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What's wrong with Trump investigating Biden corruption? Isn't that his job?

PIPEWRENCH said:
Biden withheld 1 billion dollars from Ukraine using the money to force them to fire the state prosecutor (Shokin). I guess it is only OK when the democrats do it.
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Using aid as pressure is standard political practice. The right and wrong about it has to do with the goals it's used to pressure to get.

It's widely understood that that prosecutor was corrupt. That's a legitimate policy goal.

Using aid to pressure a country to attack an American political opponent is not a legitimate policy goal or use of the power to withhold aid.

Note the consciousness of guilt here. Nothing open about the act - trump lied that he was withholding aid, lied why he was doing so, tried to hide his conversation with Ukraine on the most secret system and limit who could see it, and lied about the reporting about the conversation, calling it 'fake news', before having to release the record of the call showing he'd lied about that.
 
The transcript directly from the White House. Just TRUMP's comments.
Work with Guliiani
find DNC servers
prosecute the Bidens
color coded with links

TRUMP: Congratulations on a great victory. We all watched from the United States and you did a terrific job. The way you came from behind, somebody who wasn't given much of a chance, and you ended up winning easily. It's a fantastic achievement. Congratulations.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: (laughter) That's a very good idea. I think your country is very happy about that.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: Well it is very nice of you to say that. I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it's something that you should really ask them about. When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything. A lot of the European countries are the same way so I think it's something you want to look at but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you're surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it's very important that you do it if that's possible.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that's really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: Well, she's going to go through some things. I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call and I am also going to have Attorney General Barr call and we will get to the bottom of it. I'm sure you will figure it out. I heard the prosecutor was treated very badly and he was a very fair prosecutor so good luck with everything. Your economy is going to get better and better I predict. You have a lot of assets. It's a great country. I have many Ukrainian friends, their incredible people.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: Good. Well, thank you very much and I appreciate that. I will tell Rudy and Attorney General Barr to call. Thank you. Whenever you would like to come to the White House, feel free to call. Give us a date and we'll work that out. I look forward to seeing you.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: Okay, we can work that out. I look forward to seeing you in Washington and maybe in Poland because I think we are going to be there at that time.
Zelenskyy--
TRUMP: Congratulations on a fantastic job you've done. The whole world was watching. I'm not sure it was so much of an upset but congratulations.
Zelenskyy-- bye-bye.
- End -
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
What's wrong with Trump investigating Biden corruption? Isn't that his job?


The Ukranian president needs military aid to defend his country. He's in the midst of a civil war with Russian backed separatists.

Trump will give him aid. Now Trump asks him for a small favor. He wants him to investigate Biden. So what does he need to do to make Trump happy?

Can he come back to Trump and say, "We investigated Biden and found no wrongdoing?" Would that make Trump happy? Would Trump keep sending aid if that were the result of the "investigation"? Of course not.

So, his job would be to investigate but if he could find no evidence of wrongdoing he would need to manufacture some. He would need to convince people to give false testimony against Biden and indict Biden in Ukraine. That's what would make Trump happy.

So, I hope this makes it clear why it's wrong for the president to ask a foreign government to investigate his political opponents.

God help us if we are foolish enough to give presidents this power.
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I don't see anything inherently wrong with Trump's actions based on the transcripts. Some of the Hunter Biden stories are a bit troubling. I didn't vote for either of those two parties last time and I probably won't this time. I just think this fits the same pattern as the last 50 We've Got Trump This Time stories.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
What's wrong with Trump investigating Biden corruption? Isn't that his job?
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You can't ask a question with an assumed premise.


You must demonstrate, either with evidence, or solid logic such that most will agree, first.


Then, and only then, can you ask a question, but it will be with a well established premise that reasonable people will agree with.

No, it's not his job, it's the FBi's job.
 
