Goodbye America?

Captain Adverse said:

Our nation was not "built on slavery.

It is a good thing that we strive to overcome the "evils" inherent in our basic natures, and learn from our mistakes. But IMO it is a bad thing to constantly wallow in them seeking "privileges and special treatment" instead of learning from them and moving on with pride in our ability to adapt and improve on the past.

IMO we should embrace the past, learn from our mistakes while still resting our faith and pride on the foundational ideals posited by those people of vision which led us to the be the "greatest experiment in government" to date in history. Otherwise, we will simply fail and end up like every other great nation, rotted from the inside out, and replaced by a new "barbaric" culture.

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The economic underpinnings of the entire country at its birth was based on Slavery. Both the Northern Banks and Northern trade houses interfacing with European mills and the Southern Plantations were completely dependent on slavery. The single asset category of highest value in the early United States was.......SLAVES and its not even close. Wasn't land. Wasn't gold.....it was SLAVES.

The Constitutional Congress would have FAILED without concessions made to the slave states which was something of a magic act on its own merits. You cannot recognize the aspirational aspects of both the Declaration and the Constitution and then ignore particular aspects of those aspirations. You can say that racial biases are steeped in tribalism. But unfortunately in this country White Supremacy was fundamental to the country at its founding. So the best you can say is that while it might be possible that tribalism is at the root of our racial issues, we will never be able to discover to what degree because White Supremacy in the form of Slavery was the rule of the day at our founding, for 180 years before it and for 100 years after it.

When you have a country that is "wallowing" in White Supremacy and Slavery, it is difficult to point at that little gob of goo that might be tribalism and claim THAT to be the root of our racial issues in this country. Tribalism is lost in a rounding error.

You want to embrace the past. You have to acknowledge it first. I don't see acknowledgement in your post.

Traditionally our perspective in this country was very similar to the perspective of Old Saxony. For Saxons the entire premise for the shape of the world they determined that they "deserved" was that they were willing to wage war for it. Had nothing to do with whether there was any ethical or moral imperative attached to their perspective. The simple fact that they were willing to wage war gave them all the rational they needed TO WAGE WAR and led to what I refer to as the Convenient Imperialism that the Saxons used to premise their efforts to achieve their goals across the borders of their immediate neighbors. The Kaiser and his Convenient Imperialism was the driving force, the very heartbeat of the origins of WW1.

In our case, we were willing to enslave because we could and because it gave us an economic basis that in a mainly agricultural society was very powerful and became an imperative. Committing genocide on Native Americans was the same sort of imperative. The only difference between the fact of waging war as its own rational and cultural imperative in Germany before WW1 and the American Anglo-Saxon White Supremacy as its own rational and imperative for White Supremacy is that Germany had all that crap kicked out if by the end of WW2. They were splayed out....crushed for their nonsense, utterly and completely defeated and destitute for it.

Here in the US, the non-slave states and most particularly those of the Northeast never really admitted their complicity in Slavery instead choosing to pat itself on the back for its intellect and the South while pulverized by the fact of the Civil War having been fought on its ground escaped real reparations because Reconstruction failed. Failed Reconstruction institutionalized apartheid in this country literally up through the 1980's only 40 years ago! 360 years of combined slavery and apartheid v 40 years of recovery. No wonder were are not there yet.

Denying the huge economic benefit of Slavery for this country is simple avoidance of the truth. Acknowledging it is not concentrating on the bad and ignoring the good of this country. It is the truth of this country. Avoidance of the truth of this country is what allows the unscrupulous to continue to sow fear of loss and ultimately distain for non-whites at a level that is frankly more than just alarming for 2019.

Luther said:

What do ya think?

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Well it is a very good example of how to make a propaganda film aimed at a certain audience. The colors blue and red were used effectively to make kind of a subliminal message. Clearly the people behind this video want us to hate progressives. Another clear aspect of the video is that the people who made it are not only Republicans, but the religious right. All in all its one faction attacking another faction. Regardless of whatever wrongs progressives engage in, the video itself is just as bad if not worse than how it portrays progressives.

aociswundumho said:

The country really needs to split up. Progressivism is incompatible with individual rights and American ideals. Eventually they're going to weasel their way into power and turn the country into a leftist s***hole, just like they have everywhere else.

