A thread for Democrats: let's face it, there's no common ground with modern Republicans

[Jay59]

Let's try Republican logic on the EC.

I say that voters in big cities in red states should get 2 votes each. I mean, it's not fair that the rural voters have more votes and win elections. That totally silences the city voters from having any voice.

You failed both journalism and logic. Sorry. Still, you can get a job at CNN. They quit caring about facts when Trump announced his candidacy.

 

[Eriech]

Geez, the way you use the word "Traitors", against your own Republicans... who don't become devout cult members with no sense of comprehension of what is diplomacy and ignore the value benefit that the nature of reasonable compromise is unto the principle of diplomacy, within every element of life.


You are exemplifying yourself as a Far Right Extremist! and its noted. Thank you for the clarity... of your ideals.

Let me explain to you what Conservatives is about: Conserving the system of White Male Nationalism Led and Controlled by Wealthy White Males, who will fight in any way to pursue and seek to retain the Plutocratic system and the ability to rule by Authoritarian Premise, and continuance to use the poor whites as it to see them as nothing more than the "designated guard dogs" of plutocratic agenda. while keeping them unaware to attend to the attentions of learning to understand they stand against themselves as well.



That's true you will invest yourself to ignore, and choose selective amnesia, to keep you from looking at real truths.

Conservatism is not a cult. That McCain and Romney have no comprehension we can agree. McCain doesn't have a pulse.....not sure about Romney. Diplomacy and capitulation are not the same. Likewise compromise is not capitulation. McCain went into every negotiation compromised.

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[D_NATURED]

It is curious to hear the Democratic candidates vowing their total opposition to bi-partisanship. To them, it's everything - they have absolute total power and don't care what anyone else thinks - or nothing.

Finding middle ground with morons is a great way to babysit but a horrible way to govern. The conservatives want to control women, exploit the poor and advance their personal interests on the skirt tails of magical Jesus as a slap in the face of true justice. If the conservatives can't grow up and abandon their jihad against this country, we are doomed. Clearly, they'd rather see the country fall apart than to see it come together.

 

[D_NATURED]

You failed both journalism and logic. Sorry. Still, you can get a job at CNN. They quit caring about facts when Trump announced his candidacy.

CNN doesn't have a list like this:

Opinion | President Trump’s Lies, the Definitive List - The New York Times

 

[Jay59]

CNN doesn't have a list like this: Opinion | President Trump’s Lies, the Definitive List - The New York Times

More fake news. Fun.

NYT can be relied on to print the facts. Where is usually the issue. If they support the President, it will be buried. If it is in any way negative, it will be in the headline. CNN does not bother with that much journalistic integrity.

 

[Craig234]

Its exactly losing your voice. You would allow candidates to only have to campaign in 3, maybe 4 states. And the rest of the entire country be damned.

No matter WHAT system is used, candidates 'only have to campaign in enough places to get the votes needed to win' and by your logic could ignore nearly half the country - just like trump can 'ignore' the 100,000,000 people in California, New York and other blue states. So you're not fixing anything by just picking one group of Americans and saying 'you matter more than the rest' - you're doing the opposite of what you claim.

As a practical matter, our politics ALREADY have candidates 'take states for granted', and give more attention to 'battleground states', just as they are encouraged to take the people further from the 'center' in their parties for granted - who are they going to vote for, the other party? These are things that happen regardless of any of the issues around the EC.

I'm talking lesser of 2 evils. Under the EC, yeah, each voice is weighted differently, and that's not fair. But,,.under that system (assuming no gerrymandering BS), everyone has a voice.

No, you're talking the GREATER of two evils. You have simply decided that one part of America deserves more votes per voter than other parts of America. Why not give EVERY minority in America double votes? Gays don't count. Blacks don't count. You can find an endless less of categories like 'rural Americans' and say THEY need a more 'equal' voice than their numbers and demand they get more votes.

You are ignoring the fact that you are stealing the fair share of power of the American people not in the group you favor. You might feel resentful that big cities have more people than rural areas. Gay people might feel resentful that heterosexuals get more votes. Black people might feel resentful that white people get more votes. That's how democracy works. You are supporting inequality, period.

