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Why do people support Warren over Bernie?

There is a solution to the court imbalance.

There is nothing in the Constitution that mandates the size of the SCOTUS. It's been up to ten justices in the past, and it can be so again.

1. Change the senate rules so that cloture can be filled for laws governing the judiciary with a simple majority.
2. Pass a bill that adds an additional seat to the SCOTUS.
3. Fill that mother****er.

If the Republicans don't learn the lesson, rinse and repeat, until they stop trying to control the court.

I'm fine with any solution, as long as there is a solution. If Democrats get a majority and don't fix the courts, then they deserve to be out of power forever after that.
 
I'll take a crack at the question.

Warren is a woman, Bernie is a man. I think voters are aching for someone who doesn't fit the status quo.

Warren doesn't play the same old record over and over again. Her answers are more diverse and unpredictable. With Sanders, you know what he's going to say before he opens his mouth.

Socialism scares people, particularly older voters. Warren has stayed clear of the socialist label, and insists she loves capitalism, but needs more constraints.

Sanders is 78 years old. He'll be 79 if elected President. Warren just turned 70, and would be 71 years old if elected. If she's President for 8 years, she wouldn't be 80 yet. Sanders would be in his late 80s. I think voters would be more comfortable with a 70 year old in office rather than an 80 year old.

New York is a closed primary state, therefore I have no dog in this fight. If NY was an open primary state, I would definitely participate in the NY primary.
 
Lies, lies, lies, after the first point. Warren was a Republican until 1996. Sanders has worked as a Democrat for decades, causused with Democrats for decades. You are smearing him with lies as you always have. He's not an 'independent socialist', he supports a light version of Democratic Socialism for Americans to have healthcare and education.

LOL...

Sen. Bernie Sanders: 'I am an independent"

Sen. Bernie Sanders put to rest questions about his party affiliation, telling a Fox News reporter he’ll continue to run as an independent.

“I am an independent and I have always run in Vermont as an independent, while I caucus with the Democrats in the United States Senate,” Sanders said Sunday after an appearance in Rollinsford, N.H. “That’s what I’ve been doing for a long time and that’s what I’ll continue to do.”

BTW, this is basically when Bernie lost me.

Bernie Sanders won't commit to leaving the race if he fails to secure the Democratic nomination | TheHill

“Some people say that if maybe that system was not rigged against me, I would have won the nomination and defeated Donald Trump. That’s what some people say. So I think we’re going to play it out,”

At that point, I was over him. He lost, and all he could do was whine about it being rigged against him. Well, guess what. Bernie isn't an idiot or a newbie and he knew damn well that when he ran he wouldn't get the Democratic establishment support because, as he was quoted above, he is not a Democrat except when it's convenient for him at election time, then he runs as a democrat because of the party infrastructure, then leaves the party soon after.

So in late June he's dividing the party, throwing bricks at the Democratic party. So **** him. If he wants to do that, fine, run under his own party banner, since he's an independent. See how that works out for him.
 
If he wants to do that, fine, run under his own party banner, since he's an independent. See how that works out for him.


Actually, I'd much rather he not. If he splits the vote, he gives Trump the victory.

And then of course the far left gets policies even further from what it wants, but I guess they would get to tell themselves about how principled they are. People seem to prefer being able to do that over the general welfare...
 
Warren is not as insane as Sanders. You could add that Warren is actually a democrat, while Sanders takes pride in not being one, until he wants something from democrats.

This is why I won't vote for Bernie in the primary, but if he is the nominee, I will campaign for him and he will most definitely get my vote.
 
Put this into action (again) and you give Trump yet another four years, just to stick it to the Dems who aren't as uber-left as you are...

False. I could say, put YOUR view into action (again - what do you mean again, you got your corporatist candidate with Hillary in 2016) and you give trump another four years - both to show how easy it is to say, AND because it's a lot more true about you.

America simply isn't that far left.

First of all, this isn't only about what the country currently wants - it's about what the country needs. And the biggest threat we have to our country and our democracy is plutocracy, and we need to battle it.

The issue of what the country wants is part of the question - and the country supports Bernie's policies. And you are ignoring the issues of Democratic turnout - getting more of the Democrats who don't vote to do so, which Bernie does and your candidates do not - and voter passion, not to mention Bernie's crossover appeal to independents (he got twice as many as Hillary) and even trump voters (many trump voters would have voted for Bernie, but not Hillary).

