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Thread: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

  1. #131
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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius68 View Post
    Well, no, because the owners still have the profit. The question becomes how is that wealth created.
    Like i said, it is not uncapitalistic for the owners of a particular firm to be the workers.
    Owning the profits is not a specific idea that belongs only to capitalism. Communism also acknowledges ownership of the profit. The difference is that with capitalism the owner does not specifically have to be the one creating the wealth. Although as you have said that does not always have to be the case.

    Wealth is always create by the same method. The worker creates wealth. Sometimes in a small business that worker can also be the owner.

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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    So I am sure it is just a coincidence that the countries that implemented capitalist ideals developed a strong middle class. Or how China since instituting capitalist ideas have brought millions out of poverty. And the same with Vietnam. Yeah it all just a coincidence. Your hate for capitalism is blinding you to reality.

    Very few people think that just hard work and effort will make them rich and powerful. Rags to riches is a just a saying. Smarty people understand that not everything is meant to be taken literally. Besides smart people know that it actually takes intelligence as well as making smart decisions. And either way it is a lot more possible to become rich in American then any communist crap hole. And none of this really has any thing to do with what we were talking about and it's rather obvious you keep playing games like this because it is you who is desperate to make communism not look like the horrible joke that it is.

    So how about you just tell us more how the problem is just no country had tried the right version of communism yet and that's why we haven't seen a single successful communist country yet.
    Capitalism does not create wealth. It is just a theory. It can not create anything. Industrialisation is what brought those countries out of poverty and created wealth.

    Nor have you seen a single capitalist country be successful as there has never been one. The countries that are successful use a mix of socialism and capitalism.

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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius68 View Post
    Well no, the owner (the capitalist) has a right to the profit, not the "rich" (though of course the two can be the same). A co-op proposes to do the same.
    Of course the role of the capitalist in production in a capitalist society-- organising the lines of production, risking existing capital, needs to be performed by somebody in the socialist community. It's difficult to see how the socialist society does this is, and cling to is claim of being a socialist society.
    Not quite the same as the owner under capitalism may have absolutely nothing to do with the business except have the ownership of that business. Where as a coop the owners of the business are those who work within the business.

    It really is not that much different. the economics remain the same as does the organisation of a business. The difference is in the sharing of the profits. The workers have control of that rather than someone who may or may not have any investment in the business other than the profits they reap.

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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by NWRatCon View Post
    I've read this post several times, and I have yet to find a word or sentence that has anything to do with the topic. Oh, maybe one. You did mention Marx. Oh wait, no you didn't. My bad.

    The OP:
    Every single sentence in my post was responding to a post by another poster. How about you whine to him.
    Or you could just stip pretending your a mod. Either way I really don't care.
    President Franklin Roosevelt eulogized a fallen American Soldier by saying, “He stands in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die [that] freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it he lives--in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Not quite the same as the owner under capitalism may have absolutely nothing to do with the business except have the ownership of that business. Where as a coop the owners of the business are those who work within the business.

    It really is not that much different. the economics remain the same as does the organisation of a business. The difference is in the sharing of the profits. The workers have control of that rather than someone who may or may not have any investment in the business other than the profits they reap.
    But there is also the risk factor. If the business goes under, the workers in a capitalist society just go to work for another company. There is minimal risk. The person who absolutely loses their shirt is the owner.

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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    The OP is right in pointing out that Marx asked some very good questions and pointed out some truths that are very important.

    Sadly, aside from that he was wrong about almost everything.

    He thought that capitalism created alienation from work, when it fact alienation is more due to technology advances and industrialization. In a pre-industrial society, work is more closely linked to its product; you plant a seed, you take care of the plant, you see the loaf of bread. In an industrialized society, work is complex and very few workers can see the finished product of their work and its value as being their creation. In the twentieth century good management has looked for ways to connect workers to their enterprises and draw out the full human value of their work. Bad management has ignored the issue.

    Marx thought that industrialization would make conditions much worse for workers. In fact, working conditions have improved dramatically ever since the Industrial Revolution by a number of vectors (unions, government legislation, better management theory...) that have nothing at all to do with revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat.

    Marx, like Nietsche, deserves much credit for recognizing an issue/problem. Neither of them had sensible solutions for the problems they saw.

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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by ataraxia View Post
    But there is also the risk factor. If the business goes under, the workers in a capitalist society just go to work for another company. There is minimal risk. The person who absolutely loses their shirt is the owner.
    I've seen remarkably few shirtless "owners".
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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    I was going to pull out some particular points for emphasis and response, but, realized I mostly just agreed. Well said.
    Quote Originally Posted by vanceen View Post
    The OP is right in pointing out that Marx asked some very good questions and pointed out some truths that are very important.

    Sadly, aside from that he was wrong about almost everything.

    He thought that capitalism created alienation from work, when it fact alienation is more due to technology advances and industrialization. In a pre-industrial society, work is more closely linked to its product; you plant a seed, you take care of the plant, you see the loaf of bread. In an industrialized society, work is complex and very few workers can see the finished product of their work and its value as being their creation. In the twentieth century good management has looked for ways to connect workers to their enterprises and draw out the full human value of their work. Bad management has ignored the issue.

    Marx thought that industrialization would make conditions much worse for workers. In fact, working conditions have improved dramatically ever since the Industrial Revolution by a number of vectors (unions, government legislation, better management theory...) that have nothing at all to do with revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat.

    Marx, like Nietsche, deserves much credit for recognizing an issue/problem. Neither of them had sensible solutions for the problems they saw.
    Oh, except for one point. Capitalism, by its very nature, alienates workers from their "product". Even more, though, it alienates the owners. Owner's stake and risk is limited to their "investment". With the exception of entrepreneurs and small business owners (not minor exceptions, mind you), the typical "capitalist" couldn't care less about the quality, value, or safety of the "product" as long as it makes them money. That, includes, by the way, myself and anyone with a 401(k), IRA, or any mutual funds. That alienation is not insignificant and drives a lot of bad corporate behavior. No one is minding the store (which is why, all too often, government has to step in).
    Last edited by NWRatCon; 09-18-19 at 01:18 PM.
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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by soylentgreen View Post
    Owning the profits is not a specific idea that belongs only to capitalism. Communism also acknowledges ownership of the profit. The difference is that with capitalism the owner does not specifically have to be the one creating the wealth. Although as you have said that does not always have to be the case.

    Wealth is always create by the same method. The worker creates wealth. Sometimes in a small business that worker can also be the owner.
    In capitalism, the capitalist is the person who organizes and directs production in such a fashion that he or she thinks will result in profit for the firm.
    Who performs this role in the socialist society?

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    Re: Karl Marx's ideas about alienation

    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    Every single sentence in my post was responding to a post by another poster.
    I recognized that, but it doesn't make the comment any less valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by braindrain View Post
    Or you could just stip pretending your a mod. Either way I really don't care.
    Gratuitous snark aside, you've demonstrated on numerous occasions your lack of empathy, integrity or fidelity to facts, so I'm not even a little surprised.

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