Without it, we may as well just call ourselves the united tri states of America, cuz 3 states determine our entire political future.

By the way, even your math is false and hyperbolic. there are 538 electoral votes. CA, NY, and IL combined have 104, not a majority, not even half of a majority. So, no, it's not the 'tri states of America', but even if it were, that'd be because most Americans lived in those three states, and every American deserves their one equal vote.

There are other ways to protect the individual rights and minority rights from tyranny of the majority, but your deciding to give one minority more votes than other people just because of your bias is wrong, no matter how victimized and powerless and angry you feel about not always getting your way.

 

[RealityNow]

Conservatism is not a cult. That McCain and Romney have no comprehension we can agree. McCain doesn't have a pulse.....not sure about Romney. Diplomacy and capitulation are not the same. Likewise compromise is not capitulation. McCain went into every negotiation compromised.

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Cult = "a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. synonyms: obsession with, fixation on, mania for.

As to your claim of McCain of being compromised.... is your way of saying you detest "dipolmatic motivations'. (still resenting him for his support of ACA health care) (so, you resent they did not stick to the right wing mentality of "attack something, attack anything and attack everything mentality)

Basically, its no different than the mentality of the Right Winger- who will "attack" their own Republican members, who do not tow a hard line support for radical devotion.
The same as some who claim and call any white person who supports Multicultural America, and does not support the right wing mentality of anti-multicultural attacks, as being traitors to their race. We saw 100 yrs of that madness, when right winger white people would attack, threaten and stand against any white people who held a liberal mindset and befriended people of non white ethnicity.

Confederate Minded Right Wing Republicans, who use the term Conservative... devote themselves to the mentality of 1960's George Wallace and Bull Connor ideology... who "detested the thought" of the values laid out in the Preamble to be for "all people". Their mentality was steeped in seeking to have public tax monies spent only on "white people", mainly in the well to do and wealthy white sectors, and they call that "fiscal conservatism"... which mean to conserve the past and conserve and direct "public tax monies" only to things that benefit "white society, with the well to do and wealthy being first in line to get the benefits, while they sell the delusion to poor whites, some day they can join the ranks of the well to do whites, if they "work hard'...while at the same time keeping wages low to ensure that never happens.

These the ideals that created the madness of segregation, and cast the poor whites as service class labor with a delusion that one day they'd be given something by the well to do and the wealthy... when fact is, all they were given was a delusion of 'superiority, by having white skin'.
This madness raged for centuries and decades....

It was LBJ, who came forth with "The Great Society" which targeted poverty and canvassed the country, making note of the dire poor conditions of poor whites and minorities and created programs that have helped 10's of millions still to this day, with Medicare, Medicaid, Job Corp and other programs he put in place to help poor whites and minorities.

Nixon tried to destroy it all with his "Southern Stragety" which resulted to see the Former, Southern Dixiecrats move their Confederate Ideology over and into the Republican Party. Playing the word game of "Conservative".. because the people were politically illiterate as to what it means, so they pretended to call it "Fiscal Conservatism, which means "direct public tax revenue to what ever benefits whites and does not benefit minorities and marginally benefits poor whites"... but the core usage of the word Conservative, is to "Conserve the premise and system of white nationalism and protect the wealthy white male white nationalist establishment.

The only reason you don't know that... is because you don't want to know it.... because generations of being groomed to think that one day the well to do and wealthy would one day give something to the poor white society. Right Winger-Republican-Confederates resent the fact of Civil Rights Act, which prevents that, by Federal Law that says, "All Groups Must Be Treated Equal".

Open your eyes for once in your life... Republican have done absolutely nothing to improve education whether it is for poor whites or any other sector of society, they have done nothing to improve health care for any sector of society, including nothing for poor whites, and they "GAVE" the wealthy a permanent tax break, while giving the working poor of society a few years of a few dollars a day, while the wealthy gained over a $Trillion dollars over the next decade. You have not seen and will not see infrastructure improvements as there is no plan to fix roads, certainly not in poor white or minority areas, but the well to do and wealthy areas have premier infrastructure, and you are too blind to even see the obvious fact of that. When disaster hits, resources don't go to fix the people in rural areas, primarily it is dedicated to fix the suburban areas, with well to do areas first on the list.