I'd like it (and you wouldn't) if both the Dems and GOP split down the middle. That way those around the center could generally hold power and get things done, without the more radical ideas from either fringe gumming things up.

The center doesn't get CRAP done. It does nothing but sit in office while plutocracy continues to gain wealth and power and destroy our democracy. Saying they 'get things done' is propaganda and a lie - as is the word 'radical' for progressive policies. Healthcare and education are not "radical", our record inequality and plutocracy are radical.

We're already borrowing a trillion a year to fund tax cuts.

The progressive budget balances the budget faster than the Republican, the Democratic, or the actual budgets.

Meanwhile, the far left Dem candidates are talking about massive spending increases without a way to pay for it.

Attacking a more fair distribution of wealth in the country with the claim that there isn't 'a way to pay for it' is another propaganda lie. Their policies all show how they'll pay for it. You can't attack the goal, so you attack a straw man lie.

And Bernie? **** Bernie's one-time study loan payoff plan. It may sound good to people who just had to go to a super-expensive private school and got a degree they couldn't convert into a job, but it doesn't sound good to everyone else......especially those who paid off their loans or went to a more affordable in-state state university, or went to a vocational school and jumped right into a job, etc, specifically because they were thinking ahead from the circumstances they found themselves in. But that's just one program.

Nit-picking. It's a good program that's an improvement over the current situation.

The candidates around Bernie's place on the left are actually finally lending some truth to the "free stuff" critique. We're not paying for what we have now. Put their policies into practice and we'll be borrowing trillions a year. That could only last a short time.

Lies. You need to get informed - giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just aren't informed, rather than dishonest.

And if the rejoinder is "but it won't get through congress", I say what the hell kind of reason is THAT to support a candidate? If there's no way a given uber-left policy is going to pass congress, then the candidate is wasting his/her time going on about how they're going to get it done.

Give me a president who is trying to get good policies and has a hard time over a president who gets bad policies.
 
So in late June he's dividing the party, throwing bricks at the Democratic party. So **** him. If he wants to do that, fine, run under his own party banner, since he's an independent. See how that works out for him.

And then Trump gets a second term.
 
There is a solution to the court imbalance.

There is nothing in the Constitution that mandates the size of the SCOTUS. It's been up to ten justices in the past, and it can be so again.

1. Change the senate rules so that cloture can be filled for laws governing the judiciary with a simple majority.
2. Pass a bill that adds an additional seat to the SCOTUS.
3. Fill that mother****er.

If the Republicans don't learn the lesson, rinse and repeat, until they stop trying to control the court.

Yup. We are gonna have to play dirty. We are too worried with being nice.
 
Bernie is just too far to the left for me. I'd rather vote for Warren or Buttigieg.

But I'll vote for whomever is selected to run against Trump.
 
False. I could say, put YOUR view into action (again - what do you mean again, you got your corporatist candidate with Hillary in 2016) and you give trump another four years - both to show how easy it is to say, AND because it's a lot more true about you. First of all, this isn't only about what the country currently wants - it's about what the country needs. And the biggest threat we have to our country and our democracy is plutocracy, and we need to battle it.

The issue of what the country wants is part of the question - and the country supports Bernie's policies. And you are ignoring the issues of Democratic turnout - getting more of the Democrats who don't vote to do so, which Bernie does and your candidates do not - and voter passion, not to mention Bernie's crossover appeal to independents (he got twice as many as Hillary) and even trump voters (many trump voters would have voted for Bernie, but not Hillary). The center doesn't get CRAP done. It does nothing but sit in office while plutocracy continues to gain wealth and power and destroy our democracy. Saying they 'get things done' is propaganda and a lie - as is the word 'radical' for progressive policies. Healthcare and education are not "radical", our record inequality and plutocracy are radical.

The progressive budget balances the budget faster than the Republican, the Democratic, or the actual budgets. Attacking a more fair distribution of wealth in the country with the claim that there isn't 'a way to pay for it' is another propaganda lie. Their policies all show how they'll pay for it. You can't attack the goal, so you attack a straw man lie.m Nit-picking. It's a good program that's an improvement over the current situation. Lies. You need to get informed - giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just aren't informed, rather than dishonest.

Give me a president who is trying to get good policies and has a hard time over a president who gets bad policies.

