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Student Debt Forgiveness

RaleBulgarian said:
Why should I foot the bill for someone else’s kid’s schooling? What logical, fair minded reason is there?
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Why should you or I foot the bill for war brought under fraud?

Forgiving that debt would be a pittance by any standard. At the moment, the Pentagon "cannot find" $22 Trillion. How much is the student debt you fret about?
 
gdgyva said:
a basic business degree will open a few doors

especially in sales/marketing/advertising type positions

a know quite a few guys in the car biz with basic business degrees who have done quite well for themselves

not quite a stem degree, but it will get you an interview and a shot at a lot of places....

the rest is ALWAYS up to the individual
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I don't disagree. But I can see that the wage gap started widening after the introduction of trickle down economics. Businesses are out for #1 and will always pass along costs while protecting their profit, largely at the cost of their employees - while expecting those same employees to be loyal as a dog and work like one too. Americans are overworked and underpaid. We have the worst maternity/paternity leave policies in the industrialized world.

What we should be asking here is why all these college-educated Americans can't afford to pay their student loans.
 
RaleBulgarian said:
That’s some whackadoodle logic.

Comparing young people stressed by debt to actual disabled citizens??
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Why not? You're paying to support somebody else. I have an auto immune disease and was once told by a poster here that they'd rather I be homeless begging for money to cover my health care costs than get medical assistance through Obamacare. That's the country we live in. My money, you need some? Not my problem. I don't care about anyone but myself and my money and if the government, or a student in debt, or a family that needs to put food on the table, or a disabled person wants my money too bad. It's mine. Me. I care about me. Not you or anyone else.

This is America. That's how we operate.
 
gdgyva said:
you want to show me a case file where some lawyer has filed a case against the government for student loans?

i will wait....
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When did I say anything about that? It's a challenge I believe would win. In fact, I struggle to see why anyone would argue against debt forgiveness. We bailed out rich assholes making poor decisions, yet everyone here mocks and derides students who were mislead.

I find that nihilistic.
 
Obscurity said:
I never said you "never" said that.



No one told me what to study or what to go for. What they told me (and my entire class) was that we'd be essentially useless, dead weight if we -didn't go.- What they claimed was statistics proved their assertions. That's a blatant misrepresentation of my position and my post. My post blatantly describes what we were told; no college, no good job, no income, no future.

You can ignore my perspective all you like but please don't misrepresent it.



You can also escape it by calling it for what it is; a steaming load of bull**** served on a silver platter under false pretenses by a bunch of lying, conniving, sniveling, sneering autocrats, and demanding they eliminate it.

Those same hucksters did it with the TARP bailouts. And yet, we all want to continue this charade with school debt "because personal responsibility." Well, those that lied -also- have to take responsibility for their misrepresentations.
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Who is the "they" you're talking about? "They" told you your life wouldn't be worth anything if you didn't go to college?
 
Obscurity said:
Well, again, that's your school. We had consumer business math. The teacher was fired and jailed for selling drugs to kids in the HS.

No one said it's the sole responsibility of the school to teach economics. Then again, perhaps it ought to be. Most americans are terrible with money.
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Um, I have no idea what a teacher selling drugs has to do with what I posted. Yes it's "my" school, or rather the schools by 3 kids attended.
 
tres borrachos said:
Who is the "they" you're talking about? "They" told you your life wouldn't be worth anything if you didn't go to college?
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They = people in positions of authority; the government was running ads on television, every job fair had folks from different colleges telling us we needed to go to college or else we wouldn't make any money, every corporation of course lined up right behind this, as they invested in these companies and made a killing.

Who exactly do you think I was referencing?

I was 18 - I took out minimal loans because I never wanted to go to college - so I went to community college. I am fine with my career choice. I am also fine with how much I ended up paying for this. The problem is that it's easy to fall into the predatory trap these colleges and industries put out there.

Why, for example, would you need a bachelor degree to clerk the mailroom?
 
tres borrachos said:
Um, I have no idea what a teacher selling drugs has to do with what I posted. Yes it's "my" school, or rather the schools by 3 kids attended.
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My point is that, again, your experience is different then mine. I think it's great your school taught finance. Mine didn't. The tax payers wouldn't brook increases in taxation and my school became a ****ty title I dumpster that didn't offer anything but the very basic of basics to its students. Consumer business math, which taught us finances, was run by a guy selling opioids in the bathroom during class breaks.

Your experience was Venus, mine was ****ing mars.
 
Obscurity said:
My point is that, again, your experience is different then mine. I think it's great your school taught finance. Mine didn't. The tax payers wouldn't brook increases in taxation and my school became a ****ty title I dumpster that didn't offer anything but the very basic of basics to its students. Consumer business math, which taught us finances, was run by a guy selling opioids in the bathroom during class breaks.

Your experience was Venus, mine was ****ing mars.
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My high school didn't teach finance. I'm talking about my children's school. Today.

I learned finance from my parents.
 
Obscurity said:
They = people in positions of authority; the government was running ads on television, every job fair had folks from different colleges telling us we needed to go to college or else we wouldn't make any money, every corporation of course lined up right behind this, as they invested in these companies and made a killing.

Who exactly do you think I was referencing?

I was 18 - I took out minimal loans because I never wanted to go to college - so I went to community college. I am fine with my career choice. I am also fine with how much I ended up paying for this. The problem is that it's easy to fall into the predatory trap these colleges and industries put out there.

Why, for example, would you need a bachelor degree to clerk the mailroom?
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What government entity ran ads on television 2-3 decades ago telling you that you would be a loser if you didn't go to college?

Colleges don't host job fairs at high schools. They host events to meet with prospective students. Of course they tell you their school is the best. That's the purpose of being there. It's a marketing event for them to interest prospective students. And you're telling me that they were telling you that if you didn't attend their schools, you would be a loser and make no money?

I'm not going to ask where you grew up, but based on your anecdotes of drug dealing teachers and kids being duped into signing up for college because some stranger told them they'd be losers if they didn't go sounds like a unique issue.

Nobody ever said you need a BA to clerk the mailroom. If your childhood dream is to be a mail clerk, someone should tell you that you don't need to attend college for that. If your childhood dream is to be a surgeon, someone should tell you that you need to attend undergraduate and graduate school.
 
Idiotic.

We should certainly fund a significant expansion of affordable government-run colleges/universities, etc. But a one-time debt forgiveness program is just silly.

First, why? Yes, the fact that they are saddled with debt is bad. But they also chose to go to an expensive private school rather than a far more affordable in-state school. They then chose what degree to get, what career to seek. So now people who were responsible and paid of their loans have to pay off the loans of the people who weren't responsible?

Second, a one-time forgiveness program will fix nothing. The same overpriced schools will be there and people will still decide to take out huge loans to go there. In fact, this is a situation where there is a real moral hazard. Do these politicians think "gee, I'm not going to do what those people who had to get bailed out did". If anything, more people are going to do the same thing expecting to later get bailed out. Moral hazard arguments are often misused, but there's a valid application here.

Nah, what we need is good affordable education. That I could pay taxes for. But I don't want to pay to bail out someone who decided to take out 200k to attend a 50k/yr university, got a degree in history, couldn't get a job even in that field, etc. And that's especially true when it's almost certain that there will be calls for another round of forgiveness in 10, 20 years.
 
tres borrachos said:
Okay. We disagree. That's what this board is about.

No, it's not debt slavery. Slavery is an act that is against someone's will. Nobody forces a student to take debt or go to college.

I also don't hold bankers and politicians responsible for the inflated costs of college today.
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Nevermind that in-state schools tend to be far more affordable; there are also vocational schools.

The idea of paying taxes to pay off the debt of someone who decided they just had to move across the country to go to that fancy private university, got a degree without thinking of whether or not it might allow them to actually pay off this huge debt, and is now struggling with it irks me.

If we couldn't make our mortgage payments anymore, we'd sell and move. We wouldn't go "gee, you know, I really deserve to live in a nicer area. Could you perhaps pay it off for me, taxpayers?" Everyone cannot have everything.

It really does worry me how a certain part of the Democratic party really is finally going as far left as the entire party was previously (and wrongly) accused of. Oh yeah, pay off debt! Free college! Single payer without raising taxes! People should get to have all the nicest things!

Ah...no. We're in bad enough financial condition as it is.
 
Obscurity said:
It's debt slavery. You can't even get out of it if you go completely bankrupt, which is absolutely insane.



I hold them accountable for the INITIAL lie campaign that began around the time I was graduating high school. The government and big EDU knew they could rake in billions if they changed the narrative and lied to everyone about the prospects of employment outside of college - and they did this not by outright saying "you get a degree you will get a job."

What they did was they preyed upon fear and used a negative ad campaign to foist upon the public a misconception about education and the benefits of a degree. "You'll make more, get a better job, etc." none of which is a fact.

The government and its crony capitalist pals in big edu need to forgive this debt because it was a deal made in bad faith, based on false pretenses and outright lies.
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Assuming that it was all because the government "lied", did they not have any responsibility to think about whether what the government was telling them was true?

If not, did they at least have any responsibility to ask themselves whether they really needed to go to the fancy private university, or perhaps whether if they went to the more affordable in-state school and worked really hard, they'd do fine in life?

And when will it stop? What's going to prevent this from recurring? If it's not fair to not bail them out, why won't it be unfair to bail out the next round of people who take out loans with no plans about how they're going to be able to pay them off?

And why shouldn't we then bail out everyone who took out a mortgage they couldn't afford because the bank made it sound like they could afford it? The BMW lease they absolutely did not need when a financed Corolla would have gotten them from A to B just fine? Etc.
 
Mr Person said:
Nevermind that in-state schools tend to be far more affordable; there are also vocational schools.

The idea of paying taxes to pay off the debt of someone who decided they just had to move across the country to go to that fancy private university, got a degree without thinking of whether or not it might allow them to actually pay off this huge debt, and is now struggling with it irks me.

If we couldn't make our mortgage payments anymore, we'd sell and move. We wouldn't go "gee, you know, I really deserve to live in a nicer area. Could you perhaps pay it off for me, taxpayers?" Everyone cannot have everything.

It really does worry me how a certain part of the Democratic party really is finally going as far left as the entire party was previously (and wrongly) accused of. Oh yeah, pay off debt! Free college! Single payer without raising taxes! People should get to have all the nicest things!

Ah...no. We're in bad enough financial condition as it is.
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That's actually a great analogy, Mr. P. The one about the mortgages. Not to get too off topic here, that's always been one of my struggles with the messaging from the CFPB, that no adult should be expected to know what he's signing up for when he contracts for something (like a mortgage). I'm sorry, but if you make $55,000 a year, no, you can't buy that $750,000 house, in spite of being told that you can pay interest only for x period of time and then have a balloon payment of $695,000 due in 5 years. You can't afford it then either. And it isn't my problem that you're too clueless to know that.
 
Incredulous said:
I don't disagree. But I can see that the wage gap started widening after the introduction of trickle down economics. Businesses are out for #1 and will always pass along costs while protecting their profit, largely at the cost of their employees - while expecting those same employees to be loyal as a dog and work like one too. Americans are overworked and underpaid. We have the worst maternity/paternity leave policies in the industrialized world.

What we should be asking here is why all these college-educated Americans can't afford to pay their student loans.
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a. way too many of them got degrees in stuff that doesnt relate to most jobs....great you have a degree, but how does it HELP the employer? sociology, history, journalism, some languages...are are good degrees but unless you are teaching or working for the government...how do they compute to the private sector? some of these have zero jobs available and 10-15k new graduates each year....

b. way too many attended expensive schools when secondary/state schools would have sufficed....or even could have attended community college for two years and then transferred to a four year university

c. very very few found out anything about the CAREER's they were pursuing before actually taking the classes....if they had, they would have changed majors, and rethought their position

those are just a FEW of the issues....
 
gdgyva said:
a. way too many of them got degrees in stuff that doesnt relate to most jobs....great you have a degree, but how does it HELP the employer? sociology, history, journalism, some languages...are are good degrees but unless you are teaching or working for the government...how do they compute to the private sector? some of these have zero jobs available and 10-15k new graduates each year....

b. way too many attended expensive schools when secondary/state schools would have sufficed....or even could have attended community college for two years and then transferred to a four year university

c. very very few found out anything about the CAREER's they were pursuing before actually taking the classes....if they had, they would have changed majors, and rethought their position

those are just a FEW of the issues....
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And some stay for a long time in school and come away with a little to no degree. I knew one individual that was in undergrad for like 6 years and never got a degree, is upset at loans and that parents would pay and blah.

I don't know how you can spend more than 5 years in undergrad and not have a degree.
 
Obscurity said:
When did I say anything about that? It's a challenge I believe would win. In fact, I struggle to see why anyone would argue against debt forgiveness. We bailed out rich assholes making poor decisions, yet everyone here mocks and derides students who were mislead.

I find that nihilistic.
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you said they were defrauded....your words

where is the court cases....

where has someone challenged the student loans they owed back to the government?

c'mon you believe this...show me a lawyer who also does, and who filed a case against the government

surely there is ONE
 
The real problem is not just the rising costs of college. THe problem is what is the problem with everything in this country, greed. Companies aren't paying wages where students can pay back their loans. Plus, you have predatory banks with ridiculously high interest rates which should be illegal for student loans. You have rising cost of living that isn't' being matched by increased wages. it comes down to the same issue, greedy companies who's CEOs and shareholder horde all the profits at the expense of the worker. Outsource jobs overseas.
 
Ikari said:
We pay for public schools in general.

Though I do not think college necessarily should be "free". It should, however, be cheaper and far more academically rigorous than it has become.
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There's a lot of thought that the easy of getting student loans accelerated the rise of tuitions. The government as a lender is essentially an "Uncle Sugar" that cheerfully writes a check for whatever cost the college charges the student. Having to repay is the farthest thing from the students mind - everyone is happy until graduation - the college got its money, the government has done a wonderful thing by helping a student get a degree in Albanian Architecture Studies, the student got is degree. And then the bill arranges. :(
 
calamity said:
"The one-time debt cancellation could cost $640 billion, the campaign has said."

Trump pisses that away in a week.
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You believe a campaign source? Most sources I've seen cite $1.2 Trillion. By the way it's your beloved House that writes the checks, so they're doing the pissing.
 
calamity said:
I paid very little to go to college. Most of us over 50 had tremendous subsidies in our public education. IIRC, tuition for a year of college in 1985 was about $1K, out of pocket. Today, it's at least 20x that.
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I went to a California State College back in the dark ages, a couple of hundreds buck a semester maybe $100 in books.
 
gdgyva said:
a. way too many of them got degrees in stuff that doesnt relate to most jobs....great you have a degree, but how does it HELP the employer? sociology, history, journalism, some languages...are are good degrees but unless you are teaching or working for the government...how do they compute to the private sector? some of these have zero jobs available and 10-15k new graduates each year....

b. way too many attended expensive schools when secondary/state schools would have sufficed....or even could have attended community college for two years and then transferred to a four year university

c. very very few found out anything about the CAREER's they were pursuing before actually taking the classes....if they had, they would have changed majors, and rethought their position

those are just a FEW of the issues....
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That is another part of the issue, along with the wage gap. We also have professions like teaching that require a degree but don't pay. I have a big problem with that one in particular.
 
calamity said:
"The one-time debt cancellation could cost $640 billion, the campaign has said."

Trump pisses that away in a week.
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Okay.. so if he pisses that away.. we should piss some more away and what good would it really do for a one time debt cancellation.. other than buy warren votes by the way.

Heck.. if that's how we do business now in government.. lets just say do a debt cancellation for anyone that has a loan on a car up to 50,000. I mean.. why should people have to have loans for cars?
 
Mr Person said:
Idiotic.

We should certainly fund a significant expansion of affordable government-run colleges/universities, etc. But a one-time debt forgiveness program is just silly.

First, why? Yes, the fact that they are saddled with debt is bad. But they also chose to go to an expensive private school rather than a far more affordable in-state school. They then chose what degree to get, what career to seek. So now people who were responsible and paid of their loans have to pay off the loans of the people who weren't responsible?

Second, a one-time forgiveness program will fix nothing. The same overpriced schools will be there and people will still decide to take out huge loans to go there. In fact, this is a situation where there is a real moral hazard. Do these politicians think "gee, I'm not going to do what those people who had to get bailed out did". If anything, more people are going to do the same thing expecting to later get bailed out. Moral hazard arguments are often misused, but there's a valid application here.

Nah, what we need is good affordable education. That I could pay taxes for. But I don't want to pay to bail out someone who decided to take out 200k to attend a 50k/yr university, got a degree in history, couldn't get a job even in that field, etc. And that's especially true when it's almost certain that there will be calls for another round of forgiveness in 10, 20 years.
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And bingo was his name-o!
 
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