How progressive are progressives?

progressive:

favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.


It occurred to me recently that progressives are anything but progressive. Let's look at a few of the institutions they support:


1. Public schools. This obsolete institution goes back to the 17th century in the US. The idea here is all kids should be forced to learn the same subjects at the same rate. The kids are picked up in buses and brought to a government building for "education". The only skill they learn is how to memorize test answers. Black kids suffer the worst. For example, out of 13 high schools in Baltimore, a grand total of zero kids were proficient in math.

The damage public schools are doing to the country is long term. Half of the adults in Detroit can't even read. It's safe to say other liberal cities are getting similar results.

Yet progressives love public schools. They love having the state control what kids are taught. They're also a nice way to funnel taxpayer dollars into public unions. Public unions which vote Democratic. The only "reform" any progressive will consider is even more money to the unions, which they claim will improve results. It won't.

2. Labor unions. Another old, archaic model progressives seem to adore. Unions are labor cartels, which artificially raise the price of labor above market rates, and guess what happens when the price of labor goes up? Employers buy less of it. Aside from creating unemployment, they tend to make companies less competitive at best, and completely destroy them at worst. See Detroit. Then there is the epic amount of corruption, organized crime, violence, etc which have always been associated with unions.

3. The Post office. Good Lord, talk about obsolete. Here a government "worker" walks around the neighborhood putting paper envelopes into mailboxes. Most of it's junk mail. I did some research. It takes 100 million trees to create the 80 billion pieces of junk mail per year, which then goes right into landfills. Does that sound "progressive"? I thought they cared about climate change and the environment? Apparently not, because they love the Post Office.

4. Socialism. Good grief. Young, modern progressive are looking to make the world a better place with ... socialism. The most ass-backwards way to produce goods and services. All of the signs show the future is pointing towards decentralization, yet progressives yearn for central planning. Hasn't the "party of science" ever opened a history book?

5. Islam. Yes, progressives luv Islam. It must be how Islam respects women, after all, many progressives are feminists. Or perhaps it's Islam's tolerance for gay people?

Hey progressives, get yourself a new name, cause you ain't progressive.

aociswundumho said:

progressive:

favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.


It occurred to me recently that progressives are anything but progressive. Let's look at a few of the institutions they support:


1. Public schools. This obsolete institution goes back to the 17th century in the US. The idea here is all kids should be forced to learn the same subjects at the same rate. The kids are picked up in buses and brought to a government building for "education". The only skill they learn is how to memorize test answers. Black kids suffer the worst. For example, out of 13 high schools in Baltimore, a grand total of zero kids were proficient in math.

The damage public schools are doing to the country is long term. Half of the adults in Detroit can't even read. It's safe to say other liberal cities are getting similar results.

Yet progressives love public schools. They love having the state control what kids are taught. They're also a nice way to funnel taxpayer dollars into public unions. Public unions which vote Democratic. The only "reform" any progressive will consider is even more money to the unions, which they claim will improve results. It won't.

2. Labor unions. Another old, archaic model progressives seem to adore. Unions are labor cartels, which artificially raise the price of labor above market rates, and guess what happens when the price of labor goes up? Employers buy less of it. Aside from creating unemployment, they tend to make companies less competitive at best, and completely destroy them at worst. See Detroit. Then there is the epic amount of corruption, organized crime, violence, etc which have always been associated with unions.

3. The Post office. Good Lord, talk about obsolete. Here a government "worker" walks around the neighborhood putting paper envelopes into mailboxes. Most of it's junk mail. I did some research. It takes 100 million trees to create the 80 billion pieces of junk mail per year, which then goes right into landfills. Does that sound "progressive"? I thought they cared about climate change and the environment? Apparently not, because they love the Post Office.

4. Socialism. Good grief. Young, modern progressive are looking to make the world a better place with ... socialism. The most ass-backwards way to produce goods and services. All of the signs show the future is pointing towards decentralization, yet progressives yearn for central planning. Hasn't the "party of science" ever opened a history book?

5. Islam. Yes, progressives luv Islam. It must be how Islam respects women, after all, many progressives are feminists. Or perhaps it's Islam's tolerance for gay people?

Hey progressives, get yourself a new name, cause you ain't progressive.

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Instead of "back to the future" progs seem to favor "forward to the past"

aociswundumho said:

progressive:

favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.