You are everything that's wrong with the modern left, buddy. Anger, spittle, false accusations, all against people who might otherwise be willing to listen to you, combined with that dangerous assurance that you are absolutely correct in everything. Think a Trumpist is going to be more likely to listen to you or something? :lol:

I resent the chop-and-snipe model - I'm not copy/pasting/arranging twenty different quote boxes for one damn post - so you only deserve a few brief retorts:

- You keep saying "your candidates" but you have no idea who "my candidates" might be. (Clue: Buttgieg is the only one I'm particularly happy about).

- You vastly overestimate the popularity of Bernie's policies ("the country supports". Right. That's why he can't ever get the Dem nomination. Because the entire country supports his policies. Right).

- "Saying they 'get things done' is propaganda and a lie" (along with many other dishonest accusations of lying). Because presidents like Clinton didn't get anything done? Because Obama didn't get Obamacare and a stimulus passed? Because Obama's generally centrist governing style is why he didn't get many policy initiatives done after that, rather than the GOP push to "block everything and make him a one term president?" :roll:

You should consider the possibility that the reason you keep accusing me of "lies" is psychological projection. That or you are just entering adulthood and have little in the way of a working understanding of the last seventy years of America history. Yes, centrists get more things done for the painfully ****ing obvious reason that the extremists at either end of the spectrum can't even convince the majority of their half of the spectrum, and precisely none of the other 'side'. That was an incredibly stupid thing for you to call a lie. Just, mind-numbingly stupid.




So, whatever. Give someone else an uber-left rant. I want politicians with actual solutions, not pie-in-the-sky dreams that feel good but end up going nowhere.
 
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Read your own damn link. There is no party registration in Vermont. Bernie is maximizing his appeal as an independent candidate there. Short of the check box on that, everything he does for decades is as a Democrats - caucusing, committee chairman, party leadership in the Senate. Everything.

BTW, this is basically when Bernie lost me.

In response to a question about what if he loses, he says he's planning to win - the scandal! Instead of trying to make an issue of that, try looking at his actual history of campaigning harder for Hillary than anyone else.

At that point, I was over him. He lost, and all he could do was whine about it being rigged against him. Well, guess what. Bernie isn't an idiot or a newbie and he knew damn well that when he ran he wouldn't get the Democratic establishment support because, as he was quoted above, he is not a Democrat except when it's convenient for him at election time, then he runs as a democrat because of the party infrastructure, then leaves the party soon after.

Correction to lies posted earlier in this thread.

So in late June he's dividing the party, throwing bricks at the Democratic party. So **** him. If he wants to do that, fine, run under his own party banner, since he's an independent. See how that works out for him.

He's uniting the party. You're dividing it, attacking him with lies.
 
Just curious, polls have them about tied for second place.

Curious what Warren is offering that Bernie isn't? To me Warren has a blind spot on foreign policy, where Bernie does not. And she's willing to play ball with the corporate interests that Bernie has vowed to fight.

I prefer Warren because I think she's a lot more pragmatic. Bernie is a real-life socialist. He doesn't call himself a Social Democrat. He calls himself a Democratic Socialist. A true Democratic Socialist believes that eventually, the end goal is a socialist society. But Bernie is very evasive about his socialist beliefs.

I like Bernie. I think he's very genuine and has the interests of people at heart. But I worry that he's too much of an ideologue. He believes that capitalism has to be replaced. I believe that we must make incremental changes to address problems without consideration of ideology. In other words, we should do what works.
 
You are everything that's wrong with the modern left, buddy. I resent the chop-and-snipe model - I'm not copy/pasting/arranging twenty different quote boxes for one damn post - so you only deserve a few brief retorts:

How to not get your post read, which it was not. Keep up the animosity and it'll be more than that.
 
Yup. We are gonna have to play dirty. We are too worried with being nice.
I remember Dario Franchitti (yes, Ashley Judd's ex) way back when he was one of the best race car drivers in the world.

He once said that if everyone else is racing dirty and you don't assert your ability to your retaliate, then you deserve it when you get run over.

There's a lot of truth to that for life in general, IMHO.
 
There is a solution to the court imbalance.

There is nothing in the Constitution that mandates the size of the SCOTUS. It's been up to ten justices in the past, and it can be so again.

