• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Police were warned about El Paso shooter....by his mother

Josie said:
View attachment 67261477
Click to expand...

That is exactly how background check information is processed by law enforcement. They cannot arrest someone before they commit a crime. The mom knows he is crazy but law enforcement cannot accept that without a court judgment. Now if the mom had complained to Houston's democrat mayor that her son was involved in a religious cult of Bible thumpers, then the mayor could have gotten a court order to assemble a battalion of storm troopers followed by CNN reporters to raid the place and seize everyone's guns and put them on terrorist lists because of their religion coupled with their whiteness. :)
 
Mach said:
Does an immature young male with no firearms training, easily buying an AK-47 (variant I assume), concern you Josie?
It's normal in the United States...9/11 and LEO is correct to say that's pretty normal, and not a yellow flag, much less a red flag.

I mean, as a member of this society I'm horrified we allow it, and I'm very concerned that such individuals are so easily allowed to by such incredibly efficient killing machines. But as a matter of today's law, it's as American as Apple Pie.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't one of the first things we look at in the wake of an uptick of these shootings it MORE SECURITY ? I can't believe that public places are as vulnerable as they are. I've been around a little and I see better security in other countries. More armed police, more private security, tighter access to venues. We don't seem to be doing much of this, just complaining and beating the political horse to death.
Malls, concerts, schools shouldn't have the choice to hire or not to hire protection.
 
AProudLefty said:
How can we fix it while at the same time ignore 2A? We've been stomping on the 2nd enough as is.
Click to expand...

If you can't see, you can't drive a car. If you're mentally unwell, you shouldn't be able to own a gun. We need to create a process whereby an individual's psychological fitness for owning a firearm can be evaluated.
 
RedSunRising said:
If you can't see, you can't drive a car. If you're mentally unwell, you shouldn't be able to own a gun. We need to create a process whereby an individual's psychological fitness for owning a firearm can be evaluated.
Click to expand...

 
RedSunRising said:
If you can't see, you can't drive a car. If you're mentally unwell, you shouldn't be able to own a gun. We need to create a process whereby an individual's psychological fitness for owning a firearm can be evaluated.
Click to expand...

I saw a figure of less than 2% of shooters in gun crimes have any diagnosed mental illness. That's saying we have other problems and I would say we have people in this world who are just mean and full of hate. Not a high percentage but there are folks there. For instance, members of Al Queda, ISIS, the IRA back in the last century. I wouldn't call them mentally unstable but they are sure mean and violent people. Dealing with them isn't the same at dealing with a person who suffers from say depression. Bad people are looking to do bad things.
We have to figure out how to identify and track these people.
 
RedSunRising said:
Interesting. I still don't think that homicidal and suicidal people should own guns.
Click to expand...

That's the problem. What line shouldn't we cross? Some of us have been feeling suicidal or depressed, especially after losing a loved one, from time to time.
 
Integrityrespec said:
I saw a figure of less than 2% of shooters in gun crimes have any diagnosed mental illness. That's saying we have other problems and I would say we have people in this world who are just mean and full of hate. Not a high percentage but there are folks there. For instance, members of Al Queda, ISIS, the IRA back in the last century. I wouldn't call them mentally unstable but they are sure mean and violent people. Dealing with them isn't the same at dealing with a person who suffers from say depression. Bad people are looking to do bad things.
We have to figure out how to identify and track these people.
Click to expand...

I've seen every figure between 2% and 80%. I'm not an expert and would have to really drill down on those numbers to identify the differences. As with every complex problem, though, I agree that it has more than one factor and that we should be exploring all of them. Mental illness, guns, hate/discrimination, alienation/loneliness, desensitivity to pain and loss, devaluation of life, etc.
 
AProudLefty said:
That's the problem. What line shouldn't we cross? Some of us have been feeling suicidal or depressed, especially after losing a loved one, from time to time.
Click to expand...

I think if I am a legitimate threat to my own life or the lives as others, as adjudicated by a mental health professional and a judge, that my guns should be taken away. If my condition is a reaction to an event and not chronic, then I should be able to get another court process when I've emerged from my grief, for example.
 
RedSunRising said:
If you can't see, you can't drive a car. If you're mentally unwell, you shouldn't be able to own a gun. We need to create a process whereby an individual's psychological fitness for owning a firearm can be evaluated.
Click to expand...

Just remembered a great movie. Should be seen at once in life.

 
Josie said:
Right. Why didn't they just peek at his social media to see what he was thinking about?
Click to expand...

If his mother was concerned enough for her to call the cops she could have done that digging herself. Going to the cops with "My son is immature and just bought an AK" is different than "My son has expressed violent ideations, seems to be acting strange and just bought an AK. I'm worried that he might harm himself or others".

As a parent that would be a very difficult call to make but it's a lot more likely to get somebody to take more than a cursory glance at the situation.
 
question; I heard commentators say the shooter in El Paso shot for at least 20 minutes, paused and then briefly started again. Where were the police during this time?
 
Integrityrespec said:
Shouldn't one of the first things we look at in the wake of an uptick of these shootings it MORE SECURITY ? I can't believe that public places are as vulnerable as they are. I've been around a little and I see better security in other countries. More armed police, more private security, tighter access to venues. We don't seem to be doing much of this, just complaining and beating the political horse to death.
Malls, concerts, schools shouldn't have the choice to hire or not to hire protection.
Click to expand...