It occurred to me recently that progressives are anything but progressive. Let's look at a few of the institutions they support:


1. Public schools. This obsolete institution goes back to the 17th century in the US. The idea here is all kids should be forced to learn the same subjects at the same rate. The kids are picked up in buses and brought to a government building for "education". The only skill they learn is how to memorize test answers. Black kids suffer the worst. For example, out of 13 high schools in Baltimore, a grand total of zero kids were proficient in math.

The damage public schools are doing to the country is long term. Half of the adults in Detroit can't even read. It's safe to say other liberal cities are getting similar results.

Yet progressives love public schools. They love having the state control what kids are taught. They're also a nice way to funnel taxpayer dollars into public unions. Public unions which vote Democratic. The only "reform" any progressive will consider is even more money to the unions, which they claim will improve results. It won't.

2. Labor unions. Another old, archaic model progressives seem to adore. Unions are labor cartels, which artificially raise the price of labor above market rates, and guess what happens when the price of labor goes up? Employers buy less of it. Aside from creating unemployment, they tend to make companies less competitive at best, and completely destroy them at worst. See Detroit. Then there is the epic amount of corruption, organized crime, violence, etc which have always been associated with unions.

3. The Post office. Good Lord, talk about obsolete. Here a government "worker" walks around the neighborhood putting paper envelopes into mailboxes. Most of it's junk mail. I did some research. It takes 100 million trees to create the 80 billion pieces of junk mail per year, which then goes right into landfills. Does that sound "progressive"? I thought they cared about climate change and the environment? Apparently not, because they love the Post Office.

4. Socialism. Good grief. Young, modern progressive are looking to make the world a better place with ... socialism. The most ass-backwards way to produce goods and services. All of the signs show the future is pointing towards decentralization, yet progressives yearn for central planning. Hasn't the "party of science" ever opened a history book?

5. Islam. Yes, progressives luv Islam. It must be how Islam respects women, after all, many progressives are feminists. Or perhaps it's Islam's tolerance for gay people?

Hey progressives, get yourself a new name, cause you ain't progressive.

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Get yourself a new name cause you ain't conservative.

aociswundumho said:

progressive:

favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.


It occurred to me recently that progressives are anything but progressive. Let's look at a few of the institutions they support:


1. Public schools. This obsolete institution goes back to the 17th century in the US. The idea here is all kids should be forced to learn the same subjects at the same rate. The kids are picked up in buses and brought to a government building for "education". The only skill they learn is how to memorize test answers. Black kids suffer the worst. For example, out of 13 high schools in Baltimore, a grand total of zero kids were proficient in math.

The damage public schools are doing to the country is long term. Half of the adults in Detroit can't even read. It's safe to say other liberal cities are getting similar results.

Yet progressives love public schools. They love having the state control what kids are taught. They're also a nice way to funnel taxpayer dollars into public unions. Public unions which vote Democratic. The only "reform" any progressive will consider is even more money to the unions, which they claim will improve results. It won't.

2. Labor unions. Another old, archaic model progressives seem to adore. Unions are labor cartels, which artificially raise the price of labor above market rates, and guess what happens when the price of labor goes up? Employers buy less of it. Aside from creating unemployment, they tend to make companies less competitive at best, and completely destroy them at worst. See Detroit. Then there is the epic amount of corruption, organized crime, violence, etc which have always been associated with unions.

3. The Post office. Good Lord, talk about obsolete. Here a government "worker" walks around the neighborhood putting paper envelopes into mailboxes. Most of it's junk mail. I did some research. It takes 100 million trees to create the 80 billion pieces of junk mail per year, which then goes right into landfills. Does that sound "progressive"? I thought they cared about climate change and the environment? Apparently not, because they love the Post Office.

4. Socialism. Good grief. Young, modern progressive are looking to make the world a better place with ... socialism. The most ass-backwards way to produce goods and services. All of the signs show the future is pointing towards decentralization, yet progressives yearn for central planning. Hasn't the "party of science" ever opened a history book?

5. Islam. Yes, progressives luv Islam. It must be how Islam respects women, after all, many progressives are feminists. Or perhaps it's Islam's tolerance for gay people?

Hey progressives, get yourself a new name, cause you ain't progressive.

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God Bless you because I can't be bothered with this nonsense.

aociswundumho said:

progressive:

favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.


