Goodbye America?

What do ya think?

The video offers a false choice.

Is America to be remembered as being built by slavery or for overcoming and abolishing it at the cost of many lives? It is both.

Is America to be remembered as a place of rampant discrimination or a place of accepting people in active pursuit of a more perfect union? It is both.

Is America a country of grinding exploitation or a place of limitless opportunity? It is both

So this either/or binary and saying that one has to "choose" is nonsense and divorced from history.

And I give the video extra points for squeezing the "War on Christmas" in there.
.

Jezcoe said:

The video offers a false choice.

Is America to be remembered as being built by slavery or for overcoming and abolishing it at the cost of many lives? It is both.

Is America to be remembered as a place of rampant discrimination or a place of accepting people in active pursuit of a more perfect union? It is both.

Is America a country of grinding exploitation or a place of limitless opportunity? It is both

So this either/or binary and saying that one has to "choose" is nonsense and divorced from history.

And I give the video extra points for squeezing the "War on Christmas" in there.
.

Click to expand...

No, IMO it is not a false choice.

The phrase "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" is apropos of our current social ills. Throughout history great nations have risen and fallen based on the faith and loyalty of the citizens to the ideals and foundational belief systems which created those nations in the first place. As soon as people lose that faith and loyalty, the decline and fall becomes inevitable.

Our nation was not "built on slavery." Slavery existed, and that was a bad thing, but it was not universally accepted else there would never have been a "war between North and South." Racism existed, and still does throughout the world. But that is part of our inherent tribalistic nature. A nature one sees exhibited by our lesser primate cousins in the wild, living within a few miles of each other as they battle over territory and for resources and breeding rights.

It is a good thing that we strive to overcome the "evils" inherent in our basic natures, and learn from our mistakes. But IMO it is a bad thing to constantly wallow in them seeking "privileges and special treatment" instead of learning from them and moving on with pride in our ability to adapt and improve on the past.

That is the problem with your response. We are not accepting the "binary" you assert. We are denigrating the "good," highlighting the "evil," and seeking a complete dissolution of the old in favor of some idealistic and unrealistic "vision" of a new utopia. That is the dystopian view that has always led to decadence and the downfall of just about every past society in history.

IMO we should embrace the past, learn from our mistakes while still resting our faith and pride on the foundational ideals posited by those people of vision which led us to the be the "greatest experiment in government" to date in history. Otherwise, we will simply fail and end up like every other great nation, rotted from the inside out, and replaced by a new "barbaric" culture.

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand." We see that in our current ideological divide, how viciously so many abhor our past achievements in pursuit of the new socialist dialectic. Seeking "one-party rule" to force changes "now" rather than respect how our current system has actually worked to allow for a natural change toward realization of the ideals espoused by those men and women who founded this nation.

Yes, goodbye to America as we currently know it.

Some people are eagerly looking to its disappearance.

They sincerely think that the United States will be a much better place once a certain group of people leave the scene.

Others respectfully disagree with this cheerful prognostication.

Only our great-grandchildren will know who was right. (Although I am pretty confident that I know who is right.)

Captain Adverse said:

No, IMO it is not a false choice.

The phrase "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" is apropos of our current social ills. Throughout history great nations have risen and fallen based on the faith and loyalty of the citizens to the ideals and foundational belief systems which created those nations in the first place. As soon as people lose that faith and loyalty, the decline and fall becomes inevitable.

Our nation was not "built on slavery." Slavery existed, and that was a bad thing, but it was not universally accepted else there would never have been a "war between North and South." Racism existed, and still does throughout the world. But that is part of our inherent tribalistic nature. A nature one sees exhibited by our lesser primate cousins around the world living within a few miles of each other as they battle over territory and for resources and breeding rights.

It is a good thing that we strive to overcome the "evils" inherent in our basic natures, and learn from our mistakes. But IMO it is a bad thing to constantly wallow in them seeking "privileges and special treatment" instead of learning from them and moving on with pride in our ability to adapt and improve on the past.

That is the problem with your response. We are not accepting the "binary" you assert. We are denigrating the "good," highlighting the "evil," and seeking a complete dissolution of the old in favor of some idealistic and unrealistic "vision" of a new utopia. That is the dystopian view that has always led to decadence and the downfall of just about every past society in history.

IMO we should embrace the past, learn from our mistakes while still resting our faith and pride on the foundational ideals posited by those people of vision which led us to the be the "greatest experiment in government" to date in history. Otherwise, we will simply fail and end up like every other great nation, rotted from the inside out, and replaced by a new "barbaric" culture.

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand."

Click to expand...

I am not asserting that there be a binary. The whole of American History should be understood. The good and the bad.

One shouldn't ignore the bad stuff. And there is a lot of bad stuff. But we should also celebrate the change that has been made to overcome the injustices of the past.

Because if you don't know history, you are doomed to repeat it. The good and the bad.

The country really needs to split up. Progressivism is incompatible with individual rights and American ideals. Eventually they're going to weasel their way into power and turn the country into a leftist s***hole, just like they have everywhere else.

Captain Adverse said:

No, IMO it is not a false choice. ...

Click to expand...

Agreed.

@Jezcoe: You have a valid point in that emphasis on virtues versus faults isn't inherently binary, but we're increasingly seeing that this is the case in practice. In particular, the progressive ethos is becoming more and more hostile (and I use the term "hostile" rightly here) to the idea that America is and was a great nation. This hostility goes far beyond a sober-minded desire to reflect on the sins of the past.

I don't know to what extent Mr. Robbins' statement about the progressive narrative being the prevailing narrative in US schools is true, but anyone who's been on a debate forum like this one for more than 5 minutes, or who's watched some of the recent political debates, knows exactly what he's talking about.

aociswundumho said:

The country really needs to split up.

Click to expand...

A peaceful and harmonious divorce may, indeed, be in the cards sometime this century or the next century.

Everyone should have the right to live in a country where everyone feels comfortable and safe.

As I understand it, history shows us that nations come and go. No big deal.

There is no reason to believe that the current United States of America is exceptional.

Six years ago in 2013 I contributed to a Blog for gun owners. One on my contributions is titled 'Why I'm Losing Hope and the other 'The Decay of Society'. Unarguably, we continued spiraling down the path without detour. I'll leave one of them here.

Not sure if forum rules allow me to provide a link, so I'll await clarification.. Being new, I don't want to get tossed as it appears my point of view(s) are in the minority, which inspires me to continue making my voice heard.

-VySky

Why I'm Losing Hope

Because I was raised to love God & Country. My grandparents were hard working tobacco farmers for all their lives. They never ventured far from their home in Tennessee. During my youth, I spent my summers there working in the hot August fields and in the top of some bat and spider infested barns. But you know what? It felt like Utopia. The family would gather on Sundays for dinner (lunch down south) then retire to the vast fields for games of baseball until the lighting bugs blinked at sunset. America was a different place then. It was a place were a man was judged by the sweat off his brow and how he provided for his family. As grandma used to say; "I don't care if you dig a ditch for a living, just dig it to the best of your ability". They were true Americans who taught me the value and pride which comes from a hard days work.

I have tried to pass the culture to my son's. And to some extent, it is still a work in progress. It's just hard for them to see the forest through the trees. Some today get more fired up about a new release of the Ipad than it does at the prospects of employment. Sad

What would my grandparents think today of the America that turned it's back on their values? I picture the Indian with a tear in his eye (viewing litter) from the commercial years ago. The difference today is he would be reduced to a mere man on his knees viewing the cesspool society has manifested and nurtured.

The election was a referendum on the American Dream as my generation knew it. The shear fact that a little over half of us (America collectively) voted for the continued weakening of our National Sovernity is hard to stomach.

I can only hope the reason immigrants flock to America is because of the image it used to reflect, not the image of today. But as the subj: reads, I am on the slippery slope called hope and am growing more bitter by the day.

We will say goodbye, America when a McJob plus "safety net" assistance creates a right to a middle class lifestyle. It begins by having a K-12 public education system where aging one year qualifies each 'student' to advance to the next grade level, self-control (discipline?) and academic achievement are no longer required since that results in disparate impact and America basically adopts the Special Olympics model of rewarding participation.

Captain Adverse said:

No, IMO it is not a false choice.

The phrase "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" is apropos of our current social ills. Throughout history great nations have risen and fallen based on the faith and loyalty of the citizens to the ideals and foundational belief systems which created those nations in the first place. As soon as people lose that faith and loyalty, the decline and fall becomes inevitable.

Our nation was not "built on slavery." Slavery existed, and that was a bad thing, but it was not universally accepted else there would never have been a "war between North and South." Racism existed, and still does throughout the world. But that is part of our inherent tribalistic nature. A nature one sees exhibited by our lesser primate cousins in the wild, living within a few miles of each other as they battle over territory and for resources and breeding rights.

It is a good thing that we strive to overcome the "evils" inherent in our basic natures, and learn from our mistakes. But IMO it is a bad thing to constantly wallow in them seeking "privileges and special treatment" instead of learning from them and moving on with pride in our ability to adapt and improve on the past.

That is the problem with your response. We are not accepting the "binary" you assert. We are denigrating the "good," highlighting the "evil," and seeking a complete dissolution of the old in favor of some idealistic and unrealistic "vision" of a new utopia. That is the dystopian view that has always led to decadence and the downfall of just about every past society in history.

IMO we should embrace the past, learn from our mistakes while still resting our faith and pride on the foundational ideals posited by those people of vision which led us to the be the "greatest experiment in government" to date in history. Otherwise, we will simply fail and end up like every other great nation, rotted from the inside out, and replaced by a new "barbaric" culture.

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand." We see that in our current ideological divide, how viciously so many abhor our past achievements in pursuit of the new socialist dialectic. Seeking "one-party rule" to force changes "now" rather than respect how our current system has actually worked to allow for a natural change toward realization of the ideals espoused by those men and women who founded this nation.

Click to expand...

I wonder which number is greater, the number of those who abhor our past achievements, or the number of those who conceal our past crimes?

Total ignorant idiocy. No high school history class teaches that this country is racist or sexist.

Idiotic garbage video.

Ignorant trash.

Dismissed.

Luther said:

What do ya think?

Click to expand...

America is better than ever. It will be even better when all the Baby Boomers are pushing up daisies, so we still have room to improve, but we are getting there.

That's interesting. The "Baby Boomer" generation used to say the same thing about the Silent Generation. The Silent Generation was, well, silent.

Drawdown said:

America is better than ever. It will be even better when all the Baby Boomers are pushing up daisies, so we still have room to improve, but we are getting there.

Click to expand...

SDET said:

That's interesting. The "Baby Boomer" generation used to say the same thing about the Silent Generation. The Silent Generation was, well, silent.

Click to expand...

More the reason to send them to the glue factory.

VySky said:

What would my grandparents think today of the America that turned it's back on their values?

Click to expand...

They would have thought the same thing your great great grandparents would have thought about the America of your grandparents' time.

This narrative is not a new phenomenon by any stretch of the imagination. Even if society is more technologically advanced, human nature hasn't changed.

How to know when you're officially old: You believe that today's cultural values are inherently inferior to the values you grew up with.

Thoreau72 said:

I wonder which number is greater, the number of those who abhor our past achievements, or the number of those who conceal our past crimes?

Click to expand...

Describe "conceal[ing your] past crimes".

"Concealing" is a powerful word. Much more powerful than "de-emphasizing" or even "omitting". The only people it would apply to here are those who are actively trying to prevent citizens from learning or uncovering historical facts. (And note here that "prevent" is not the same thing as "making it less likely" unless the likelihood drops to near zero.)

Who do you allege is doing this, and how, precisely?

SDET said:

That's interesting. The "Baby Boomer" generation used to say the same thing about the Silent Generation. The Silent Generation was, well, silent.

Click to expand...

Tell me, how does a brutal military junta dictator match up and jive with your "libertarianism"?

Captain Adverse said:

No, IMO it is not a false choice.

The phrase "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" is apropos of our current social ills. Throughout history great nations have risen and fallen based on the faith and loyalty of the citizens to the ideals and foundational belief systems which created those nations in the first place. As soon as people lose that faith and loyalty, the decline and fall becomes inevitable.

Our nation was not "built on slavery." Slavery existed, and that was a bad thing, but it was not universally accepted else there would never have been a "war between North and South." Racism existed, and still does throughout the world. But that is part of our inherent tribalistic nature. A nature one sees exhibited by our lesser primate cousins in the wild, living within a few miles of each other as they battle over territory and for resources and breeding rights.

It is a good thing that we strive to overcome the "evils" inherent in our basic natures, and learn from our mistakes. But IMO it is a bad thing to constantly wallow in them seeking "privileges and special treatment" instead of learning from them and moving on with pride in our ability to adapt and improve on the past.

That is the problem with your response. We are not accepting the "binary" you assert. We are denigrating the "good," highlighting the "evil," and seeking a complete dissolution of the old in favor of some idealistic and unrealistic "vision" of a new utopia. That is the dystopian view that has always led to decadence and the downfall of just about every past society in history.

IMO we should embrace the past, learn from our mistakes while still resting our faith and pride on the foundational ideals posited by those people of vision which led us to the be the "greatest experiment in government" to date in history. Otherwise, we will simply fail and end up like every other great nation, rotted from the inside out, and replaced by a new "barbaric" culture.

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand." We see that in our current ideological divide, how viciously so many abhor our past achievements in pursuit of the new socialist dialectic. Seeking "one-party rule" to force changes "now" rather than respect how our current system has actually worked to allow for a natural change toward realization of the ideals espoused by those men and women who founded this nation.

Click to expand...

Great diatribe but.........

One question after reading your post.

If you truly believe what you wrote, why do you support Trump. He is working to destroy everything that your post says!

Learn from past mistakes?
Rest our faith and price on the foundational ideals?
A nation divided cannot stand?
Seeking a one-man rule to force changes "now"

Trump does not believe in any of these!

Are you a hypocite?

Captain Adverse said:

No, IMO it is not a false choice.

The phrase "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" is apropos of our current social ills.

Our nation was not "built on slavery....

Click to expand...

We are repeating history; the robber barons of the 19th Century were stymied and contained by Anti-Trust laws, which we are now ignoring, supplanting and doing away with. The result is the multinationals that have sapped local economies of wealth, impoverishing them while profits are shipped back to corporate to be hidden away, untaxable, in transfer corporations and off-shore accounts. Slavery and exploitation did play a significant role in the building of our Nation.

Captain Adverse said:

That is the problem with your response. We are not accepting the "binary" you assert.

Click to expand...

HIS response is NOT binary, the OP video is. His little "scales" trick was exactly binary, either this or that. Jezcoe was astute enough to call BS and point out that the REALITY of it is a mixture of both.

Captain Adverse said:

IMO we should embrace the past, learn from our mistakes while still resting our faith and pride on the foundational ideals posited by those people of vision which led us to the be the "greatest experiment in government" to date in history. Otherwise, we will simply fail and end up like every other great nation, rotted from the inside out, and replaced by a new "barbaric" culture.

Click to expand...

Now who's being binary? I agree that learning from past mistakes while holding on to past achievements is a worthy and necessary goal to maximize growth. But we're not going to sail off the end of a flat earth if we don't. What will bring about our demise is if we fail to work together to continue this "greatest experiment in government" instead of fighting each other like enemies worse than any we've ever faced before. The world is round, togehter we can prosper and be GREAT!

I think it is time to remember the words of FDR: "... first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. I admit, RIGHT NOW, we are at a cross roads; will our Grand Experiment continue or NOT? The GREATEST thing we should now fear is the enmity between … US!

As a child I remember we had a lot of war surplus things with U.S. on them, this was at a time when These United States were never more UNITED. I remember making the connection between U.S. and US and how proud I was that we, AmeriCANs, were US. Hatred, nameless, unreasoning, unjustified hatred which is paralyzing us and has destroyed that US is today that which we must fear. That is the ONLY thing that can destroy US.

Captain Adverse said:

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand." We see that in our current ideological divide, how viciously so many abhor our past achievements in pursuit of the new socialist dialectic. Seeking "one-party rule" to force changes "now" rather than respect how our current system has actually worked to allow for a natural change toward realization of the ideals espoused by those men and women who founded this nation.

Click to expand...

That sentiment is EXACTLY what is threating our nation. There is NO "new socialist dialectic" other than that fostered by tRump and Co. to further divide US. WE are ALL AmeriCANs that love our Country, we must find a way to compromise with the Guiding Goal of RE-UNITING America. There is no "Again" we ARE GREAT and the Greatest America will be the America that makes ALL AmeriCANs as GREAT as they want to be; and for America to be GREAT we have to be US AGAIN!

Freedom from Socialism.

Obscurity said:

Tell me, how does a brutal military junta dictator match up and jive with your "libertarianism"?

Click to expand...

SDET said:

Freedom from Socialism.

Click to expand...

What a bunch of nonsense. If you celebrate using an authoritarian dictator and a military junta to repress and expunge criticism of Mises and his absurdly idiotic perspective, you're no libertarian.

SDET said:

Freedom from Socialism.

Click to expand...

Socialism has NEVER existed only Totalitarian Dictatorships that have hidden behind the cloak of "socialism". You are stimulated so you bark your conditioned response, but you no longer know why.

Captain Adverse said:

Our nation was not "built on slavery."

Click to expand...

Yeah, it was. The southern colonies likely would not have survived without African laborers, as they were more resistant to malaria than Europeans. Slavery was integral to agricultural production for centuries. They were a major part of the workforce that built Washington DC. The list goes on.

It is a good thing that we strive to overcome the "evils" inherent in our basic natures, and learn from our mistakes. But IMO it is a bad thing to constantly wallow in them seeking "privileges and special treatment" instead of learning from them and moving on with pride in our ability to adapt and improve on the past.

Click to expand...

Or, the insistence on "moving on," when discrimination still exists, and those harmed by centuries of discrimination are still oppressed, is an attempt to whitewash the past and avoid doing anything to improve the situation, mostly to protect an illusion of privilege perpetuated by the discrimination.

That is the problem with your response. We are not accepting the "binary" you assert. We are denigrating the "good," highlighting the "evil," and seeking a complete dissolution of the old in favor of some idealistic and unrealistic "vision" of a new utopia. That is the dystopian view that has always led to decadence and the downfall of just about every past society in history.

Click to expand...

Uh.... no. That's a patently absurd claim. I can't think of a single society that "denigrated the good" and "highligted the evil" (whatever that means), or collapsed because it wanted to dissolve the old order in favor of a utopian vision.

Gauls? Nope, military defeat by the Romans. Western half of Rome? Nope, they most likely overextended their military and political capacity. Eastern half of Rome? Nope, they were gradually picked apart by enemies, notably the Ottomans. Ottomans? Military defeat in WWI. Chinese Song? Nope, they were defeated by the Mongols. Mayans? Nope, they were doing just fine until the Spaniards showed up, with their horses and guns and armor and smallpox. The British Empire? Nope. They lost the US because they treated the colonists like they were inferior; they lost most of their colonies after WWII because they were broke, and the idea of holding colonies was increasingly untenable. The list goes on.

In the immortal words of Abe Lincoln, "a Nation divided against itself, cannot stand." We see that in our current ideological divide, how viciously so many abhor our past achievements in pursuit of the new socialist dialectic. Seeking "one-party rule" to force changes "now" rather than respect how our current system has actually worked to allow for a natural change toward realization of the ideals espoused by those men and women who founded this nation.

Click to expand...

Fun fact! The history of the United States is filled with partisan, ideological and political divides. The colonists were torn on the issue of rebellion; roughly half wanted independence, and a quarter did not. George Washington was infuriated by the partisanship of his time, which formed the proto-parties of Federalists and Republicans. They argued over how much authority the federal government should have; whether the US should have a central bank; whether to sign a treaty with England; how much, if at all, to get involved in Europe's disputes; whether slavery should be expanded into new territories, and so on. Lots of issues were divisive in the 19th Century, including but not limited to slavery, Native Americans, hard currency, railroads and more. All of this was fueled by what was once called "yellow journalism" and what we now call "fake news."

Obviously, the 20th century saw its own sharp divides over trust-busting, major economic downturns, civil rights, multiple wars, globalization, and the infamous "culture wars."

If anything, the 1950s and 1960s were exceptional in the cooling of some passions. However, that was most likely a result of the rise of television, which resulted in a handful of centrist news sources holding authoritative positions. That fell apart both with the proliferation of cheap and social media, as well as opportunistic partisan attacks on the media by the right-wing in the face of multiple national scandals (Watergate, Iran-Contra etc).

In other words: If you've actually studied US history, you'd know what we are seeing today really isn't all that new. Partisan media? Check. Two parties fighting for dominance? Check. Families arguing over key issues? Check. Socioeconomic disruptions? Check. Fights for civil rights? Check. Arguments about the role and power of central government? Check.

What can I say, it seems mildly amusing that someone who proclaims we should learn from our history does not seem to have learned much from our history. :mrgreen:

VySky said:

Six years ago in 2013 I contributed to a Blog for gun owners. One on my contributions is titled 'Why I'm Losing Hope and the other 'The Decay of Society'. Unarguably, we continued spiraling down the path without detour. I'll leave one of them here.

Not sure if forum rules allow me to provide a link, so I'll await clarification.. Being new, I don't want to get tossed as it appears my point of view(s) are in the minority, which inspires me to continue making my voice heard.

-VySky

Why I'm Losing Hope

Because I was raised to love God & Country. My grandparents were hard working tobacco farmers for all their lives. They never ventured far from their home in Tennessee. During my youth, I spent my summers there working in the hot August fields and in the top of some bat and spider infested barns. But you know what? It felt like Utopia. The family would gather on Sundays for dinner (lunch down south) then retire to the vast fields for games of baseball until the lighting bugs blinked at sunset. America was a different place then. It was a place were a man was judged by the sweat off his brow and how he provided for his family. As grandma used to say; "I don't care if you dig a ditch for a living, just dig it to the best of your ability". They were true Americans who taught me the value and pride which comes from a hard days work.

I have tried to pass the culture to my son's. And to some extent, it is still a work in progress. It's just hard for them to see the forest through the trees. Some today get more fired up about a new release of the Ipad than it does at the prospects of employment. Sad

What would my grandparents think today of the America that turned it's back on their values? I picture the Indian with a tear in his eye (viewing litter) from the commercial years ago. The difference today is he would be reduced to a mere man on his knees viewing the cesspool society has manifested and nurtured.

The election was a referendum on the American Dream as my generation knew it. The shear fact that a little over half of us (America collectively) voted for the continued weakening of our National Sovernity is hard to stomach.

I can only hope the reason immigrants flock to America is because of the image it used to reflect, not the image of today. But as the subj: reads, I am on the slippery slope called hope and am growing more bitter by the day.

Click to expand...

I am positive we had the very same grandparents. I too have worked with success (Luckily) to instill those same values to my 3 kids and I have been very blessed they have embraced those values. But I do fear what they and my grandkids will endure in the future. I ask myself, how did we even get here, how do these people come to their conclusions?

I have convinced myself, these are not Americans. They are occupants wanting to create some magic utopia they have envisioned at all cost. When you can't even agree on the founding documents of this country, where do you go from here? Even in the face of what they have created in California they can't learn from their own misery and failures and now demand we all succumb to homeless living and defecating in the streets, Sanctuary cities, free healthcare for Illegals, gun grabs, and eliminating the electoral college.