1. Change the senate rules so that cloture can be filled for laws governing the judiciary with a simple majority.
2. Pass a bill that adds an additional seat to the SCOTUS.
3. Fill that mother****er.

If the Republicans don't learn the lesson, rinse and repeat, until they stop trying to control the court.

Yup. We are gonna have to play dirty. We are too worried with being nice.

Just as long as people realize that will lead to interminable one-upmanship. I mean, maybe it is necessary after what they did to Garland. But they sure as hell are going to come up with something newer and nastier the next time around. And then the Dems will. So it goes...
 
Just as long as people realize that will lead to interminable one-upmanship. I mean, maybe it is necessary after what they did to Garland. But they sure as hell are going to come up with something newer and nastier the next time around. And then the Dems will. So it goes...
It's either that, or learn to accept that Republicans can and will do, whatever John Roberts says they can do.

If you don't like that then blame the Democratic party for not using WMD's for Garland.
 
False. I could say, put YOUR view into action (again - what do you mean again, you got your corporatist candidate with Hillary in 2016) and you give trump another four years - both to show how easy it is to say, AND because it's a lot more true about you. First of all, this isn't only about what the country currently wants - it's about what the country needs. And the biggest threat we have to our country and our democracy is plutocracy, and we need to battle it. The issue of what the country wants is part of the question - and the country supports Bernie's policies. And you are ignoring the issues of Democratic turnout - getting more of the Democrats who don't vote to do so, which Bernie does and your candidates do not - and voter passion, not to mention Bernie's crossover appeal to independents (he got twice as many as Hillary) and even trump voters (many trump voters would have voted for Bernie, but not Hillary). The center doesn't get CRAP done. It does nothing but sit in office while plutocracy continues to gain wealth and power and destroy our democracy. Saying they 'get things done' is propaganda and a lie - as is the word 'radical' for progressive policies. Healthcare and education are not "radical", our record inequality and plutocracy are radical.

The progressive budget balances the budget faster than the Republican, the Democratic, or the actual budgets. Attacking a more fair distribution of wealth in the country with the claim that there isn't 'a way to pay for it' is another propaganda lie. Their policies all show how they'll pay for it. You can't attack the goal, so you attack a straw man lie. Nit-picking. It's a good program that's an improvement over the current situation.

Lies. You need to get informed - giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just aren't informed, rather than dishonest.


Give me a president who is trying to get good policies and has a hard time over a president who gets bad policies.

You are everything that's wrong with the modern left, buddy. Anger, spittle, false accusations, all against people who might otherwise be willing to listen to you, combined with that dangerous assurance that you are absolutely correct in everything. Think a Trumpist is going to be more likely to listen to you or something? :lol:

I resent the chop-and-snipe model - I'm not copy/pasting/arranging twenty different quote boxes for one damn post - so you only deserve a few brief retorts:

- You keep saying "your candidates" but you have no idea who "my candidates" might be. (Clue: Buttgieg is the only one I'm particularly happy about).

- You vastly overestimate the popularity of Bernie's policies ("the country supports". Right. That's why he can't ever get the Dem nomination. Because the entire country supports his policies. Right).

- "Saying they 'get things done' is propaganda and a lie" (along with many other dishonest accusations of lying). Because presidents like Clinton didn't get anything done? Because Obama didn't get Obamacare and a stimulus passed? Because Obama's generally centrist governing style is why he didn't get many policy initiatives done after that, rather than the GOP push to "block everything and make him a one term president?" :roll:

You should consider the possibility that the reason you keep accusing me of "lies" is psychological projection. That or you are just entering adulthood and have little in the way of a working understanding of the last seventy years of America history. Yes, centrists get more things done for the painfully ****ing obvious reason that the extremists at either end of the spectrum can't even convince the majority of their half of the spectrum, and precisely none of the other 'side'. That was an incredibly stupid thing for you to call a lie. Just, mind-numbingly stupid.

So, whatever. Give someone else an uber-left rant. I want politicians with actual solutions, not pie-in-the-sky dreams that feel good but end up going nowhere.

How to not get your post read, which it was not. Keep up the animosity and it'll be more than that.

You repeatedly accuse me of lying. You call me dishonest. You edit out almost all of my post to make it look like I didn't actually respond with an argument. Then you close out your "I'm running away" post with a vague threat. And I'm the one with animosity?