It occurred to me recently that progressives are anything but progressive. Let's look at a few of the institutions they support:


1. Public schools.

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Public schools are huge progress over an uneducated public that comes without them. Any flaws, caused by right-wing harmful policies like undertaxing and under-supporting them, are fixed by improving them, not by removing them. You frickin use Cato for your argument, a plutocrat propaganda organization that opposes practically public programs.

2. Labor unions. Another old, archaic model progressives seem to adore. Unions are labor cartels, which artificially raise the price of labor above market rates, and guess what happens when the price of labor goes up? Employers buy less of it. Aside from creating unemployment, they tend to make companies less competitive at best, and completely destroy them at worst. See Detroit. Then there is the epic amount of corruption, organized crime, violence, etc which have always been associated with unions.

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That argument is so idiotic, you would be ashamed if you knew enough to know you should be. It's like 'how to argue for gutting workers for children'. It's the classic right-wing idiocy of 'pay workers just enough not to starve, and maybe let a few starve to motivate the rest' mentality. You clearly have nothing to say on the topic.

3. The Post office. Good Lord, talk about obsolete. Here a government "worker" walks around the neighborhood putting paper envelopes into mailboxes. Most of it's junk mail. I did some research. It takes 100 million trees to create the 80 billion pieces of junk mail per year, which then goes right into landfills. Does that sound "progressive"? I thought they cared about climate change and the environment? Apparently not, because they love the Post Office.

Click to expand...

It's true the Post Office's mission has changed over time, the nature of the mail, but let's talk about an actual issue with it. The government passed a bill to require the Post Office to pre-fund *the next 75 years* of their healthcare for their workers - gutting their budget, greatly harming their operation, using the law to attack the agency (the story of the passage of the bill is a bit complicated). What we SHOULD do is to adapt to changes and improve the Post Office - such as adding basic banking functions to Post Offices, as other countries do, and we even have had in the past.

Know the Facts – Campaign for Postal Banking

4. Socialism. Good grief. Young, modern progressive are looking to make the world a better place with ... socialism. The most ass-backwards way to produce goods and services. All of the signs show the future is pointing towards decentralization, yet progressives yearn for central planning. Hasn't the "party of science" ever opened a history book?

Click to expand...

You are clearly among the ignorant right who don't understand the difference between classic/dictionary 'socialism' - the elimination of all private owned goods and services - which no one in the US supports, and the good public policies most of America supports, that Republicans attack as 'socialism'. Not much to discuss when all you have is a straw man, while you defend plutocracy.

5. Islam. Yes, progressives luv Islam. It must be how Islam respects women, after all, many progressives are feminists. Or perhaps it's Islam's tolerance for gay people?

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No, progressives hate the behavior of some Muslims who do those things. Yet, we're also against bigotry, against hate and killing people for that bigotry. Funny how the same people who used bigotry to oppose gay marriage as a political weapon recently, now defend gay rights as a weapon to attack Muslims. We're for freedom of religion - but not freedom for religion ro discriminate wrongly, like the right is for. We don't want to 'ban all Muslims', trump does.

Hey progressives, get yourself a new name, cause you ain't progressive.

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The name is just fine. Conservatives are the ones who need a new name, when you are the party of plutocracy, corruption, oligarchy, debt, fascism, the destruction of the environment for short-term gain and the allowing of harm by powerful interests generally. You can pick from a few - Nihilists, Swamp Dwellers, Deplorables, but I'll suggest simply the very accurate Plutocrats.

Progressivism is a late 19th century invention steeped in "fairness" that emphasizes collectivist, authoritarian solutions to perceived evils of capitalism.

aociswundumho said:

progressive:

favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.


It occurred to me recently that progressives are anything but progressive. Let's look at a few of the institutions they support:


1. Public schools. This obsolete institution goes back to the 17th century in the US. The idea here is all kids should be forced to learn the same subjects at the same rate. The kids are picked up in buses and brought to a government building for "education". The only skill they learn is how to memorize test answers. Black kids suffer the worst. For example, out of 13 high schools in Baltimore, a grand total of zero kids were proficient in math.

The damage public schools are doing to the country is long term. Half of the adults in Detroit can't even read. It's safe to say other liberal cities are getting similar results.

