Why do people support Warren over Bernie?

Redress said:

75 % insane is a whole lot better than 200 % insane.

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Some who calls themself "very liberal" is spouting idiocy that Warren is 75% insane and Bernie is 200% insane?

Middleground said:

Hell, I like them both. But I like Warren better because of her passion and her ability to get things done. She also has a way to make people feel comfortable and explain her positions because of her teaching background. She is also smart as ****. To me a Warren/Sanders ticket is about as good as it gets.

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I think it's good to remember that the whole "fauxcahontas" thing was all they could find to try to silence her when she was calling for prosecution of the criminals involved in the housing crash and regulations to make sure it never happens again in a way that spoke to folks of all ideologies.

What she was saying was resonating across party lines. And too much money has been spent making sure our side stays on our side and doesn't listen to the other.

She had to go down.

Pretty weak sauce "bullet". But evidently it's all they could find and massive repetition worked.

Winston said:

Yeah, the establishment of the CFPB is a jewell in her record, she gets points for that. I just think the time for half-measures is over. In negotiations you have to whack the overton window way far left and make people come closer to you. If you start negotiating with Republicans and Centrists from the point of a centrist they're just gonna claw you farther right than what you campaigned on.

Reminder: In a time of unified Democratic government control the centrists and Republicans still prevented Democrats from including a public option into the ACA.

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Parliamentary norms prevented the ACA from passing. If Democrats allow a filibuster to stymie their agenda the next time they control Congress, their base will be furious. And Warren gets that, which is why she's called for abolishing the filibuster.

The last three years have demonstrated that anybody foolish enough to try to negotiate with Republicans doesn't deserve to be in government.

Craig234 said:

The Democratic party has a serious problem, and calling for unity does not solve it. It's half 'Republican light', slightly less than Republicans plutocrats, corporatists, who go by 'moderate' and 'centrist' and 'blue dog'; and half progressives, who understand the country has taken a wrong turn since Reagan to plutocracy, and needs far more than another Clinton/Obama/Republican-lite presidency.

That we have a historic opportunity to overcome the overwhelmingly powerful interests for a once in a generation chance to elect the leader we need who is not Republican or Republican-lite, and how important it is we get a leader who will fight plutocracy, as uphill a battle as it is.

I *love* Bernie for his divisiveness, not because I want a divided party, but because the problem is the people who oppose Bernie, not the fact there is a division. There is and needs to be a war in the party which side will win, and Bernie is simply fighting for progressives to win that fight. Whichever side loses needs to then unite, just as Bernie strongly supported Hillary in 2016.

What you are calling for is simply for progressives to surrender to the corporatists in the name of unity - a disastrous suggestion that dooms our country to plutocracy. It's like saying Lincoln should have given the south what it wanted in the name of unity, instead of fighting for the country to defeat the confederacy and then unite as a nation.

I could even say it's like saying the Democrats should just surrender and give the Republicans what they want, in the name of American unity. Bernie is fighting for what we need, against the part of the party that doesn't want what we need, only a little. The progressives need to win control of the party, The time for unity is after the primaries.

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This is what I'm talking about.

Winston said:

Yeah, the establishment of the CFPB is a jewell in her record, she gets points for that. I just think the time for half-measures is over. In negotiations you have to whack the overton window way far left and make people come closer to you. If you start negotiating with Republicans and Centrists from the point of a centrist they're just gonna claw you farther right than what you campaigned on.

Reminder: In a time of unified Democratic government control the centrists and Republicans still prevented Democrats from including a public option into the ACA.

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Hear, hear.

The centrist Democrats in a way are our country's biggest threat, threatening to keep the Democrats from a united progressive campaign. If Bernie is nominated, he'll even appeal to much of the center and even Republicans and destroy trump, in a way that centrist Democrats like Hillary and Biden can't.

Cardinal said:

I think her consumer protection record speaks for itself.

I've been a Bernie guy my whole life and will always like him, but frankly I'm a little tired of the way he divides the party. The Republican Party is for all intents and purposes 100% united (I don't consider the three candidates running against him in a Primary that won't happen to be a serious sign of party fracturing). The Democratic Party needs to be just as united.

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Nah that won’t happen. Democrats are too busy spitting and yelling and screaming if you say one bad thing about the candidate they love.

