OR vice versa.

You've just proved our argument. You mentioned societal cues. Thats exactly what it is. Gender is a social role.
 
Irrelevant. My speech is compelled, is it not? The poster I responded to said compelled speech is wrong.

Not irrelevant. Some speech that is compelled is wrong. that's the point that was made.

All compelled speech is not wrong. Obviously.. compelling a pilot to use standard terminology..or a surgeon since its a condition of the success on the job.. is okay.

but compelled speech that is not relevant to the job.. or worse.. makes the chances of a successful job completion less likely.. is not okay.

If you want to split hairs. Neither you.. nor the poster you responded to would be completely wrong nor completely right in your premise.

That's why this issue isn't as easy as its made out to be.
 
Not irrelevant. Some speech that is compelled is wrong. that's the point that was made.

All compelled speech is not wrong. Obviously.. compelling a pilot to use standard terminology..or a surgeon since its a condition of the success on the job.. is okay.

but compelled speech that is not relevant to the job.. or worse.. makes the chances of a successful job completion less likely.. is not okay.

If you want to split hairs. Neither you.. nor the poster you responded to would be completely wrong nor completely right in your premise.

That's why this issue isn't as easy as its made out to be.

It is relevant to teaching job because the students are supposed to feel welcome and equal, not dismissed as an "outsider". The classroom is supposed to be conductive to learning and understanding.
 
You've just proved our argument. You mentioned societal cues. Thats exactly what it is. Gender is a social role.

And a biological one as well.

By the way.. I did not prove your argument. You are pretty much proving mine. Tell me.. and be honest. A person with long hair, obvious mammary glands, wearing lipstick, heels and wearing a dress drops their purse...

Do you automatically say " SIR.. you dropped your purse".

Do you not say anything because you don't know what the person identifies as...

Or do you say "miss..you dropped your purse"?

How often would you be correct in gender identifier do you think if this happened 100 times?

We use both societal and biological cues to determine gender for a variety of reasons. It has a purpose.
 
It is relevant to teaching job because the students are supposed to feel welcome and equal, not dismissed as an "outsider". The classroom is supposed to be conductive to learning and understanding.

Well and there is the rub here. I don't think there is enough evidence so far to indicated either way whether the teachers behavior was relevant to the teaching job.

As I understand..the teacher did call the person by the name they wished. It seems it was an issue of whether he referred to the person as she or he. Which seems to be a little confusing..because how often are you talking to a student and using a pronoun like she o he in reference to that person.?

"he puts the pencils in the basket"?

Now.. if the teacher is going out of their way to ostracize the child? there is a problem.

If the teacher is telling other students.. "I would never accept HIM as a HER because its wrong"...

Yep... You got a point and the teacher is being a douche and can and should be fired.

If on the other hand.. the teacher keeps slipping up and saying to other teachers.. or even students... "Bob is a great athlete.. she really pushes herself in the gym."

Yeah I am not that sure. Gender identifiers are biological and societal and start when we are children. Its not that easy to change that.. especially since 99.9% of the time..those gender identifiers are not only correct.. but society demands you use those identifiers.
 
And a biological one as well.

By the way.. I did not prove your argument. You are pretty much proving mine. Tell me.. and be honest. A person with long hair, obvious mammary glands, wearing lipstick, heels and wearing a dress drops their purse...

Do you automatically say " SIR.. you dropped your purse".

Do you not say anything because you don't know what the person identifies as...

Or do you say "miss..you dropped your purse"?

How often would you be correct in gender identifier do you think if this happened 100 times?

We use both societal and biological cues to determine gender for a variety of reasons. It has a purpose.

Thank you for proving my argument once again. In your scenario, the lady might actually be transgender. So the cue would lead you to call her miss. I had a friend who is a transgender. When I met her, I never suspected it.
 
Thank you for proving my argument once again. In your scenario, the lady might actually be transgender. So the cue would lead you to call her miss. I had a friend who is a transgender. When I met her, I never suspected it.

Actually you proved my point. Yep.. the lady MIGHT be transgender.

you just said that when I met her.. I "NEVER SUSPECTED IT".. because you were using the biological and societal cues for a female.. which the friend must have been emulating. (interesting.. to be seen as THAT gender).