Drawdown said:
I don't see anything inherently wrong with Trump's actions based on the transcripts. Some of the Hunter Biden stories are a bit troubling. I didn't vote for either of those two parties last time and I probably won't this time. I just think this fits the same pattern as the last 50 We've Got Trump This Time stories.
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Ukraine was being fleeced by oligarchs like the guy who owned Burisma (the company Hunter worked for) when it was controlled by Russian backed Yanukovich. When he fled Ukranians wanted their money back. Western countries like the UK tried to return the stolen assets. Burisma was trying to transfer $23M to Cyprus account. The UK froze the assets and launched a money-laundering investigation. They asked the prosecutor that Biden later had fired for documents to prosecute. He refused. This guy never prosecuted a single oligarch. He was obviously corrupt. The EU and IMF and Ukranians all wanted him gone. His own deputy quit in disgust. That's the guy that Biden had fired. It wasn't Biden's decision alone. So Biden got a guy who REFUSED to prosecute Hunter's company fired. It's the opposite of what Trump and his cult claim.

Trump knew all of this yet he is pressuring Ukrainians to dig up dirt on Biden.
 
OscarLevant said:
You can't ask a question with an assumed premise.


You must demonstrate, either with evidence, or solid logic such that most will agree, first.


Then, and only then, can you ask a question, but it will be with a well established premise that reasonable people will agree with.

No, it's not his job, it's the FBi's job.
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It was purely a rhetorical question. I argued that it is wrong and tried to illustrate WHY it's wrong.

In short, if POTUS asks a foreign government to investigate a political enemy, that government may manufacture evidence to gain favor with POTUS. That's why POTUS should never do this.

The Ukrainians are in a war with Russia. Their survival is at stake. Why not fabricate evidence against Biden if it will get Trump to give more aid? That's just the practical thing to do to survive.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
Ukraine was being fleeced by oligarchs like the guy who owned Burisma (the company Hunter worked for) when it was controlled by Russian backed Yanukovich. When he fled Ukranians wanted their money back. Western countries like the UK tried to return the stolen assets. Burisma was trying to transfer $23M to Cyprus account. The UK froze the assets and launched a money-laundering investigation. They asked the prosecutor that Biden later had fired for documents to prosecute. He refused. This guy never prosecuted a single oligarch. He was obviously corrupt. The EU and IMF and Ukranians all wanted him gone. His own deputy quit in disgust. That's the guy that Biden had fired. It wasn't Biden's decision alone. So Biden got a guy who REFUSED to prosecute Hunter's company fired. It's the opposite of what Trump and his cult claim.

Trump knew all of this yet he is pressuring Ukrainians to dig up dirt on Biden.
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1) My reading of what Trump asked was for him to look into the firing of the prosecutor. At no point did he say anything about "digging up dirt" nor did he add an "or else".

2) After the hoopla about foreigners interfering in our election, the democrats defending Biden using foreign aid he did not even control to extort interfering in an internal government matter of a foreign government cannot be reconciled except in minds with serious cognitive dissonance.

3) If the Ukranians wanted him fired as you allege, they could have fired him well before Biden inappropriately threatened them.

4) Despite your claim that the fired prosecutor was not investigating Biden's son's company when he was fired, I have read multiple reports that indicated otherwise.

5) Lastly, that this was not confined to Biden but reportedly included Obama and others as well is precisely why this whole thing could very well blow back on the democrats. The sitting President can and likely will use his position to rape, burn and pillage his way through every scrap of Obama Administration paperwork before it is done.
 
Drawdown said:
1) My reading of what Trump asked was for him to look into the firing of the prosecutor. At no point did he say anything about "digging up dirt" nor did he add an "or else".
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But if you're Ukraine and you want the aid the best way to make sure you get that aid is to either find something or make something up. Trump is not going to be happy if you tell him, "Biden is clean. We didn't find anything." He will think you're covering up for him. That's the reality.

Drawdown said:
2) After the hoopla about foreigners interfering in our election, the democrats defending Biden using foreign aid he did not even control to extort interfering in an internal government matter of a foreign government cannot be reconciled except in minds with serious cognitive dissonance.
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You're right he didn't control that aid. It's the state department and the American embasssy in Ukraine who thought of the strategy to make removing Viktor Shokin a condition of getting that aid. Biden bragging like it's all him doesn't help.

