Voted for Clinton, can't vote for Biden

Dans La Lune said:

I can and will complain about both. Just as I'd assume you'd complain if Biden turned out to be a terrible president. The burden isn't on me to support Biden, the burden is on me to stop Biden because he's the weakest candidate to go up against Trump. The calculation for Biden is everyone coalescing around Biden once he wins the nomination. It didn't work for Hillary, who I voted for, and it won't work for Biden if its a tight race.

If you want my vote, try earning it. I'm not a party loyalist, I care about policy. Biden doesn't support the policies I support. So again, lay your dead calf at someone else's feet if Biden loses.

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I think the question is (or would be) which person supports more of the policies you prefer - Biden or Trump? Which President will sign pretty much anything the Democratic Congress sends to his desk? Biden or Trump? Which candidate will appoint judges that are more likely to make decisions you support? Which person is more likely to appoint regulators who want to regulate, and people in, say, EPA who are worried about clean air and water versus regulated industries' bottom lines?

If you're a liberal, none of those questions are difficult IMO. Biden (or anyone else in the Democratic field) is more likely to do ALL those things.

Frankly, I just don't really care which person wins the nomination. It will matter on the margins, but if you're worried about progressive legislation, Congress is where the action will be, not in the WH. If Democrats don't win big majorities in the House and Senate, nothing substantial will get done. And if they do win substantial majorities, anyone in the WH signs what they send him or her.

Obviously it's your vote, but I'd just ask how you think progressive policies have a better chance of being enacted under Trump, than Biden with a Senate of 60 Democrats, and a majority in the House?

Dans La Lune said:

Would any self-respecting 'liberal/progressive' vote for a President Joe Manchin if it came down to him and Trump? He's slightly more tolerable than Trump. Go ahead and tell me you would vote for Manchin and not savage the party for putting up such a horrible alternative.

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Of course, and I wouldn't have to think about it for more than about a half second. The old saying, "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind...

Do you think Manchin would veto a healthcare bill that got 60 Democratic votes in the Senate? How about a democratic budget? Some kind of education reform that lowers debt burdens for those attending college, community college or trade school? Would Trump veto those things? Which one is more likely to sign whatever the presumably Democratic Congress puts on his desk?

Dans La Lune said:

Yes, that argument swayed me last time and Trump still got two SCOTUS picks. I suspect Trump will actually get three SCOTUS appointments before this is done (very unlikely RBG will survive). And the lower courts have already been transformed for generations. Sorry, our salvation is not in the courts.

I'm done with that argument.

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They haven't been transformed for generations because lots of judges are already old, and even those newly appointed won't live for "generations" on the court. So if you're worried about the courts, it's illogical to not want a Democrat appointing those many lower court and SC picks ASAP and as long as possible.

Dans La Lune said:

Yes it does.

Hillary was a 'damaged candidate' because Republicans took faux scandal mole hills and blew them up. You don't think this same treatment is waiting for Biden? Boy are you in for a surprise.

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What matters is that tRump is sent back to where he came from. <--Period

The difference is "they" had over 8 years to defame, slander and lie about Clinton and the got very good at it. They don't have that time for whomever is nominated by the DNC.

JasperL said:

Of course, and I wouldn't have to think about it for more than about a half second. The old saying, "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind...

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I agree that you didn't appear to put half a second of thought into the political calculation. I think any progressive who would settle for Trump-lite deserves to lose, and lose badly. Joe Manchin supports like 80-90% of Trump's policies. Talk about settling for less.

Oh well, to each his own.

Dans La Lune said:

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm using as the last straw to a metric ton of straws.

Also, watch Biden's black support drop like a stone once his record is laid bare. You think Hillary's super-predator remark was bad?

I'm trying to tell you, Biden is the weakest candidate on the stage. I'm doing a service.

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About 3/4ths of the Democrats agree with you. I do too, but I also believe it's obvious Biden for all his faults would be FAR better than Trump so I'll go to the polls in a year or so and vote straight Democratic all the way down the line for federal offices, and I don't care who the candidates are.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

President Trump thanks you.
Sorry, but that is the reality.
Hey, I feel the same way about Biden, he's an idiot.
But I don't think we can afford another four years of Trump, it's just that simple.

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I agree with everything you said. The bolded in particular.
I hope someone else gets the nomination, but if not, I will hold my nose and take a plunge.