I understand loving a candidate, and I understand loyalty. More importantly, though, is getting our country back. As much as I dislike some of the candidates, I would vote for almost any of them, as opposed to pulling a fit and staying home because my candidate didn’t get the nomination.

Winston said:

Mr rebuttal to this, Trump is already calling every Democrat a socialist, and they called Obama a Marxist, called their own healthcare plan (Romneycare) socialist. They always scream about socialism, and they already scare those low information voters. The only way that socialist **** works is with low info voters, and the GOP already scares them and has been for years, way before Sanders.



It also bothered me her playing politics in 2016. It demonstrated to me, she doesn't have the political courage to stand up to corporate America, if she couldn't A. run against the Clinton machine in 2016 herself, or endorse the candidate she agrees with more (on paper anyway), Bernie Sanders. Dropping the ball like that bothered me. It just made me think she lacks the political courage to fight the most difficult battle of our lifetimes. The one against Big Pharma, Big Oil, Military Defense Contractors, etc.





I'll take a ham sandwich over Trump. I've always been a 3rd party voter, but 2020, I'm voting Dems no matter who they nominate.

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Just wait until Putin rolls out his stuff on Bernie if he gets on the ticket. The Soviet archives are full of it. You do know that he honeymooned in the USSR don't you? Their is a reason Trump rarely says a bad word about Bernie...he is his dream opponent. Even on this board most Trumpists prefer Bernie. Partly because the Russian trolls did so well using him against Hillary and getting his supporters to vote for Trump or stay home.

Rexedgar said:

Wasn’t it the second debate where the moderator asked about free health care for anyone crossing the southern border and after they all looked around, all ten raised their hands?

In a free market, capitalistic system there has to be reward for work and consequences for sand-bagging. Why would anyone bother to try to get ahead if all are rewarded in a same manner? Those people that are really in need should be seen to; but whomever calls the balls and strikes has got their work cut out for them....

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That's simplying things. As for 'free market', that let the person who had the epipen jack the price of from 100 to 750 bucks, just because he could.

Cardinal said:

I think her consumer protection record speaks for itself.

I've been a Bernie guy my whole life and will always like him, but frankly I'm a little tired of the way he divides the party. The Republican Party is for all intents and purposes 100% united (I don't consider the three candidates running against him in a Primary that won't happen to be a serious sign of party fracturing). The Democratic Party needs to be just as united.

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Yeah, he'll not get my vote this time based on running through the convention in 2016 knowing he was going to lose, and then all the whining afterwards about how unfair it was that the Democratic establishment backed a lifelong Democrat versus someone who's only a "Democrat" when he wants to freeload off the party infrastructure, then leaves as soon as that purpose is used up.

Bottom line is Bernie got nearly 4 million fewer votes than Hillary, and lost. If he wanted to be a Democrat, he could have accepted that loss, but he didn't and his supporters sure as hell didn't. So this time I'm voting for a Democrat.... I like Bernie in a lot of ways, but I won't vote for him again.

Cardinal said:

This is what I'm talking about.

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Not much of a response. OK, you go demand that Bernie surrender to centrists for unity, and that Democrats surrender to Republicans for unity, and hell, let's have the US surrender to China for unity, and just have a world of tyrannical plutocracy. Let's not have any arguing about a need for progressive government and freedom, that could be bad.

Superfly said:

Nah that won’t happen. Democrats are too busy spitting and yelling and screaming if you say one bad thing about the candidate they love.

I understand loving a candidate, and I understand loyalty. More importantly, though, is getting our country back. As much as I dislike some of the candidates, I would vote for almost any of them, as opposed to pulling a fit and staying home because my candidate didn’t get the nomination.

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I wonder how they feel about their decision while watching McConnell ram 150 lifetime court seats through the Senate.

Craig234 said:

Reasons:

1. People who simply prefer a woman over a man.

2. People who hate Bernie from 2016 (Hillary fanatics and people who have fallen for anti-Bernie propaganda).

3. People who want a younger president.

4. People who view Bernie as 'a socialist' (Warren says she is NOT a Democratic Socialist, but a capitalist)

5. People who don't really want the progressive side, but think Biden won't win and it's either Bernie or Elizabeth, and prefer Elizabeth; including party loyalists who appreciate Warren's reaching out to the party and resent Bernie's criticisms of the party and remaining an independent technically in the Senate.

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You don't have to be either one of the bolded to object to how he handled the 2016 election. I voted for him in the primary, still like him, and still think he was wrong then and in the years since, and won't vote for him this time.