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Understanding and learning history isn't a left/right issue nor it is "Progressivism"

Learning and understanding more of the country's past is not incompatible with individual rights and American Ideals... it is a path to understanding them and appreciating them more.

COTO said:

Agreed.

@Jezcoe: You have a valid point in that emphasis on virtues versus faults isn't inherently binary, but we're increasingly seeing that this is the case in practice. In particular, the progressive ethos is becoming more and more hostile (and I use the term "hostile" rightly here) to the idea that America is and was a great nation. This hostility goes far beyond a sober-minded desire to reflect on the sins of the past.

I don't know to what extent Mr. Robbins' statement about the progressive narrative being the prevailing narrative in US schools is true, but anyone who's been on a debate forum like this one for more than 5 minutes, or who's watched some of the recent political debates, knows exactly what he's talking about.

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America is a great nation.

It is also a nation with a past. Not all of it good.

Understanding and learning about that past without the tint of rose colored glasses shows what the nation has done right so we can continue to do that and what the nation has done wrong so we can strive to not make those mistakes again.

Jezcoe said:

Learning and understanding more of the country's past is not incompatible with individual rights and American Ideals.

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I didn't say it was, I said progressivism was. The only reason any leftist cares about American history it to use it for political gain. For example, progressives luv to bring up slavery in order to push for the idiotic idea of reparations.

aociswundumho said:

I didn't say it was, I said progressivism was. The only reason any leftist cares about American history it to use it for political gain. For example, progressives luv to bring up slavery in order to push for the idiotic idea of reparations.

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You are painting with such a broad brush that I cannot even relegate your post to opinion. Rather looks more like propaganda.

Reparations have not been seriously discussed in this country since soon after the end of the Civil War. The current discussions in the House of Representatives have been about "having a discussion" about Reparations, not about Reparations themselves. There is no process aiming at actual Reparations at this point.

In my case, I struggle with there even being a rational framework for actual Reparations. So I am skeptical. However, I have no issue with having the discussion about Reparations in the House or in Committee.

jnug said:

Reparations have not been seriously discussed in this country since soon after the end of the Civil War.

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They are being seriously discussed by many "progressive" candidates:

Warren supports reparations.

Beto supports reparations.

As does Booker and Harris, and probably others as well.

In my case, I struggle with there even being a rational framework for actual Reparations.

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Rational framework? You're talking about taking money from people who never owned slaves and giving it to people who never were slaves, so please, leave the word "rational" out of it.

I refuse pessimism. Administrations, past deeds, past rights and wrongs, we have overcome so much, we progressed, some positive, some negatively viewed, depending on who does the looking.
Looking back to the day when returning soldiers were spit on, the war protests, the unrests, the hysteria about communism. Replace a few terms, and we are back where we once were. Most importantly, we are still standing. Despite the negativity and hatred portrayed on TV and social media, we get along well on daily basis, but all we hear and read about is the bad and the ugly.
Racism, now that is a red flag for so many. So is religion. No, not organized religion and maga churches, but simply faith in our Lord and Savior.
Matthew 5:1-12
1 Corinthians 13:13
Matthew 25:37-42
Matthew 12:48-50
No racism, just people.

aociswundumho said:

They are being seriously discussed by many "progressive" candidates:

Warren supports reparations.

Beto supports reparations.

As does Booker and Harris, and probably others as well.




Rational framework? You're talking about taking money from people who never owned slaves and giving it to people who never were slaves, so please, leave the word "rational" out of it.

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When it gets beyond the discussion of the discussion stage in Congress, wake me up.

Then again if the Trump model of a Presidency is followed by future Presidents we will no longer be electing Chief Executives. We will be electing dictators that simply rule by fiat 100% of the time. At that point what candidates say about the subject might be interesting.