:shock:
 
I prefer Warren because I think she's a lot more pragmatic. Bernie is a real-life socialist. He doesn't call himself a Social Democrat. He calls himself a Democratic Socialist. A true Democratic Socialist believes that eventually, the end goal is a socialist society. But Bernie is very evasive about his socialist beliefs.

Bernie misuses the term Democratic Socialism. He's not evasive at all. He clearly explains his views, which are a light version of Democratic Socialism - Scandanavia is his model, his policies are about healthcare, education, the climate and less inequality. He's not a "real-life socialist". You're wrong. Get informed.

I like Bernie. I think he's very genuine and has the interests of people at heart. But I worry that he's too much of an ideologue. He believes that capitalism has to be replaced. I believe that we must make incremental changes to address problems without consideration of ideology.

He does not thing capitalism needs to be replaced. Find one quote saying that. He's for attacking the harmful parts of capitalism, like destroying the climate and underpaying workers. Look, let's see if you can make just a little effort to get informed. Here's his speech laying out his views:

The Left’s Failure to Envision a World Without Capitalism | The New Republic

Though many now believe that capitalism should end, this doesn’t make it any more likely—not even if Senator Bernie Sanders becomes president.

The Vermont senator made that clear with a speech on Wednesday whose very title proves the limits of his revolution: “How Democratic Socialism Is the Only Way to Defeat Oligarchy.” He did not denounce capitalism itself, but “unfettered capitalism” specifically, and even used “socialism” as a sort of epithet.

Oligarchy is his (and our, if you have any sense) enemy, not all of capitalism. Parts of capitalism are our enemy - if you aren't against, say, big tobacco paying off Republicans to prevent anti-smoking legislation, you're wrong.

You don't seem to understand the radical advance of plutocracy in our country the last 40 years. Here, let me put part of it in picture for for you:

share-of-total-us-income-tippy-top-19193-2015-768x424.png


Or maybe one for the last 40 years:

inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png


That's the problem. What do you mean by 'incremental change'? We need a lot of change to counter the massive change we've had toward plutocracy - and nothing Bernie is pushing is excessive. Healthcare. Education. What the hell is the problem?

Bernie is just as "pragmatic" as Warren. I'm tired of the word "pragmatic" - which is a propaganda lie to attack the progressive policies - and surprised to see you use it so wrongly.
 
You repeatedly accuse me of lying. You call me dishonest. You edit out almost all of my post to make it look like I didn't actually respond with an argument. Then you close out your "I'm running away" post with a vague threat. And I'm the one with animosity?

Posting lies; you did. I said the opposite, that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are NOT dishonest - making your claim I said you are, a lie. I didn't edit out your post to make it look like you didn't respond, I clearly said the reason was the content of the first line. This post is strike two.
 
If you don't like that then blame the Democratic party for not using WMD's for Garland.

I do. Republicans have now removed the filibuster for Supreme Court nominees so that they could pack that also.
 
Posting lies; you did. I said the opposite, that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are NOT dishonest - making your claim I said you are, a lie. I didn't edit out your post to make it look like you didn't respond, I clearly said the reason was the content of the first line. This post is strike two.

"Strike two"? I don't even want to know who you think you are, but that's really something. Go ahead and do whatever it is you're vaguely threatening to do on a "strike three."

I've already got enough deplorables squawking at me, lying about what I said, flinging their poo. I don't need a fringe progressive joining in.
 
And then Trump gets a second term.

Bernie will never run a third party candidacy that splits the Democratic vote IMO and as he's said - though some Democrats who are clueless think he will and attack him like he will.
 
I'm fine with any solution, as long as there is a solution. If Democrats get a majority and don't fix the courts, then they deserve to be out of power forever after that.

I want them to fix it, but no, they don't deserve to be out of power.
 
Well, as I see it, it's like we're entering WWII and you've decided only ONE charismatic general can win the war, and if anyone doesn't support that one general, he's a Nazi sympathizer!!!@!!@!.

Which is more of your straw man. But yes, if I do think only one of the generals on the list can defeat Hitler, I will say it's important we pick him, and that in my opinion you are mistake to support one who will only let Hitler/plutocracy continue to gain ground. And I don't think only Bernie is a great choice; I think he's the best choice, though.

Bernie isn't a savior

That's where I stop reading. You have exceed your straw man limit.
 
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