Fletch said:

And if you notice, no one here is making a case FOR Biden, they are all making a case against Trump. Biden has no constituency. There is no one excited by a Biden candidacy or who supports him based upon some policy idea he has endorsed. He doesnt draw crowds or inspire people with his rhetoric. People support him because they are under the delusion that he can win. As soon as they realize he cant, they will drop him like a rock. But by then it might be too late.

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I agree with all of that, and right now about 3/4ths of Democrats don't support Biden and also agree. Frankly I think he's lost it mentally, but he's the donor's favorite I expect because he's essentially got the politics of H.W. Bush or somebody like that. But if he is the nominee, that's not a hard decision.

Dans La Lune said:

I represent tens of thousands of people? Please explain that to me. You better hope you're wrong and Biden isn't the nominee.

Obama himself basically flipped a coin, and saw Biden as someone who would NOT be his successor or would shape of the Democratic party after his presidency. In fact, Obama actively encouraged Biden NOT to run. Still trust Obama's opinion, or is that selective?

Someone has to have principles. I will not accept one iota of responsibility if Biden loses, and Trump gets another four year. I will in fact say "I told you so", and blame everyone who voted for Biden as the nominee. I will also blame the media for artificially propping Biden up as a candidate.

More Bernie supporters voted for Hillary in 2016 than Hillary voters voted for Obama in 2008. That's simply a fact. It's not our fault that Hillary was a weak candidate, and Biden a weaker candidate still.

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But if you don't vote, you are responsible, same as if you cast the deciding vote for Trump. If you can help defeat him but choose not to, you've made a decision FOR keeping him in office and all that entails. If Trump succeeds in killing off the ACA, and 10 million lose insurance because you want to stand on principle, you can thank yourself for helping kick those 10 million off the insurance rolls because Biden wouldn't fight to kill it and roll back Medicaid, and end ACA subsidies, but Trump is trying to do all of that. Those losing insurance will I'm sure NOT thank you for your principled stance.

bullseyelqcs said:

On the surface , I agree with your sentiment. That stated, I also see the flaw of that sentiment.

Last election, I, for the first time in my adult life, left the box for President empty because of my principles. I now see that that was a tragic mistake.

Heres the thing.....I didn't support Hillary in the least, but I now recognize that not getting ANY of what I wanted accomplished is a far worse thing than not getting ALL of what I wanted accomplished.

The problem with the Sanders/Warren/AOC crowd is that they seem perfectly content to fiddle while Rome burns. That is just a piss poor mindset about the whole thing. As someone who actually acted on that mindset, I regret doing so and have for the last 3 years now. I allowed my overinflated sense of principle prevent me from doing the prudent thing, which would have been to do what was needed to make sure Trump didn't get elected. He had no intention of implementing ANYTHING I think is good, and it was really my duty to do what I could to prevent that. If I only agreed with Hillary on 30% of her platform, it was still 30% more than I agreed with Trump on, and that should have been enough.

As the old adage says, cutting off ones nose to spite thier face is a poor decision in the end. Just some friendly advice.

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That bolded is the bottom line. Seems obvious to me.

Fletch said:

Your post makes no sense. You claim to be a conservative but will vote for a left wing kook if thats who the dems put up? Tell me what policies Trump is pursuing that you disagree with. Is it tax cuts you disagree with? Reducing regulations? Improving trade agreements? Border security? Conservative judges? You claim to be a conservative then declare that you are going to vote against the most conservative president we have ever had. Thats insane.

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He stood on AF1, looked directly into the camera and said he did not know about the hush money payments to the porn star. To me that's no different than Bill Clinton pointing into the camera and saying he did not have relations with that woman, a lie as a sitting president to the people he serves is inexcusable period.

I'm also not a fan of the wall, it's a colossal waste of money. I resent the fact that he could not humble himself enough for the good of the people to reconcile with a dying old man to get health care reform passed. I'm also unhappy he's destroying relationships with allies that were put in place to protect our interests and those of the world because he wants to play the role of tough guy, he has accomplished nothing on the international stage.

Dans La Lune said:

Also, watch Biden's black support drop like a stone once his record is laid bare. You think Hillary's super-predator remark was bad?

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According to Biden just last week, black people "don't know what to do" with their kids. So his second step in recovering from the scourge of slavery is to give teachers pay raises and have black people ship their kids off to school starting at age 3 so they can get the help they need in how to handle their children. You know, like turning on record players to expose them to words:

Number two, make sure that we bring in to help the teachers deal with the problems that come from home. The problems that come from home, we need — we have one school psychologist for every 1,500 kids in America today. It’s crazy.

The teachers are — I’m married to a teacher. My deceased wife is a teacher. They have every problem coming to them. We have — make sure that every single child does, in fact, have 3-, 4-, and 5-year-olds go to school. School. Not daycare. School. We bring social workers into homes and parents to help them deal with how to raise their children.

It’s not that they don’t want to help. They don’t — they don’t know quite what to do. Play the radio, make sure the television — excuse me, make sure you have the record player on at night, the — the — make sure that kids hear words. A kid coming from a very poor school — a very poor background will hear 4 million words fewer spoken by the time they get there.

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The guy is a walking disaster. One can only imagine if these words came out of a Republican's mouth, but Mr. "Obama is the first clean, well spoken black person" continues to get a pass.

Dans La Lune said:

Would any self-respecting 'liberal/progressive' vote for a President Joe Manchin if it came down to him and Trump? He's slightly more tolerable than Trump. Go ahead and tell me you would vote for Manchin and not savage the party for putting up such a horrible alternative.

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False equivalency, it would never come down to those two.

Obscurity said:

No, having the guts to say "You will pay more in taxes but no premiums, co-payments, deductibles, etc" is the honest way to have this conversation.

Sanders TALKS about HOW this will be achieved. His plans lay it out in detail; increased taxes, removal of tax breaks for the rich and corporations, etc.

Only an ideologue thinks Sanders' plan is untenable. What's untenable is Joe Biden's plan, which is the ACA, which we all know is a total joke and a right wing bill.

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The point was if there are going to be a lot of cost savings, which is the promise, that means hospital closings, 10s of thousands or more lost jobs in healthcare, zeroing out or gutting several health insurance companies that employ maybe 500,000, definitely lower wages for lots of providers, not just doctors. The fiction is that this can all be done by only hitting the wealthy, or the greedy insurers, without also hitting lots of workers. $billions in savings means job losses, fewer services, closed rural hospitals. If not that then there won't be significant cost savings.

And I don't have a problem with MFA, but the bottom line is if you promise and get 'free' healthcare for everyone, no copays, etc. then not everyone will pay lower premiums ($0) and pay less in taxes. It's impossible and the wealthy aren't a big enough group to finance all that, and free college, and the rent control bill, and all the rest of the social services like EBT, EITC, and more. So lots and lots of those in the bottom 80% will pay more in taxes than the premium savings. We need to be honest about that, because if we're not then it will be made crystal clear in the general when those insurers looking at literally $100s of billions in lost premiums, lost market value, will flood the airways with examples.

Where you have UHC and generous social welfare programs, you also see, invariably AFAIK, high VAT taxes - generally 20-25%, which are equivalent to sales taxes and highly regressive. And the reason is the base is huge - basically all consumption of goods and services - and that with relatively high rates is how you sustainably finance generous social welfare programs. No one does it with just higher income taxes on the wealthy or corporations. Like it or not the TJCA got corporate tax rates down to basically world norms at this time.

Dans La Lune said:

I agree that you didn't appear to put half a second of thought into the political calculation. I think any progressive who would settle for Trump-lite deserves to lose, and lose badly. Joe Manchin supports like 80-90% of Trump's policies. Talk about settling for less.

Oh well, to each his own.

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I have thought about it. I added this 10 minutes before you posted so I assume you saw it and ignored it, but here it is again;

Do you think Manchin would veto a healthcare bill that got 60 Democratic votes in the Senate? How about a democratic budget? Some kind of education reform that lowers debt burdens for those attending college, community college or trade school? Would Trump veto those things? Which one is more likely to sign whatever the presumably Democratic Congress puts on his desk?

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If we don't get a big majority in the Senate and House, it won't matter much who wins the WH because nothing you want done will get through Congress. If we do have that, you need to answer the question - who is more likely to sign what Democrats send to him - this theoretical Manchin who is not in the race and no one even close to his ideology is in the race, or Trump? If it's Manchin, why wouldn't I prefer him to Trump in an EASY choice?

And what I don't get about guys like you is do you expect that a senator in a state that went..... 69-26 for TRUMP will vote like a liberal from NY? He represents the voters of that state, which are decidedly NOT liberal, and his voting record reflects that, but only 55% of the time with Trump. How is that not better than Trump?

If the goal is better, the choice is obvious. If it's my way or nothing and I sit at home and cry that life's not fair, I guess that's an option but I don't see how it helps the country to leave what I consider the worst president easily in 100 years in office for another term.

Pound4abrown said:

I agree with everything you said. The bolded in particular.
I hope someone else gets the nomination, but if not, I will hold my nose and take a plunge.

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And I'll put feet to the fire no matter which Dem wins, even my own favorite.
They have to earn my respect.

BrotherFease said:

No. I don't agree with that.

Clinton lost because she played to win the national popular vote rather than the electoral college, you know the one that actually counts.

Clinton won the popular vote by about 2.6 million, but didn't really campaign in the rust belt states. She assumed, it would swing toward her like what happened with the previous Democrat Presidents for the past 21 years.

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This is true as well. There are numerous reasons Hillary lost. But it is true that democrats did not embrace Hillary the way they embraced Obama. Many democrats didn't like her.

Luther said:

And.... welcome Trump buddy!

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I voted for Hillary in 2016 solely as an anti-Trump vote. Too many democrats voted 3rd party because they didn't like her. Those votes ended up going to Trump. I suspect there will be legions more like me in 2020 who learned their lesson in 2016.

JasperL said:

I have thought about it. I added this 10 minutes before you posted so I assume you saw it and ignored it, but here it is again;

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...

If we don't get a big majority in the Senate and House, it won't matter much who wins the WH because nothing you want done will get through Congress. If we do have that, you need to answer the question - who is more likely to sign what Democrats send to him - this theoretical Manchin who is not in the race and no one even close to his ideology is in the race, or Trump? If it's Manchin, why wouldn't I prefer him to Trump in an EASY choice?

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Yeah, well, kinda of exactly my point. If Manchin is the nominee (hypothetically), he would not sign progressive bills coming out of the House and Senate, and his very existence on the ticket will suppress turnout. And he'd still lose to Trump.

And what I don't get about guys like you is do you expect that a senator in a state that went..... 69-26 for TRUMP will vote like a liberal from NY? He represents the voters of that state, which are decidedly NOT liberal, and his voting record reflects that, but only 55% of the time with Trump. How is that not better than Trump?

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Oh god. Bernie's policies are immensely popular in red states, and yet Democrats try the failed strategy of pushing corporate-backed Republican-lite candidates in those states. Look at that loser Claire McCaskill, now an MSNBC contributor, trying to educate Democrats on how to win elections. Joe Manchin is further to the right than many Republicans.

If the goal is better, the choice is obvious. If it's my way or nothing and I sit at home and cry that life's not fair, I guess that's an option but I don't see how it helps the country to leave what I consider the worst president easily in 100 years in office for another term.

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lwf said:

It didn't happen for Hillary. Record numbers of democrats defected and voted 3rd party because she was a weak candidate, like you are proposing if Biden is selected. That's why she lost. It did happen for Trump, however. Republicans joined forces and locked arms around their candidate regardless of how distasteful they found him. And it worked.

I don't fault you for voting your conscience. But American democracy is winner take all. A 3rd party vote in 2020 is a vote for four more years of Trump.

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You're right about the Repubs, they may have racist policies and Don might be ruining our country's reputation, but Repubs know to reach their disgusting goals. You're much more forgiving than I am.

It's one thing not faulting voters for Trump's election '16, but after 3 years of this fiasco?!? The definition of conscience, "an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior."

I fault anyone and their supposed, 'conscience', for not doing everything possible to keep our fascist and most dangerous president out of office. Their, 'inner guide', is as defective as Don's morality...

Dans La Lune said:

Yeah, well, kinda of exactly my point. If Manchin is the nominee (hypothetically), he would not sign progressive bills coming out of the House and Senate, and his very existence on the ticket will suppress turnout. And he'd still lose to Trump.

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He's not the nominee, and isn't running, no one that far to the right is running and even if he/she was, the question was who is more likely to sign progressive legislation passed by 60 Democrats in the Senate? Manchin, who is a democrat and got elected in the same year we elected a 60 vote majority, or Trump?

Obviously in this hypothetical world, it's an easy choice, no?

Oh god. Bernie's policies are immensely popular in red states, and yet Democrats try the failed strategy of pushing corporate-backed Republican-lite candidates in those states. Look at that loser Claire McCaskill, now an MSNBC contributor, trying to educate Democrats on how to win elections. Joe Manchin is further to the right than many Republicans.

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Great, if his policies are immensely popular versus Biden's, shouldn't be a problem for Bernie to wipe the floor in the primaries.

BTW, I agree about Biden, and do does about 75% of the Democratic party because his support is something like 26% or so last I checked. That's not the issue. The question is if he wins the nomination will I vote for him and I will because of what I laid out in several posts and that you've either ignored or moved the goal posts on me. There is IMO no question ANY Democrat will sign virtually everything sent to him by a presumably Democratic congress.

I basically agree with this principle, applied to the Democrats: Grover Norquist on the GOP candidates: All we need is someone who can 'handle a pen'

We just need a president to sign this stuff. We don't need someone to think it up or design it. The leadership now for the modern conservative movement for the next 20 years will be coming out of the House and the Senate. [...]

Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the United States. This is a change for Republicans: the House and Senate doing the work with the president signing bills. His job is to be captain of the team, to sign the legislation that has already been prepared."

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If Warren or Sanders working with whoever is the Sen. majority leader (a Democrat we'll assume) gets e.g. MFA through, IMO any Democrat will sign it, and all the rest those two are promising.

Bottom line for Bernie supporters is this....if he doesnt win the nomination and you take your ball and go home, dont be surprised when the games ends and the guys who come with the new ball totally change the rules and you get nothing.

Its really that simple.

JasperL said:

I agree with all of that, and right now about 3/4ths of Democrats don't support Biden and also agree. Frankly I think he's lost it mentally, but he's the donor's favorite I expect because he's essentially got the politics of H.W. Bush or somebody like that. But if he is the nominee, that's not a hard decision.

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If hes the nominee, he will get the support of those who hate Trump. Will that be enough? I dont think so. I think people need someone to vote FOR.

"Joe Biden, less Crazy than Trump" doesnt strike me as a winning slogan.

Dans La Lune said:

The 2016 election was a dumpster fire. I almost didn't vote, but ended up pulling for Clinton because she signed on to much of the platform Bernie wrote. And for a few other reasons.

I can't and won't vote for Biden under any circumstances. He's demonstrably worse than Clinton in every way. And yes, while Biden is better than Trump, the calculation is not sufficient to get me on Biden's team. What sealed it for me was the last debate.

His suggestion that black people don't know how to raise their children was just out-and-out racist, and his answer from then veered into an incoherent ramble on Venezuela. If this is the best Dems can do, I'm out. Let the moderates save the country from Trump, if they can.

Biden's incoherent ramble...

...

Nina Turner's epic response.

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In any election, there are dozens of candidates who are eventually culled down to a few. When you choose not to vote because you don't like the options you hurt the democratic process. How you feel about Trump doesn't get recorded. This skews the result.

You're helping Trump get reelected.

And the idea that Biden is racist is absurd. I think you're reading too much into what he said.

I'm Black and I'll tell you that in poor communities the problem with education is the parents. Poverty has a lot of ils and one of those is bad parenting. I knew this Blacks girl who was accepted to Harvard. Both her parents were drug addicts. Fortunately, her grandmother raised her.

I've had friends who went into teaching because they wanted to help the world. They were very idealistic. They quit in a couple of years because the kids in the inner city were so difficult to deal with.

It's not that Black people are poor parents. It's a symptom of poverty.

Fletch said:

If hes the nominee, he will get the support of those who hate Trump. Will that be enough? I dont think so. I think people need someone to vote FOR.

"Joe Biden, less Crazy than Trump" doesnt strike me as a winning slogan.

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Again, I agree 100%. I think he's a terrible choice personally and have said so several times. He's run before and did miserably both times, so we KNOW how he does in campaigns and it's not good. Plus, I have serious concerns he's mentally up for it. That answer about slavery reparations didn't offend me as racist, but he looks like a guy who just can't put the words together, has an answer he's supposed to say, and can't do it.

Senators can function fine like that because staffers do all the work anyway, and they just raise money and vote every so often, but I think we deserve a President who's functionally on top of his/her game not clearly on the downward slide.