Governing will be out the window as it is in this Administration and with this Chief Executive.

VySky said:

Six years ago in 2013 I contributed to a Blog for gun owners. One on my contributions is titled 'Why I'm Losing Hope and the other 'The Decay of Society'. Unarguably, we continued spiraling down the path without detour. I'll leave one of them here.

Not sure if forum rules allow me to provide a link, so I'll await clarification.. Being new, I don't want to get tossed as it appears my point of view(s) are in the minority, which inspires me to continue making my voice heard.

-VySky

Why I'm Losing Hope

Because I was raised to love God & Country. My grandparents were hard working tobacco farmers for all their lives. They never ventured far from their home in Tennessee. During my youth, I spent my summers there working in the hot August fields and in the top of some bat and spider infested barns. But you know what? It felt like Utopia. The family would gather on Sundays for dinner (lunch down south) then retire to the vast fields for games of baseball until the lighting bugs blinked at sunset. America was a different place then. It was a place were a man was judged by the sweat off his brow and how he provided for his family. As grandma used to say; "I don't care if you dig a ditch for a living, just dig it to the best of your ability". They were true Americans who taught me the value and pride which comes from a hard days work.

I have tried to pass the culture to my son's. And to some extent, it is still a work in progress. It's just hard for them to see the forest through the trees. Some today get more fired up about a new release of the Ipad than it does at the prospects of employment. Sad

What would my grandparents think today of the America that turned it's back on their values? I picture the Indian with a tear in his eye (viewing litter) from the commercial years ago. The difference today is he would be reduced to a mere man on his knees viewing the cesspool society has manifested and nurtured.

The election was a referendum on the American Dream as my generation knew it. The shear fact that a little over half of us (America collectively) voted for the continued weakening of our National Sovernity is hard to stomach.

I can only hope the reason immigrants flock to America is because of the image it used to reflect, not the image of today. But as the subj: reads, I am on the slippery slope called hope and am growing more bitter by the day.

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All opinion and no substance. Things aren't always what they seem and your perspective isn't the only one. Iron Eyes Cody was Italian. LOL!

jnug said:

We will be electing dictators that simply rule by fiat 100% of the time.

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Any kind of government is rule by fiat 100% of the time. Makes no difference whether it's one man or a thousand.

aociswundumho said:

Any kind of government is rule by fiat 100% of the time. Makes no difference whether it's one man or a thousand.

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Wrong:
Definition of fiat. 1 : a command or act of will that creates something without or as if without further effort According to the Bible, the world was created by fiat. 2 : an authoritative determination : dictate a fiat of conscience. 3 : an authoritative or arbitrary order : decree government by fiat

Now if you were in a coma before Trump became President and came out of it in January 2016, you might be inclined to YOUR definition of rule by fiat as it relates to governance in this country.

aociswundumho said:

I didn't say it was, I said progressivism was. The only reason any leftist cares about American history it to use it for political gain. For example, progressives luv to bring up slavery in order to push for the idiotic idea of reparations.

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The idea that mining history is the exclusive province of any one ideological group is utterly ludicrous. Right-wingers routinely twist the historical record for their own purposes, as have many others throughout history. That's just what people do.

For example, your own claim that "progressivism is incompatible with individual rights and American ideals" is a classic example of a self-serving right-wing view that is flat-out wrong. Leftists were instrumental in the civil rights movement, whose advocates often emphasized issues of income inequality and poverty (e.g. MLK Jr). It was the left that pushed back against obscenity laws, and the attempts to establish state religions. It was left-leaning pragmatists who established incredibly popular programs like Social Security and Medicare. Leftists generally believe that central governments needed to be strong, just like Washington and Hamilton. And while the contemporary left-right division doesn't quite fit, surely today's leftists agree with Teddy Roosevelt's trust-busting and dedication to national parks.

To put it another way: The left is under no obligation whatsoever to cede the concept of rights, or American history, to the right. Hard nope on that.