JasperL said:

Yeah, he'll not get my vote this time based on running through the convention in 2016 knowing he was going to lose, and then all the whining afterwards about how unfair it was that the Democratic establishment backed a lifelong Democrat versus someone who's only a "Democrat" when he wants to freeload off the party infrastructure, then leaves as soon as that purpose is used up.

Bottom line is Bernie got nearly 4 million fewer votes than Hillary, and lost. If he wanted to be a Democrat, he could have accepted that loss, but he didn't and his supporters sure as hell didn't. So this time I'm voting for a Democrat.... I like Bernie in a lot of ways, but I won't vote for him again.

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Republicans can really take a vacation, their lies aren't needed because we have Democrats so good at spreading false things for them.

Bernie did NOTHING WRONG. It's nothing but revisionist history, delusional hatred, a lack of caring about the issues and need for the right policies, putting misguided emotion ahead of policy.

The lies are so disgusting, I don't care to even bother correcting them yet again.

Go vote for trump. If the best Democrats can do are voters who have the views you do, we don't deserve a good president.

Winston said:

Just curious, polls have them about tied for second place.

Curious what Warren is offering that Bernie isn't? To me Warren has a blind spot on foreign policy, where Bernie does not. And she's willing to play ball with the corporate interests that Bernie has vowed to fight.

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Some of it has to do with Bernie's terrible branding.
For the last seventy years, Americans have lived through The Red Scare, the John Birch Society, HUAC, McCarthyism, COINTELPRO and a whole host of other red-baiting monstrosities and abuses of power which have conditioned Americans to recoil at the word "socialism" even as many of us grew up in the era of The New Deal, which was a set of minor quasi-socialist tweaks which supercharged middle class consumerism and revitalized the economy.

Nevertheless, even as we enjoyed our "social democracy" in economics, we were taught to fear the word "socialism".
The USSR claimed "socialism" in their name, the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" (USSR/CCCP) and so we became accustomed to associating socialism with communism.

Bernie, on the other hand, was really an old school social democrat, which is, as he says, a lot more like a Canadian or a Scandanavian. But it doesn't matter because each and every time he utters the word "socialism", it elicits this reaction among many Americans:



Bernie has not actually BEEN a real socialist since Day One on Capitol Hill. He's really just a New Deal liberal Democrat like FDR.
Liz agrees with maybe 85 to 90 percent of Bernie's platform, but she labels herself a capitalist, and avoids use of "the S word".

She's prescribing similar medicine to Bernie but she's making it appear a little bit less nasty tasting.
She does brand marketing better than Bernie does.
Plus, unlike Bernie, a lifetime liberal, Liz came over FROM the conservative side. It's not just that she believes in bipartisan ideas and efforts, she herself IS bipartisan.
Bernie is glad to work in bipartisan fashion with anybody, and he does a magnificent job but Liz has the better bonafides.

Bernie ran 2016 with the parking brake on, insisting he is not a Democrat, refusing to acknowledge that POTUS elections are a two-party football game like the Superbowl. He tried to be a SF 49-er jumping into a game between the Redskins and the Cowboys. Football, and POTUS elections, do not work that way.

I still love Bernie but I don't expect to see him in the race come next March.

JasperL said:

Yeah, he'll not get my vote this time based on running through the convention in 2016 knowing he was going to lose, and then all the whining afterwards about how unfair it was that the Democratic establishment backed a lifelong Democrat versus someone who's only a "Democrat" when he wants to freeload off the party infrastructure, then leaves as soon as that purpose is used up.

Bottom line is Bernie got nearly 4 million fewer votes than Hillary, and lost. If he wanted to be a Democrat, he could have accepted that loss, but he didn't and his supporters sure as hell didn't. So this time I'm voting for a Democrat.... I like Bernie in a lot of ways, but I won't vote for him again.

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I had to explain to my wife that superdelegates didn't cost Bernie the Primary in 2016. Don't get me wrong, superdelegates are an awful look, but their existence was allowed to tarnish the results of the Primary, and Bernie did nothing to fix the record. Bernie was one brick in a wall of bricks that led to Trump's Presidency.

Winston said:

Yeah, the establishment of the CFPB is a jewell in her record, she gets points for that. I just think the time for half-measures is over. In negotiations you have to whack the overton window way far left and make people come closer to you. If you start negotiating with Republicans and Centrists from the point of a centrist they're just gonna claw you farther right than what you campaigned on.