Yet progressives love public schools. They love having the state control what kids are taught. They're also a nice way to funnel taxpayer dollars into public unions. Public unions which vote Democratic. The only "reform" any progressive will consider is even more money to the unions, which they claim will improve results. It won't.

2. Labor unions. Another old, archaic model progressives seem to adore. Unions are labor cartels, which artificially raise the price of labor above market rates, and guess what happens when the price of labor goes up? Employers buy less of it. Aside from creating unemployment, they tend to make companies less competitive at best, and completely destroy them at worst. See Detroit. Then there is the epic amount of corruption, organized crime, violence, etc which have always been associated with unions.

3. The Post office. Good Lord, talk about obsolete. Here a government "worker" walks around the neighborhood putting paper envelopes into mailboxes. Most of it's junk mail. I did some research. It takes 100 million trees to create the 80 billion pieces of junk mail per year, which then goes right into landfills. Does that sound "progressive"? I thought they cared about climate change and the environment? Apparently not, because they love the Post Office.

4. Socialism. Good grief. Young, modern progressive are looking to make the world a better place with ... socialism. The most ass-backwards way to produce goods and services. All of the signs show the future is pointing towards decentralization, yet progressives yearn for central planning. Hasn't the "party of science" ever opened a history book?

5. Islam. Yes, progressives luv Islam. It must be how Islam respects women, after all, many progressives are feminists. Or perhaps it's Islam's tolerance for gay people?

Hey progressives, get yourself a new name, cause you ain't progressive.

Click to expand...

Another refugee from 8chan.

"Progressive" is the king of all Orwellianisms.

The Queen, "Tolerance", is mighty in stature; and the two princes, "reproductive rights" and "social justice", and two princesses, "anti-fascist" and "hate speech", hold high offices within the kingdom. But the glittering crown of doublespeak rests high atop the head of "Progressive".

May the king live forever!

Taylor said:

Progressivism is a late 19th century invention steeped in "fairness" that emphasizes collectivist, authoritarian solutions to perceived evils of capitalism.

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The Progressives actually began with the intent of enacting Christian morality into law. That vein still runs deep, even though today's specimens have little to no awareness of it.

(An exception: Martin Sheen. He's quite up front about it.)

Craig234 said:

It's true the Post Office's mission has changed over time, the nature of the mail, but let's talk about an actual issue with it. The government passed a bill to require the Post Office to pre-fund *the next 75 years* of their healthcare for their workers - gutting their budget, greatly harming their operation, using the law to attack the agency (the story of the passage of the bill is a bit complicated). What we SHOULD do is to adapt to changes and improve the Post Office - such as adding basic banking functions to Post Offices, as other countries do, and we even have had in the past.

Click to expand...

Why? The post office is completely unnecessary. Letters can be delivered by private firms, if there's even a market for it. Plus, you didn't address all the environmental damage. 100 million trees per year is a lot of trees. 80 billion pieces of junk mail is a lot of landfill waste, and for what?

Taylor said:

Progressivism is a late 19th century invention steeped in "fairness" that emphasizes collectivist, authoritarian solutions to perceived evils of capitalism.

Click to expand...

You misuse the word "authoritarian". Authoritarian is when the public has oppressive government oppress it, not when the public uses power to protect itself. To the guy who wants to destroy the environment to make a buck who is prevented by an elected government, he might see that as authoritarian. It's not.

aociswundumho said:

progressive:

favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, especially in political matters: a progressive mayor.


It occurred to me recently that progressives are anything but progressive. Let's look at a few of the institutions they support:


1. Public schools. This obsolete institution goes back to the 17th century in the US. The idea here is all kids should be forced to learn the same subjects at the same rate. The kids are picked up in buses and brought to a government building for "education". The only skill they learn is how to memorize test answers. Black kids suffer the worst. For example, out of 13 high schools in Baltimore, a grand total of zero kids were proficient in math.

The damage public schools are doing to the country is long term. Half of the adults in Detroit can't even read. It's safe to say other liberal cities are getting similar results.

Yet progressives love public schools. They love having the state control what kids are taught. They're also a nice way to funnel taxpayer dollars into public unions. Public unions which vote Democratic. The only "reform" any progressive will consider is even more money to the unions, which they claim will improve results. It won't.

2. Labor unions. Another old, archaic model progressives seem to adore. Unions are labor cartels, which artificially raise the price of labor above market rates, and guess what happens when the price of labor goes up? Employers buy less of it. Aside from creating unemployment, they tend to make companies less competitive at best, and completely destroy them at worst. See Detroit. Then there is the epic amount of corruption, organized crime, violence, etc which have always been associated with unions.

3. The Post office. Good Lord, talk about obsolete. Here a government "worker" walks around the neighborhood putting paper envelopes into mailboxes. Most of it's junk mail. I did some research. It takes 100 million trees to create the 80 billion pieces of junk mail per year, which then goes right into landfills. Does that sound "progressive"? I thought they cared about climate change and the environment? Apparently not, because they love the Post Office.

4. Socialism. Good grief. Young, modern progressive are looking to make the world a better place with ... socialism. The most ass-backwards way to produce goods and services. All of the signs show the future is pointing towards decentralization, yet progressives yearn for central planning. Hasn't the "party of science" ever opened a history book?

5. Islam. Yes, progressives luv Islam. It must be how Islam respects women, after all, many progressives are feminists. Or perhaps it's Islam's tolerance for gay people?

Hey progressives, get yourself a new name, cause you ain't progressive.

Click to expand...

First you pick which definition of the label you apply to us. Then you tell us what we believe and how it does not fit the that definition you picked. Then you tell us why we believe what you told us we believed, and how counterproductive it all is. Then you tell us to find a new label.

. I don't have time to deal with this simplistic, arbitrary and amateurish logic. Dismissed.

aociswundumho said:

Why? The post office is completely unnecessary. Letters can be delivered by private firms, if there's even a market for it. Plus, you didn't address all the environmental damage. 100 million trees per year is a lot of trees. 80 billion pieces of junk mail is a lot of landfill waste, and for what?

Click to expand...

I'm not familiar enough with the topic of junk mail to discuss it, but I think it's pretty far down the list of problems, for example, let's deal with plastic first. Trees *can* be a renewable resource (we need a lot more planted), there is an overhead to our economy which can include junk mail (ask your local pizza business who relies on the mail), and the junk mail is recyclable.

Harshaw said:

The Progressives actually began with the intent of enacting Christian morality into law. That vein still runs deep, even though today's specimens have little to no awareness of it.

(An exception: Martin Sheen. He's quite up front about it.)

Click to expand...

Religious values fit progressives more than anyone else.

It was nothing but political lies and opportunism that led Reagan to greatly boost the 'religious right', with corrupt groups such as Falwell and other televangelists and mega churches out for profits, something Bush 43 expanded on trying to steer tax dollars to the churches instead of government agencies to provide services (and profit) to buy support. Bush and trump see them as people they are good at manipulating.

That doesn't mean every agrees with those values - for example, prohibition looked at great problems in the country from alcohol abuse, including women who faced a lot of domestic violence - a policy that proved quite unpopular. (Funny enough, trump says he doesn't drink, like Muslims also don't).

But yes, 'help the poor' and other such values come a lot from religious values, which are what progressives support, while the right is mostly corrupt plutocrats and their suckers who vote for them based on the propaganda.

A number of leading (former) Republicans, including people like Kevin Phillips, are very concerned about the links between fascism and the religious right. Hell, at times Hitler misused Christianity in his propaganda.

There's a long tradition of religious leaders allying with 'progressive' political causes.

Craig234 said:

You misuse the word "authoritarian". Authoritarian is when the public has oppressive government oppress it, not when the public uses power to protect itself. To the guy who wants to destroy the environment to make a buck who is prevented by an elected government, he might see that as authoritarian. It's not.

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I don't think so.

Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by strong central power and limited political freedoms. Under an authoritarian regime, individual freedoms are subordinate to the state, and there is no constitutional accountability

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Progressivism has historically sought to curtail individual freedoms and has been distrustful of representative legislative bodies in favor of a strong executive with greater authority to bring about "change" and "fairness".

Taylor said:

Progressivism has historically sought to curtail individual freedoms...

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"You can't lynch black people"

"You have to serve anyone regardless of race in your public business"

"You can't blow up Yosemite to try to make a buck"

"You can't work 7 year old children in dangerous jobs"

Yes, progressives really limiting individual freedoms.

and has been distrustful of representative legislative bodies in favor of a strong executive with greater authority to bring about "change" and "fairness".