Luther said:

What do ya think?

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A lot packed into 4:45 but in general, pretty good. His points on recognizing that having some imperfections is not the same as being a failure is spot on.

Jezcoe said:

The video offers a false choice.

Is America to be remembered as being built by slavery or for overcoming and abolishing it at the cost of many lives? It is both.

Is America to be remembered as a place of rampant discrimination or a place of accepting people in active pursuit of a more perfect union? It is both.

Is America a country of grinding exploitation or a place of limitless opportunity? It is both

So this either/or binary and saying that one has to "choose" is nonsense and divorced from history.

And I give the video extra points for squeezing the "War on Christmas" in there.
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I think he was hinting at that duality. I didn't see an either/or choice. He acknowledge the negative but pointed out there were mitigating positives as well.

Captain Adverse said:

No, IMO it is not a false choice.

The phrase "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" is apropos of our current social ills. Throughout history great nations have risen and fallen based on the faith and loyalty of the citizens to the ideals and foundational belief systems which created those nations in the first place. As soon as people lose that faith and loyalty, the decline and fall becomes inevitable.

Our nation was not "built on slavery." Slavery existed, and that was a bad thing, but it was not universally accepted else there would never have been a "war between North and South." Racism existed, and still does throughout the world. But that is part of our inherent tribalistic nature. A nature one sees exhibited by our lesser primate cousins in the wild, living within a few miles of each other as they battle over territory and for resources and breeding rights.

It is a good thing that we strive to overcome the "evils" inherent in our basic natures, and learn from our mistakes. But IMO it is a bad thing to constantly wallow in them seeking "privileges and special treatment" instead of learning from them and moving on with pride in our ability to adapt and improve on the past.

That is the problem with your response. We are not accepting the "binary" you assert. We are denigrating the "good," highlighting the "evil," and seeking a complete dissolution of the old in favor of some idealistic and unrealistic "vision" of a new utopia. That is the dystopian view that has always led to decadence and the downfall of just about every past society in history.

IMO we should embrace the past, learn from our mistakes while still resting our faith and pride on the foundational ideals posited by those people of vision which led us to the be the "greatest experiment in government" to date in history. Otherwise, we will simply fail and end up like every other great nation, rotted from the inside out, and replaced by a new "barbaric" culture.

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand." We see that in our current ideological divide, how viciously so many abhor our past achievements in pursuit of the new socialist dialectic. Seeking "one-party rule" to force changes "now" rather than respect how our current system has actually worked to allow for a natural change toward realization of the ideals espoused by those men and women who founded this nation.

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The concept that the country was "build on slavery" is vapid, at best. As he pointed out we fought a war less than a hundred years after founding to eradicate slavery. And from founding the prevailing national mood was to contain and abolish slavery.

aociswundumho said:

The country really needs to split up. Progressivism is incompatible with individual rights and American ideals. Eventually they're going to weasel their way into power and turn the country into a leftist s***hole, just like they have everywhere else.

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I find your position laughably naive. It wasn't liberalism that took the individual rights from African slaves, it was conservative religion. Or, were you referring to the individual rights of rich people to enjoy a class system they created in contrast to the founding document.

Furthermore, the "leftist ****hole" is an absurd bit of magical thinking, compare the leftist ****hole, Denmark to the conservative paradise, Saudi Arabia, and you'll see how dumb your post is.

Oh, how the conservatives wail and gnash their teeth at the thought of change. How they fear the future, and I'm not just talking about their christian end times fantasy. Their fears may be justified, as a future where greed and religious oppression remain "normal" conservative values are unimaginable to so many young people. Change is a ceaseless march toward what I hope is a better future where paranoid, invective-laden garbage like you wrote is mocked for what it is.

I am comfortable with the end of America as long as something better emerges from its transformative introspection. The only scenario I find unthinkable is to continue allowing brain damaged, conservative, anachronisms to stymie progress at every turn, in reverence to a past that existed, too long, as a contradiction to a moral, human future.