In fact.. if you never suspected that the person was transgender and not biologically female... its because the transgender person went out of their way to present themselves biologically and societally as female.

And why? Because the biological and societal cues are that strong.
 
Actually you proved my point. Yep.. the lady MIGHT be transgender.

you just said that when I met her.. I "NEVER SUSPECTED IT".. because you were using the biological and societal cues for a female.. which the friend must have been emulating. (interesting.. to be seen as THAT gender).

In fact.. if you never suspected that the person was transgender and not biologically female... its because the transgender person went out of their way to present themselves biologically and societally as female.

And why? Because the biological and societal cues are that strong.

Well then I guess we agree? :lamo
Now back to the student in question, if he dresses, talks and looks like a male, the cue would be strong enough to refer him as he. The teacher refusal to follow that cue because of his fake beliefs is exactly what got him in trouble.
 
What does his or her birth certificate say? If that is what the teacher was going by, there is no problem.
 
What does his or her birth certificate say? If that is what the teacher was going by, there is no problem.

I wonder what he would have referred an intersex student as. Heshe?
 
Well then I guess we agree? :lamo
Now back to the student in question, if he dresses, talks and looks like a male, the cue would be strong enough to refer him as he. .

IF.. the only experience with that person was as that of a male. However, if the experience for several years was as a female? Much more difficult.

And it would depend on how good those cues would be. Unless the child has undergone surgery.. or has had hormone replacement, etc... its very possible that while the child dresses like a male... the speech (which would not have the sexual characteristics of a male after puberty).. and the facial characteristics.. etc.. would not be male.

Now.. if you were to take someone like that "Jazz".. that my wife is fond of watching. She looks so strongly female..that I think someone calling her a guy would just be someone being a jerk. (though I have not seen her in a while.. so I don't know what has happened on how she looks now).
 
Not irrelevant. Some speech that is compelled is wrong. that's the point that was made.

All compelled speech is not wrong. Obviously.. compelling a pilot to use standard terminology..or a surgeon since its a condition of the success on the job.. is okay.

but compelled speech that is not relevant to the job.. or worse.. makes the chances of a successful job completion less likely.. is not okay.

If you want to split hairs. Neither you.. nor the poster you responded to would be completely wrong nor completely right in your premise.

That's why this issue isn't as easy as its made out to be.

except THIS issue based on the topic has already been prove to be very easy, nothign you posted changes that, hence why you keep failing
 
To step off the discussion for a bit, this lady is an example of how people would be confused. She is 100% female and identifies as female. I wonder how often she hears people call her sir or mister.

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except THIS issue based on the topic has already been prove to be very easy, nothign you posted changes that, hence why you keep failing

Yada yada yada,... if you have something worthwhile to bring to the conversation...I suggest you do so...

I have already proven the topic is not as easy as its made out.

But go ahead.. and post that research that shows its easy for adults to ignore a lifetime of biological and societal cues when it comes to gender.
 
Not irrelevant. Some speech that is compelled is wrong. that's the point that was made.

All compelled speech is not wrong. Obviously.. compelling a pilot to use standard terminology..or a surgeon since its a condition of the success on the job.. is okay.

but compelled speech that is not relevant to the job.. or worse.. makes the chances of a successful job completion less likely.. is not okay.

If you want to split hairs. Neither you.. nor the poster you responded to would be completely wrong nor completely right in your premise.

That's why this issue isn't as easy as its made out to be.

Ok great.

Compelling a teacher to treat a student respectfully is not wrong.
 
1.) Yada yada yada,... if you have something worthwhile to bring to the conversation...I suggest you do so...
2.)I have already proven the topic is not as easy as its made out.
3.)But go ahead.. and post that research that shows its easy for adults to ignore a lifetime of biological and societal cues when it comes to gender.
1.) already done and it destroyed your conspiracy theories, deflections ands strawmen at ever turn
2.) only to yourself and not based on facts and reality, not even close hence the thread history further exposes that reality LMAO
3.) BOOM!! and there it is another failed deflection and strawman that doesn't matter one bit:2rofll:

thanks for proving me right again! Wow so awesome and so easy!
 
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