Drawdown said:
3) If the Ukranians wanted him fired as you allege, they could have fired him well before Biden inappropriately threatened them.
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He can't be fired by the president. The Parliament has to vote to remove him. There are different faction and other corrupt politicians who were protecting the prosecutor. Feel free to dig deep into the details of Ukranian politics. It's like asking why didn't we just remove Nixon right away. Because of politics.

Drawdown said:
4) Despite your claim that the fired prosecutor was not investigating Biden's son's company when he was fired, I have read multiple reports that indicated otherwise.
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It's just a fact that Viktor Shokin refused to give documents to the UK prosecutors. I wrote a long post about it here..

Trump conspiracy theory about Biden destroyed

Someone else detailed it here...

No, Joe Biden did not pressure Ukraine to save his son

Drawdown said:
5) Lastly, that this was not confined to Biden but reportedly included Obama and others as well is precisely why this whole thing could very well blow back on the democrats. The sitting President can and likely will use his position to rape, burn and pillage his way through every scrap of Obama Administration paperwork before it is done.
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It also invovled the EU, the IMF and Ukranian reformers. Does that even make sense?

All I can do is give you the facts. It's up to you to read the articles and come to your own conclusions.
 
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Craig234 said:
Using aid as pressure is standard political practice. The right and wrong about it has to do with the goals it's used to pressure to get.

It's widely understood that that prosecutor was corrupt. That's a legitimate policy goal.

Using aid to pressure a country to attack an American political opponent is not a legitimate policy goal or use of the power to withhold aid.

Note the consciousness of guilt here. Nothing open about the act - trump lied that he was withholding aid, lied why he was doing so, tried to hide his conversation with Ukraine on the most secret system and limit who could see it, and lied about the reporting about the conversation, calling it 'fake news', before having to release the record of the call showing he'd lied about that.
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Evidently getting rid of a prosecutor that is problem for junior is a good reason and looking into corruption is a bad reason.
 
Mycroft said:
What's worse than an accurate paraphrase? Taking quotes out of context.

From the transcript...







There is only one company that Trump mentioned...and it's not the company that Biden's son was part of. And it's true...nowhere in that conversation did Trump ask Zelenskiy to investigate Biden. (unless, of course, you want to put words into Trump's mouth)
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oooh, be careful, the lefties can't handle the truth ya know....

They might... cry...

Or... waste a whole bunch of our money and lawmakers time on a bunch of false accusations, inuendo, media hype, and senseless diatribes.

-
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Evidently getting rid of a prosecutor that is problem for junior is a good reason and looking into corruption is a bad reason.
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Prove that and you'll have a point. Since you can't, you're a trump puppet.
 
Craig234 said:
Prove that and you'll have a point. Since you can't, you're a trump puppet.
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Sorry but it is a fact that Biden withheld a billion dollars from the Ukraine forcing them to fire their prosecutor. Talk about interfering in another countries government. Oh but just asking a leader to look into such an outrageous act of interfering with another countries government leaders is a crime. WOW.

Biden's sons only qualification for the lucrative job he had was daddies political power to the tune of a billion dollars of our tax money is a very good reason to ask a leader about possible corruption.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Sorry but it is a fact that Biden withheld a billion dollars from the Ukraine forcing them to fire their prosecutor. Talk about interfering in another countries government. Oh but just asking a leader to look into such an outrageous act of interfering with another countries government leaders is a crime. WOW.
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Biden DID push to get rid of the prosecutor, because he was corrupt. You have posted nothing to prove your claim that it was to protect his son from legitimate prosecution. trump obviously was asking for accusations to be 'found' against his political opponent in order to get the military aid he was withholding. Your being blind doesn't change it.
 
Craig234 said:
Biden DID push to get rid of the prosecutor, because he was corrupt. You have posted nothing to prove your claim that it was to protect his son from legitimate prosecution. trump obviously was asking for accusations to be 'found' against his political opponent in order to get the military aid he was withholding. Your being blind doesn't change it.
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I can't. Not even the president can look into corruption by the democrats.
 
Drawdown said:
nor did he add an "or else".
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The real dealing was to be with the attorneys after the call. Trump had suspended $250,000,000 in aid which he only just released. There is no stronger "or else" than that. He said "the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily" The call has a context and it matters.