Captain Adverse said:

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand." We see that in our current ideological divide, how viciously so many abhor our past achievements in pursuit of the new socialist dialectic. Seeking "one-party rule" to force changes "now" rather than respect how our current system has actually worked to allow for a natural change toward realization of the ideals espoused by those men and women who founded this nation.

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Imagine a group of citizens in a country complaining that government security forces are abusing their authority. Now imagine these citizens being ignored by another group of citizens. That's a nation divided.

Imagine telling naturalized citizens to go back where they came from. That's a nation divided.

There is no socialist takeover coming. But we may become like *gasp* Canada. And the more you insist that universal health care is socialism, the more people will believe you and embrace socialism.

Bullseye said:

The concept that the country was "build on slavery" is vapid, at best. As he pointed out we fought a war less than a hundred years after founding to eradicate slavery. And from founding the prevailing national mood was to contain and abolish slavery.

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Why do you think the colonialists brought slaves to every colony?

Let's go over how this works. The colonies were big business. You had huge companies like the Dutch East India company that were wealthier than entire nations. And slaves working plantation to bring spice, sugar, cotton and other commodities were an essential part of this business. So, it is fair to say that all colonies, including America, were built upon slavery.

Bullseye said:

The concept that the country was "build on slavery" is vapid, at best. As he pointed out we fought a war less than a hundred years after founding to eradicate slavery. And from founding the prevailing national mood was to contain and abolish slavery.

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Which does not change the fact that the economic underpinnings of the country were based on slavery which is why accommodations were made at the Constitutional Convention to keep the major slave holding states on board. Without them, this thing we call the United States did not work. The Founders knew it. We know it. We would have been little clusters of states all with many land borders (see Europe for examples of that sort of mess).

The "prevailing national mood" was to abolish slavery. Thats rich. What the hell is that.

There were forces at play that had ethical and moral issues with Slavery. That and a dime might get you a cup of coffee. One man with power and vision identified the political and governmental necessity of abolishing slavery, not the moral or ethical efficacy of abolition but the political and governmental necessity of abolition as the chance we could go forward facing out to a world stage while carrying with us such a glaring hypocrisy in our backpacks was not within the realm of possibility. We may not have failed, but we would not have grown.

The chance that the Old World would have depended on the New World to save the entire world TWICE before the middle of the 20th Century would have been ZERO for example and the New World Order from which the United States prospered mightily would never have happened.

If you want to call Lincoln an early globalist you would not be far wrong.

Hari Seldon said:

All opinion and no substance. Things aren't always what they seem and your perspective isn't the only one. Iron Eyes Cody was Italian. LOL!

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I can assure you there are more facts in the text than opinion.

-VySky

VySky said:

I can assure you there are more facts in the text than opinion.

-VySky

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There were NO facts in your post. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it was.

Hari Seldon said:

There were NO facts in your post. Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion but that is all it was.

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Ok, I'll play


Here's two

- My grandparents were tobacco farmers- FACT
- They never ventured far from their home- FACT

Unlike Biden truth over fact discussion, you do understand the difference between facts and opinion right? I'm a little skeptical

-VySky

Luther said:

What do ya think?

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the video was hilarious, it was completely hypocritical and part of the same problem it was crying about

while theres an HONEST message buried deep in there about understanding history, focus on good along with bad etc the total nonsensical, dishonest, exaggeration, vitctiumcard playing and blame game totally takes any validity out of it and it just becomes funny irony with false choices

TheParser said:

Only our great-grandchildren will know who was right.

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This is the point I like to make. This fight is largely between an older generation(baby boomers) and their children and grand children, but it is exclusively the children and grandchildren that will suffer if we get things wrong. If baby boomers destroy our future they will not live long enough to apologize to us for what they did to us. If the younger generation is wrong they will live long enough to wish they had listen to their parents.

Since it is the younger generation who will be stuck with the results of whatever choices we make today it is only right that they be allowed to make those choices.