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Not so much distrustful of representative legislative bodies. That would be the plutocrats, the Republicans, who always want to gut the power of the people and try to turn them against their own government, to protect the wrongdoers. But we are distrustful of 'tyranny of the majority', that's fair. So we like things like universal rights, not "sorry, black people, you got outvoted".

Craig234 said:

Religious values fit progressives more than anyone else.

It was nothing but political lies and opportunism that led Reagan to greatly boost the 'religious right', with corrupt groups such as Falwell and other televangelists and mega churches out for profits, something Bush 43 expanded on trying to steer tax dollars to the churches instead of government agencies to provide services (and profit) to buy support. Bush and trump see them as people they are good at manipulating.

That doesn't mean every agrees with those values - for example, prohibition looked at great problems in the country from alcohol abuse, including women who faced a lot of domestic violence - a policy that proved quite unpopular. (Funny enough, trump says he doesn't drink, like Muslims also don't).

But yes, 'help the poor' and other such values come a lot from religious values, which are what progressives support, while the right is mostly corrupt plutocrats and their suckers who vote for them based on the propaganda.

A number of leading (former) Republicans, including people like Kevin Phillips, are very concerned about the links between fascism and the religious right. Hell, at times Hitler misused Christianity in his propaganda.

There's a long tradition of religious leaders allying with 'progressive' political causes.

Click to expand...

Your rant about "the right" is entirely irrelevant to the point -- which you agree with -- that the Progressives sought to enact Christian morality into law, and that the modern "progressive" tradition still has those roots.

Taylor said:

Progressivism is a late 19th century invention steeped in "fairness" that emphasizes collectivist, authoritarian solutions to perceived evils of capitalism.

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real progress are citizens becoming more independent and less reliant upon government. Modern Progressives are doing everything possible to make as many people as possible, permanently attached to the public umbilical cord.

TurtleDude said:

real progress are citizens becoming more independent and less reliant upon government. Modern Progressives are doing everything possible to make as many people as possible, permanently attached to the public umbilical cord.

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Make as many people as possible attached to the government's teats? Certainly you understand the logistics behind that? Think before you type.

Harshaw said:

Your rant about "the right" is entirely irrelevant to the point -- which you agree with -- that the Progressives sought to enact Christian morality into law, and that the modern "progressive" tradition still has those roots.

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I really don't care if you think my point is relevant to your point or not, if you are uninterested in the right's wrongs and its abuse on these issues. Yes, we agreed on the second point.

AProudLefty said:

Make as many people as possible attached to the government's teats? Certainly you understand the logistics behind that? Think before you type.

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Republican liars have adopted the lie that the government playing a role in helping people become independent, prosperous, more productive is actually enslaving them, while their preference for either hiring them for the least money possible, with the fewest rights possible, and killing them off, is 'freedom'.

Craig234 said:

I really don't care if you think my point is relevant to your point or not, if you are uninterested in the right's wrongs and its abuse on these issues. Yes, we agreed on the second point.

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No, your whataboutism is indeed quite irrelevant.

aociswundumho said:

Why? The post office is completely unnecessary. Letters can be delivered by private firms, if there's even a market for it. Plus, you didn't address all the environmental damage. 100 million trees per year is a lot of trees. 80 billion pieces of junk mail is a lot of landfill waste, and for what?

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I like the post office. Have never had a letter lost, and the mailman goes out of his way to be helpful. I do think the price of sending "junk mail" should be raised significantly. Also AOC is most likely smarter than you. Have a good one!

Craig234 said:

I'm not familiar enough with the topic of junk mail to discuss it, but I think it's pretty far down the list of problems, for example, let's deal with plastic first. Trees *can* be a renewable resource (we need a lot more planted), there is an overhead to our economy which can include junk mail (ask your local pizza business who relies on the mail), and the junk mail is recyclable.

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Trees are a renewable resource and we don’t need more planted, here in the Pacific Northwest we harvest less then a quarter of the new board feet growing every year. We actually have way too many trees and many are sick or dead and become wildfire fuel.

Craig234 said:

Republican liars have adopted the lie that the government playing a role in helping people become independent, prosperous, more productive is actually enslaving them, while their preference for either hiring them for the least money possible, with the fewest rights possible, and killing them off, is 'freedom'.

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Bull****. What a totally whackadoodle stream of effluvia.