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Thread: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

  1. #161
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    You've just proved our argument. You mentioned societal cues. Thats exactly what it is. Gender is a social role.
    And a biological one as well.

    By the way.. I did not prove your argument. You are pretty much proving mine. Tell me.. and be honest. A person with long hair, obvious mammary glands, wearing lipstick, heels and wearing a dress drops their purse...

    Do you automatically say " SIR.. you dropped your purse".

    Do you not say anything because you don't know what the person identifies as...

    Or do you say "miss..you dropped your purse"?

    How often would you be correct in gender identifier do you think if this happened 100 times?

    We use both societal and biological cues to determine gender for a variety of reasons. It has a purpose.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    It is relevant to teaching job because the students are supposed to feel welcome and equal, not dismissed as an "outsider". The classroom is supposed to be conductive to learning and understanding.
    Well and there is the rub here. I don't think there is enough evidence so far to indicated either way whether the teachers behavior was relevant to the teaching job.

    As I understand..the teacher did call the person by the name they wished. It seems it was an issue of whether he referred to the person as she or he. Which seems to be a little confusing..because how often are you talking to a student and using a pronoun like she o he in reference to that person.?

    "he puts the pencils in the basket"?

    Now.. if the teacher is going out of their way to ostracize the child? there is a problem.

    If the teacher is telling other students.. "I would never accept HIM as a HER because its wrong"...

    Yep... You got a point and the teacher is being a douche and can and should be fired.

    If on the other hand.. the teacher keeps slipping up and saying to other teachers.. or even students... "Bob is a great athlete.. she really pushes herself in the gym."

    Yeah I am not that sure. Gender identifiers are biological and societal and start when we are children. Its not that easy to change that.. especially since 99.9% of the time..those gender identifiers are not only correct.. but society demands you use those identifiers.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    And a biological one as well.

    By the way.. I did not prove your argument. You are pretty much proving mine. Tell me.. and be honest. A person with long hair, obvious mammary glands, wearing lipstick, heels and wearing a dress drops their purse...

    Do you automatically say " SIR.. you dropped your purse".

    Do you not say anything because you don't know what the person identifies as...

    Or do you say "miss..you dropped your purse"?

    How often would you be correct in gender identifier do you think if this happened 100 times?

    We use both societal and biological cues to determine gender for a variety of reasons. It has a purpose.
    Thank you for proving my argument once again. In your scenario, the lady might actually be transgender. So the cue would lead you to call her miss. I had a friend who is a transgender. When I met her, I never suspected it.
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Thank you for proving my argument once again. In your scenario, the lady might actually be transgender. So the cue would lead you to call her miss. I had a friend who is a transgender. When I met her, I never suspected it.
    Actually you proved my point. Yep.. the lady MIGHT be transgender.

    you just said that when I met her.. I "NEVER SUSPECTED IT".. because you were using the biological and societal cues for a female.. which the friend must have been emulating. (interesting.. to be seen as THAT gender).

    In fact.. if you never suspected that the person was transgender and not biologically female... its because the transgender person went out of their way to present themselves biologically and societally as female.

    And why? Because the biological and societal cues are that strong.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Actually you proved my point. Yep.. the lady MIGHT be transgender.

    you just said that when I met her.. I "NEVER SUSPECTED IT".. because you were using the biological and societal cues for a female.. which the friend must have been emulating. (interesting.. to be seen as THAT gender).

    In fact.. if you never suspected that the person was transgender and not biologically female... its because the transgender person went out of their way to present themselves biologically and societally as female.

    And why? Because the biological and societal cues are that strong.
    Well then I guess we agree?
    Now back to the student in question, if he dresses, talks and looks like a male, the cue would be strong enough to refer him as he. The teacher refusal to follow that cue because of his fake beliefs is exactly what got him in trouble.
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    What does his or her birth certificate say? If that is what the teacher was going by, there is no problem.

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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by Logical1 View Post
    What does his or her birth certificate say? If that is what the teacher was going by, there is no problem.
    I wonder what he would have referred an intersex student as. Heshe?
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Well then I guess we agree?
    Now back to the student in question, if he dresses, talks and looks like a male, the cue would be strong enough to refer him as he. .
    IF.. the only experience with that person was as that of a male. However, if the experience for several years was as a female? Much more difficult.

    And it would depend on how good those cues would be. Unless the child has undergone surgery.. or has had hormone replacement, etc... its very possible that while the child dresses like a male... the speech (which would not have the sexual characteristics of a male after puberty).. and the facial characteristics.. etc.. would not be male.

    Now.. if you were to take someone like that "Jazz".. that my wife is fond of watching. She looks so strongly female..that I think someone calling her a guy would just be someone being a jerk. (though I have not seen her in a while.. so I don't know what has happened on how she looks now).
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Not irrelevant. Some speech that is compelled is wrong. that's the point that was made.

    All compelled speech is not wrong. Obviously.. compelling a pilot to use standard terminology..or a surgeon since its a condition of the success on the job.. is okay.

    but compelled speech that is not relevant to the job.. or worse.. makes the chances of a successful job completion less likely.. is not okay.

    If you want to split hairs. Neither you.. nor the poster you responded to would be completely wrong nor completely right in your premise.

    That's why this issue isn't as easy as its made out to be.
    except THIS issue based on the topic has already been prove to be very easy, nothign you posted changes that, hence why you keep failing
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    Re: Firing Virginia teacher who misgendered student was the right call

    To step off the discussion for a bit, this lady is an example of how people would be confused. She is 100% female and identifies as female. I wonder how often she hears people call her sir or mister.

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