Reminder: In a time of unified Democratic government control the centrists and Republicans still prevented Democrats from including a public option into the ACA.

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Right, but when you have 59 Democrats, an independent, and then only 60 for a very short window of time, so that 60th vote, that most conservative Democrat has the veto pen, how do you jam through FAR left policy?

Anyway, lots of people say it all the time, but the focus on President is IMO boneheaded. Whoever gets elected will sign whatever can get through Congress, and so the focus really has to be on electing a whole bunch of Democrats up and down the line, at every level. This is where the GOP is much smarter. We care about President while the GOP captured a bunch of states, got them gerrymandered, appointed a slew of right wing judges, that locked in GOP majorities in Congress, etc. I hope the big money guys on the left are working smarter than just throwing big money at President.

JasperL said:

Yeah, he'll not get my vote this time based on running through the convention in 2016 knowing he was going to lose, and then all the whining afterwards about how unfair it was that the Democratic establishment backed a lifelong Democrat versus someone who's only a "Democrat" when he wants to freeload off the party infrastructure, then leaves as soon as that purpose is used up.

Bottom line is Bernie got nearly 4 million fewer votes than Hillary, and lost. If he wanted to be a Democrat, he could have accepted that loss, but he didn't and his supporters sure as hell didn't. So this time I'm voting for a Democrat.... I like Bernie in a lot of ways, but I won't vote for him again.

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all i got to say is the way is forwards not backwards. If I spent my life punishing people for perceived sleights against my party, I would be a bitter man.

Also more Hillary Supporters defected to 3rd Party voting in 2008 in obstinance to Obama than Bernie voters to 3rd party. It just sounds like a bunch of mainstream myths. Basically what I care about is mitigating global warming, campaign finance reform, stopping the wars, medicare for-all and free college. I would put those priorities above any instinct I had for political punishment. But, I don't even believe in the 2 party system, so what Bernie does or doesn't do, in regards to fealty to the party does not bother me at all.

JasperL said:

You don't have to be either one of the bolded to object to how he handled the 2016 election. I voted for him in the primary, still like him, and still think he was wrong then and in the years since, and won't vote for him this time.

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Bernie did nothing wrong. You pretty clearly have no idea about the difference between the progressives and the corporatists in the part, and the battle for which will lead the party.

Do you have any idea that Hillary had declared her intention to keep fighting Obama after she couldn't win? That was only cut off because a private meeting between only her and Obama was arranged at Dianne Feinstein's home, at which they struck a still-secret deal where she agreed to support Obama.

More of Bernie's supporters voted for Hillary, than Hillary's voters supported Obama. Bernie campaigned harder than anyone else for Hillary in the general election - a lot harder than Hillary campaigned for Obama.

Bernie did not immediately just support Hillary, because he was fighting for the progressive wing, the nearly half of the party who supported him, to have its policies represented in the party platform - it's a negotiation. Your hatred is uninformed and harmful.

You're still spewing garbage about Bernie 'freeloading' and 'leaving the party', as if he hasn't spent decades caucusing with the Democrats 100% of the time, as if he's not in the Democratic Party leadership in the Senate, as if he hasn't served as a committee chairman selected by the Democrats, as if he hasn't been the frickin most popular Democrat in the country. Progressives need to defeat your positions.

Winston said:

Mr rebuttal to this, Trump is already calling every Democrat a socialist, and they called Obama a Marxist, called their own healthcare plan (Romneycare) socialist. They always scream about socialism, and they already scare those low information voters. The only way that socialist **** works is with low info voters, and the GOP already scares them and has been for years, way before Sanders.

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This.

Republicans will call whoever the nominee is a communist that's out to get small town America.

We can't help people in rural and small town America think for themselves. They are voting Republican, even if we have Jesus on the ticket.

If our strategy doesn't include assuming everyone who supported Trump once will support him again, we will risk throwing another election away.

JasperL said:

Right, but when you have 59 Democrats, an independent, and then only 60 for a very short window of time, so that 60th vote, that most conservative Democrat has the veto pen, how do you jam through FAR left policy?