No, you should first look at the problem in detail, causes, and then and only then, solutions. That's how reasonable people conduct themselves in ever other area of inquiry. Why so different for gun sprees and firearms deaths? Because your first reaction is to try and protect guns. It should be to save lives.

No, making our nation look like a ****ing prison with walls and people with guns manning every corner, like Hannity suggested, is a terrible idea and doesn't fit my idea of the nation I'd like to live in. Police state isn't appealing.
 
RedSunRising said:
I think if I am a legitimate threat to my own life or the lives as others, as adjudicated by a mental health professional and a judge, that my guns should be taken away. If my condition is a reaction to an event and not chronic, then I should be able to get another court process when I've emerged from my grief, for example.
Click to expand...
If you are a legitimate threat to yourself or others as adjudicated by a mental health professional and a judge, you are placed in a secure facility for observation and treatment and you arent released from said facility until you are judged to no longer be a threat to yourself or others. The pretty much exactly describes the law of the land today.

On the topic of mental health...do you also believe that people that are a legitimate threat to my own life or the lives as others, as adjudicated by a mental health professional and a judge should have their cars taken from them? Be flagged to where they cant rent vehicles? Have pony objects, bats, and dangerous chemicals removed from their homes? Have their children taken from them?
 
Grim17 said:
To me, that's what we have to figure out how to fix.
Click to expand...

But this one is tough. I think in this case, the kid had a long list of things that should have flagged him, but in general can someone just say "so and so is legally possessing a gun and I don't like it" result in police contact and possible confiscation?

We do need to figure out how to fix some issues, but at the same accord even the most well meaning law can be well abused if we don't have proper oversight and regulation on its exercise.
 
Mach said:
No, you should first look at the problem in detail, causes, and then and only then, solutions. That's how reasonable people conduct themselves in ever other area of inquiry. Why so different for gun sprees and firearms deaths? Because your first reaction is to try and protect guns. It should be to save lives.

No, making our nation look like a ****ing prison with walls and people with guns manning every corner, like Hannity suggested, is a terrible idea and doesn't fit my idea of the nation I'd like to live in. Police state isn't appealing.
Click to expand...
Its rather ironic that in one sentence you claim "you should first look at the problem in detail, causes, and then and only then, solutions" (which is true BTW) and then assume that the solution is laws that would require gun owners to protect their rights.

What is the first thing coming from leftists following one of these incidents? We have to pass a law! Any law! We dont care what law! We dont care what law it is as long as it s a gun law! We hate the NRA because they wont let us pass laws!
 
Josie said:
Right. Why didn't they just peek at his social media to see what he was thinking about?
Click to expand...

According to the story, she never so much as gave the police her name, his name, or a phone number.
 
VanceMack said:
If you are a legitimate threat to yourself or others as adjudicated by a mental health professional and a judge, you are placed in a secure facility for observation and treatment and you arent released from said facility until you are judged to no longer be a threat to yourself or others. The pretty much exactly describes the law of the land today.

On the topic of mental health...do you also believe that people that are a legitimate threat to my own life or the lives as others, as adjudicated by a mental health professional and a judge should have their cars taken from them? Be flagged to where they cant rent vehicles? Have pony objects, bats, and dangerous chemicals removed from their homes? Have their children taken from them?
Click to expand...

Nope, just the guns.
 
VanceMack said:
Its rather ironic that in one sentence you claim "you should first look at the problem in detail, causes, and then and only then, solutions" (which is true BTW) and then assume that the solution is laws that would require gun owners to protect their rights.
Click to expand...
Not the case. I'm saying we're here to say it's a problem that must be fixed, or not. And you're here talking about protecting guns, not lives or fixing problems.
What is the first thing coming from leftists following one of these incidents? We have to pass a law! Any law! We dont care what law! We dont care what law it is as long as it s a gun law! We hate the NRA because they wont let us pass laws!
Click to expand...
strawman.
 
Mach said:
Not the case. I'm saying we're here to say it's a problem that must be fixed, or not. And you're here talking about protecting guns, not lives or fixing problems. strawman.
Click to expand...
LITERALLY the only time I take the "protect guns" approach is right after some ****wad has used a tragic incident as a springboard to suggest more idiotic gun laws that do nothing.
 
VanceMack said:
LITERALLY the only time I take the "protect guns" approach is right after some ****wad has used a tragic incident as a springboard to suggest more idiotic gun laws that do nothing.
Click to expand...

Here's a cookie.
 
This is something that looks a lot worse, than it is something that actually could have been handled differently.

We don't have any test for gun buyers to take that says 'are they mature' much less 'are they bigots' much less 'are they so hateful they are likely to commit murder', other than being a legal adult.

There are practical issues with what the law can do on these things. Age restriction is practical, though even that's not foolproof; kids can buy and find guns various ways.

The police can't go to his home and say 'your mother called us so we're taking your gun'.

There are no easy answers. There is a real problem without an easy fix. 'Real' solutions range from impractical (e.g., ban all guns, somehow have police snipers everywhere all the time) to undesirable (every citizen has to wear a video camera transmitting to government monitoring all the time).

We can make some incremental improvements, which Democrats are pushing, which will reduce the violence, but it's very hard to have stopped this shooter even with his mother saying he was dangerous.

There are some minimal efforts to restrict gun sales to people who are so dysfunctional they have their rights as adults taken away.

And as soon as trump became president, Republicans moved to repeal THAT restriction - so that people who had been found incompetent, and couldn't do things like sign a check, could still buy a gun.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom