Capitalism vs Communism, the bigger picture

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

calamity said:

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

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I guess we could all live in mud huts and be dead by 40 from a fever.

calamity said:

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

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Because China is so eco-friendly?

calamity said:

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

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How many natural resources are consumed in order to murder over 100 million people?

Drawdown said:

Because China is so eco-friendly?

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China has a stock market, banned labor unions & has a massive private sector. They obviously aren't a communist country anymore, no matter how misleading their ruling party's name is.

calamity said:

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

Click to expand...

Cuba, China and Venezuela are looking for a few good Centrists - are you there yet?

calamity said:

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

Click to expand...

Yes

Reports of climate change, global warming and greenhouse gas emissions have been all over the news lately. What does this have to do with agriculture? After many decades of being pointed to as a source of environmental issues, field crop agriculture is being looked to as one of the solutions to global climate change. The basis for this environmental remediation affect is corn’s and other crops’ tremendous potential to remove carbon dioxide (CO2), a major greenhouse gas, from the atmosphere. In fact, Michigan growers can now receive payment for storing carbon in the soil via private sector carbon credit trading managed through the Chicago Climate Exchange.

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Eric Holder contempt vote: Holder held in contempt of Congress - POLITICO

Athanasius68 said:

I guess we could all live in mud huts and be dead by 40 from a fever.

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I want you to take your phone out of your pocket right now, and take a second to consider how much complicated technology went into creating it. The touch-sensitive screen, the voice recognition software, the impact-resistant plastic polymers in the case... There isn't a single bit of technology in that phone that was created by someone competing in a free market - it's all government tech, mostly military, and entirely paid for by your tax dollars. You cannot give credit for advances in quality of life and new inventions to a system of investing that only began in the 1500s.

Trump said:

Yes



Eric Holder contempt vote: Holder held in contempt of Congress - POLITICO

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How many times are you going to use this link?

Jesse Booth said:

I want you to take your phone out of your pocket right now, and take a second to consider how much complicated technology went into creating it. The touch-sensitive screen, the voice recognition software, the impact-resistant plastic polymers in the case... There isn't a single bit of technology in that phone that was created by someone competing in a free market - it's all government tech, mostly military, and entirely paid for by your tax dollars. You cannot give credit for advances in quality of life and new inventions to a system of investing that only began in the 1500s.

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Not sure what point you’re trying to make; most advances have their inceptions in government, more specifically military. Advances in medicine, communications, navigation, food storage and many others that escape me at this moment.

Rexedgar said:

Not sure what point you’re trying to make; most advances have their inceptions in government, more specifically military. Advances in medicine, communications, navigation, food storage and many others that escape me at this moment.

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The point is that it's ridiculous for him to credit capitalism with us advancing past mud huts. Especially in light of how young capitalism really is as a system of economic organization.

Of course pure capitalism is a flop, it's why we regulate it and as new markets are created, we have to wait to see how they will fail us, and then hope we can regulate it decades after the damage is caused. Look at social media...took 100% of American's privacy, and no one cares...we'll have to wait and have it blow up before we get mad and fix it. It's how we roll.

Our primary problem seems to be money in politics, assuming that money in politics also helped create right wing mainstream news and the success of right wing propaganda being actually believed by some 30-40% of the population. If not the root cause, then both are the two big root issues.

Capitalism favors the few capitalists who gain most of the economic power. Having them also use that to shape government (regulations and laws that check their power), are what Republicans enable, to everyone else's detriment.
If laborers, as part of a capitalist economy, defeated that (they have the numbers), and helped ensure wealth/corporations don't have such a large control over government, the system would run much more smoothly, and we'd not have so much partisan nonsense to worry about. Note, this would have almost no effect on most businesses and entrepreneurs(!), it would primarily affect money in politics, and the wealthiest corporations..not joe bob's gun repair.

As to capitalism = locusts, I hate to be the one to tell you that's currently *human nature* at work, not capitalism. Or if anything, a result of liberty, the right to reproduce.
Japan's about to be the big global test case for what happens when population growth slows significantly, we are all waiting to see. But I don't think it will be too surprising.

Right now we leverage increases in population to drive economic growth across the board (including SS payments, which ultimately come from market activity too). When that balance shifts, and we are no longer "borrowing on a larger future population", something will occur, no doubt.

Jesse Booth said:

The point is that it's ridiculous for him to credit capitalism with us advancing past mud huts. Especially in light of how young capitalism really is as a system of economic organization.

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The US has put “capitalism” on steroids.

As an aside, what era do you credit with capitalism? The earliest explorers were establishing trade. Something that had more appeal was worth more than goods with less appeal.

I think every time communism is mentioned related to US politics, we should mentions something else that doesn't exist, like Martian economics.

It's insane that while effectively no one supports communism for America, it has such a dominant role in the discussion of policy - as a slur and straw man. In other words, it serves no purpose but to prevent honest discussion. So if anyone tries to raise it, answer demanding that they address Martian economics, too. Or some other obscure economic idea unrelated to American economics.

The real divide is between "Democratic Capitalism" and "Plutocrat Capitalism".

And that actual difference is rarely discussed. And so we get gibberish about 'communism versus capitalism' that results in idiocy, instead of discussing the real issues regarding things like distribution of wealth, the right of the people to protect their interests, the balance of power between workers and owners, etc.

Rexedgar said:

The US has put “capitalism” on steroids.

As an aside, what era do you credit with capitalism? The earliest explorers were establishing trade. Something that had more appeal was worth more than goods with less appeal.

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Hard to say. I personally consider the firsts stock exchange market to be the marking point for when capitalism begins, but there's evidence dating back to pre-Christian Rome of businesses owned by multiple stock holders. Stock markets are the real issue that has set the norm of speculative bubbles and market crashes that we experience to this very day.

There's a video by one of my favorite YouTubers that goes into an unnecessarily extended metaphor about the US economy. It won't tell you anything you don't already know, but it's an entertaining use of ten minutes if you like my usual banter.

Drawdown said:

Because China is so eco-friendly?

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China is not communist. It's no longer 1970.

Mach said:

Of course pure capitalism is a flop, it's why we regulate it and as new markets are created, we have to wait to see how they will fail us, and then hope we can regulate it decades after the damage is caused. Look at social media...took 100% of American's privacy, and no one cares...we'll have to wait and have it blow up before we get mad and fix it. It's how we roll.

Our primary problem seems to be money in politics, assuming that money in politics also helped create right wing mainstream news and the success of right wing propaganda being actually believed by some 30-40% of the population. If not the root cause, then both are the two big root issues.

Capitalism favors the few capitalists who gain most of the economic power. Having them also use that to shape government (regulations and laws that check their power), are what Republicans enable, to everyone else's detriment.
If laborers, as part of a capitalist economy, defeated that (they have the numbers), and helped ensure wealth/corporations don't have such a large control over government, the system would run much more smoothly, and we'd not have so much partisan nonsense to worry about. Note, this would have almost no effect on most businesses and entrepreneurs(!), it would primarily affect money in politics, and the wealthiest corporations..not joe bob's gun repair.

As to capitalism = locusts, I hate to be the one to tell you that's currently *human nature* at work, not capitalism. Or if anything, a result of liberty, the right to reproduce.
Japan's about to be the big global test case for what happens when population growth slows significantly, we are all waiting to see. But I don't think it will be too surprising.

Right now we leverage increases in population to drive economic growth across the board (including SS payments, which ultimately come from market activity too). When that balance shifts, and we are no longer "borrowing on a larger future population", something will occur, no doubt.

Click to expand...

Capitalism thrives on the unleashing of human nature; specifically greed and gluttony.

calamity said:

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

Click to expand...

Capitalism and Communism both are not inherently for or against climate science, not inherently for or against principles of religion, and not inherently for or against "humanity."

They are both just systems of economics and/or governance.

calamity said:

China is not communist. It's no longer 1970.

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Ask the folks in Hong Kong what they think about that....the ones not disappeared to re-education camps yet.

calamity said:

Yeah, I get it. Communism means you drive a 1950's car into the 2000's and rarely have gas to keep it on the road. Breadlines and clothes that all look the same are your daily reality.

But...what about this always consuming thing we call Capitalism? Is devouring the earth like locusts really a better system?

Yeah, you can buy a new car, fridge, and entire wardrobe whenever you want. And, the grocery store has 100 different brands of cookies and cereal to choose from. Is having an entire aisle-way dedicated to flavors of coffee really the apex of the "lord's plan"?

Does capitalism really help humanity more forward? I'm beginning to suspect not.

Click to expand...

You might take a look at the societies inside communist countries along with the economics. Stalin was having a bad year with the economy so he starved 20 million people to death. Mao was struggling with the same thing and killed upwards to 60 million Chinese. The same with most other countries you will find the people are treated horribly. Especially if you are of the wrong religion, color of skin or sexual orientation. You have no human rights as well in communist countries. The dictatorship decides what you can do with your life. How many children you can have and what sex of those children as what happened in China. The length of life is important but the quality of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is by far more important.

Let's look at how communist countries deal with pollution and climate change. They don't. They pollute. 90% of the garbage in the oceans is from China, Russia, India and other communist and dictatorships overseas. The biggest polluters for your climate change crap are communist countries. The United States is by far the best country. Maybe there are others with nuclear energy that are good as well. But, capitalism has created methods to deal with much of the pollution we once had. Free market approaches spawn innovation in these areas. Not Government as we saw with Solyndra and the Obama fiasco.

The United States capitalism and free markets has pulled more people out of poverty around the entire world than any other economic system. You want to see starvation and diseases the way it used to be around the world? That will happen if the United States capitalism and Constitution fall because of egg headed moronic idiot communists/socialists as Lenin said get power. Lenin said if Russia could convince the useful idiots in the United States (specifically the socialist progressives of the Democrat Party) to give up their capitalism and free markets. Do you still think communism is a good thing? Or maybe capitalism with a few controls to stop crony capitalism in which the Democrats are also involved with.

Athanasius68 said:

I guess we could all live in mud huts and be dead by 40 from a fever.

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I wonder if calamity is a millennial? The young people have very little knowledge of the brutality of socialism and communism.

Jesse Booth said:

China has a stock market, banned labor unions & has a massive private sector. They obviously aren't a communist country anymore, no matter how misleading their ruling party's name is.

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It's true that in order to stop their demise, they had to go to a crony capitalist system and let their people own more of what they earn. However, while they have changed that part of their economic system, the rest of it is still socialism. And, they still are controlled by a dictatorship who has killed many in their own country for free thought. In China, you still can't express your rights to free speech without being jailed or killed. China wants to also spread their communism around the world and are doing so as we speak. To say they aren't communist is simply ignoring the facts.

Rexedgar said:

How many times are you going to use this link?

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as often as appropriate :2wave:

Jesse Booth said:

I want you to take your phone out of your pocket right now, and take a second to consider how much complicated technology went into creating it. The touch-sensitive screen, the voice recognition software, the impact-resistant plastic polymers in the case... There isn't a single bit of technology in that phone that was created by someone competing in a free market - it's all government tech, mostly military, and entirely paid for by your tax dollars. You cannot give credit for advances in quality of life and new inventions to a system of investing that only began in the 1500s.

Click to expand...

Which in turn was generated by the creation of wealth.

Athanasius68 said:

Which in turn was generated by the creation of wealth.

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Which was and still would be generated, independent of a very specific economic system that requires constant fractional banking to barely stave off a complete system crash after centuries of speculation exceeding actual wealth.

Edit: autocorrect does weird things when you miss a few letters.