Anyway, lots of people say it all the time, but the focus on President is IMO boneheaded. Whoever gets elected will sign whatever can get through Congress, and so the focus really has to be on electing a whole bunch of Democrats up and down the line, at every level. This is where the GOP is much smarter. We care about President while the GOP captured a bunch of states, got them gerrymandered, appointed a slew of right wing judges, that locked in GOP majorities in Congress, etc. I hope the big money guys on the left are working smarter than just throwing big money at President.

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That's where forcing a vote to make DC and Puerto Rico states is important.

With both of those in the union, we can have four extra Democratic senators, which would make getting to 60 more possible when we have blue wave elections.

JasperL said:

Right, but when you have 59 Democrats, an independent, and then only 60 for a very short window of time, so that 60th vote, that most conservative Democrat has the veto pen, how do you jam through FAR left policy?

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The ACA was NOT far left policy. People including you have no idea what words mean. But as you imply - Democrats had real control for about two weeks, after the Republicans blocked Al Franken, after Scott Brown replaced Ted Kennedy, etc.

JasperL said:

Right, but when you have 59 Democrats, an independent, and then only 60 for a very short window of time, so that 60th vote, that most conservative Democrat has the veto pen, how do you jam through FAR left policy?

Anyway, lots of people say it all the time, but the focus on President is IMO boneheaded. Whoever gets elected will sign whatever can get through Congress, and so the focus really has to be on electing a whole bunch of Democrats up and down the line, at every level. This is where the GOP is much smarter. We care about President while the GOP captured a bunch of states, got them gerrymandered, appointed a slew of right wing judges, that locked in GOP majorities in Congress, etc. I hope the big money guys on the left are working smarter than just throwing big money at President.

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Agreed Republican strategists are way better at politics than Democratic ones. How do they have so much power, with an overwhelming demographic disadvantage? Chicanery.

As for how do you get Joe Lieberman to shut the hell up and support your political agenda on an actual tangible, real left wing reform that would help Americans out and make it so the GOP can't say **** about "Obamacare circling the toilet", twist some arms is my guess.

Craig234 said:

Republicans can really take a vacation, their lies aren't needed because we have Democrats so good at spreading false things for them.

Bernie did NOTHING WRONG. It's nothing but revisionist history, delusional hatred, a lack of caring about the issues and need for the right policies, putting misguided emotion ahead of policy.

The lies are so disgusting, I don't care to even bother correcting them yet again.

Go vote for trump. If the best Democrats can do are voters who have the views you do, we don't deserve a good president.

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This is an illustration of my concerns with Bernie. You're either with him or, F*** you!! I voted for Bernie in the 2016 primary. Maybe you and I just disagree on how he handled 2016 and since. If he's the nominee, I'll vote for him easily. I won't vote for him in the primary.

But to you guys, the Bernie crowd, that makes me a traitor and a stealth Republican, and I can just go to hell. It's like you tried to prove my point.

Superfly said:

Nah that won’t happen. Democrats are too busy spitting and yelling and screaming if you say one bad thing about the candidate they love.

I understand loving a candidate, and I understand loyalty. More importantly, though, is getting our country back. As much as I dislike some of the candidates, I would vote for almost any of them, as opposed to pulling a fit and staying home because my candidate didn’t get the nomination.

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I've said before that I'd vote for a head of lettuce over Trump at this point, and god damn it, I mean it. :2wave:

The bottom line is that whoever wins this primary will have earned it. This is the most diverse field ever, with all kinds of views and backgrounds represented. All of these candidates have been given ample to sell their message to the public, so there's no excuses to the loser this time around.

JasperL said:

This is an illustration of my concerns with Bernie. You're either with him or, F*** you!! I voted for Bernie in the 2016 primary. Maybe you and I just disagree on how he handled 2016 and since. If he's the nominee, I'll vote for him easily. I won't vote for him in the primary.

But to you guys, the Bernie crowd, that makes me a traitor and a stealth Republican, and I can just go to hell. It's like you tried to prove my point.

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No, it's your revisionist history, your misguided attacks on the progressives, and your putting words in my mouth I didn't say that are the problem. Your version of my statements about you just show how confused you are.

It's like we're talking about entering WWII, and you're saying you won't vote to fight Hitler because you heard a Democrat say something racist about Germans, and you aren't even getting that right. But you have Jewish friends!! So it's all good. You don't appear to have a clue about the issues the nation is facing with our biggest problem of plutocracy. Who cares? Elect another corporatist Democrat and oppose our best choice.