Drawdown said:
democrats defending Biden using foreign aid he did not even control to extort interfering in an internal government matter
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Problem with that logic is the prosecutor in question was in fact a crook:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/trump-called-this-ex-ukrainian-prosecutor-very-good-but-he-resigned-in-disgrace/2019/09/25/d1410aa2-dfb1-11e9-be7f-4cc85017c36f_story.html

Drawdown said:
3) If the Ukranians wanted him fired as you allege, they could have fired him well before Biden inappropriately threatened them.
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So you believe Trump when he says they need to clean up corruption but no one else? It's called corruption, it's not firing the assistant manager because he was late to work.

Drawdown said:
4) Despite your claim that the fired prosecutor was not investigating Biden's son's company when he was fired, I have read multiple reports that indicated otherwise. ...reportedly included Obama and others as well is precisely why this whole thing could very well blow back on the democrats
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As had Trump! You realize this proves the point this was politically motivated don't you?
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
We got one. He is in trouble for it.
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Somehow Trump hasn't come across as an anti-corruption crusader these past few years. Maybe he had a come to Jesus moment when looking at Ukraine, after taking a course in ethics at Trump University.
 
Nickyjo said:
Somehow Trump hasn't come across as an anti-corruption crusader these past few years. Maybe he had a come to Jesus moment when looking at Ukraine, after taking a course in ethics at Trump University.
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So far the only real crime is fighting back against a witch hunt. Oh and asking a leader of another country to look into corruption. What an idiot. He should have learned when Putin exposed the democrats how they attack to protect corruption.
 
Nickyjo said:
God, help us find a leader who cares about corruption.
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When is he going to investigate Jared Kushner's family getting bailed out with loans from a Qatari linked Canadian firm after being involved in the Qatar blockade?

Any plans to investigate Republicans?
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
So far the only real crime is fighting back against a witch hunt. Oh and asking a leader of another country to look into corruption. What an idiot. He should have learned when Putin exposed the democrats how they attack to protect corruption.
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I believe it is illegal to solicit another country to get involved in US elections. Trump has done this twice, once Russia, then Ukraine. If not illegal, my apologies.
 
Nickyjo said:
I believe it is illegal to solicit another country to get involved in US elections. Trump has done this twice, once Russia, then Ukraine. If not illegal, my apologies.
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No. That fabrication that he colluded with the Russians was never proven. Just because the democrat shout out a lies does not make them the truth. That witch hunt failed to produce a witch. Trump asked the leader to look into corruption by Biden. That is not interfering in an election. That is doing what he campaigned and was elected to do by the people. Drain the Swamp. Putin interfered in the election because he thought it was OK since Hillary did it to him. Hell she tried to start a coup there like the dimocrats are trying to do to our president now. Putin just gave her a taste of her own medicine.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
No. That fabrication that he colluded with the Russians was never proven. Just because the democrat shout out a lies does not make them the truth. That witch hunt failed to produce a witch. Trump asked the leader to look into corruption by Biden. That is not interfering in an election. That is doing what he campaigned and was elected to do by the people. Drain the Swamp. Putin interfered in the election because he thought it was OK since Hillary did it to him. Hell she tried to start a coup there like the dimocrats are trying to do to our president now. Putin just gave her a taste of her own medicine.
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True, Trump did not conspire with the Russians, though he clearly did obstruct justice as Mueller pointed out. He did invite Russia to get involved in our elections. That was wrong. Ditto his actions on Ukraine are wrong if the allegations prove true.

How did Hillary get involved with Putin? She condemned his corruption, as I recall. He is, after all, someone who has ordered killings of dissidents and who invaded Ukraine, something Trump denied happened.

Trump asks a foreign power to get involved in our elections, and to this date he has trouble admitting what our intelligence agencies know about their involvement. When he says he believes Putin's denials, what does that make you think about him? You seem to have problems with Trump's critics but none with the Supreme Leader himself. Do you really think the guy who gave the world the Trump Foundation, Trump U and Trump steaks cares about corruption in Ukraine?
 
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