 

[Obscurity]

Conservatism is not a cult. That McCain and Romney have no comprehension we can agree. McCain doesn't have a pulse.....not sure about Romney. Diplomacy and capitulation are not the same. Likewise compromise is not capitulation. McCain went into every negotiation compromised.

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Bull**** it's not a cult. Your elected senators fall in line with Cocaine Mitch and the majority of your voters are hypocritical, triggered snowflakes who don't want dissent. The right wing has been a vast activist party for decades now. From the Tea Party to the birthers to QAnon, the Right has absolutely become cult like in its obscurantist slant toward paleoconservative trash thought.

The support among republicans for DJT is a cult-like 93%.

93%, for one of the most divisive, bitter presidents in American history. Someone who has repeatedly pushed the envelope as far as constitutional actions. Someone who has repeatedly lied and misconstrued the conversation - all because PWNING the libs is what the cult-servative base wants.

Make no mistake; modern conservatism -is- a cult.

 

[ocean515]

Bull**** it's not a cult. Your elected senators fall in line with Cocaine Mitch and the majority of your voters are hypocritical, triggered snowflakes who don't want dissent. The right wing has been a vast activist party for decades now. From the Tea Party to the birthers to QAnon, the Right has absolutely become cult like in its obscurantist slant toward paleoconservative trash thought.

The support among republicans for DJT is a cult-like 93%.

93%, for one of the most divisive, bitter presidents in American history. Someone who has repeatedly pushed the envelope as far as constitutional actions. Someone who has repeatedly lied and misconstrued the conversation - all because PWNING the libs is what the cult-servative base wants.

Make no mistake; modern conservatism -is- a cult.

You seem quite obsessed with, fixated on, and have a mania for, your political agenda and the people who push it.

 

[KevinKohler]

No matter WHAT system is used, candidates 'only have to campaign in enough places to get the votes needed to win' and by your logic could ignore nearly half the country - just like trump can 'ignore' the 100,000,000 people in California, New York and other blue states. So you're not fixing anything by just picking one group of Americans and saying 'you matter more than the rest' - you're doing the opposite of what you claim.

As a practical matter, our politics ALREADY have candidates 'take states for granted', and give more attention to 'battleground states', just as they are encouraged to take the people further from the 'center' in their parties for granted - who are they going to vote for, the other party? These are things that happen regardless of any of the issues around the EC.



No, you're talking the GREATER of two evils. You have simply decided that one part of America deserves more votes per voter than other parts of America. Why not give EVERY minority in America double votes? Gays don't count. Blacks don't count. You can find an endless less of categories like 'rural Americans' and say THEY need a more 'equal' voice than their numbers and demand they get more votes.

You are ignoring the fact that you are stealing the fair share of power of the American people not in the group you favor. You might feel resentful that big cities have more people than rural areas. Gay people might feel resentful that heterosexuals get more votes. Black people might feel resentful that white people get more votes. That's how democracy works. You are supporting inequality, period.



By the way, even your math is false and hyperbolic. there are 538 electoral votes. CA, NY, and IL combined have 104, not a majority, not even half of a majority. So, no, it's not the 'tri states of America', but even if it were, that'd be because most Americans lived in those three states, and every American deserves their one equal vote.

There are other ways to protect the individual rights and minority rights from tyranny of the majority, but your deciding to give one minority more votes than other people just because of your bias is wrong, no matter how victimized and powerless and angry you feel about not always getting your way.

I'm giving one minority SOME voice, at the expense of SOME of another's voice.

As opposed to one group having voice, and another group having none.

Think of it as progressive taxation, its the same principle.

 

[Obscurity]

You seem quite obsessed with, fixated on, and have a mania for, your political agenda and the people who push it.

No one cares what your opinion is on the matter.

 

[code1211]

Not an act, an amendment. Of course, by the time you've got enough votes in enough states for that, it would be fairly pointless for either party to protect or remove it, given that there's no combination of states that will get someone into the Presidency with a quarter of the states, but it's still important to rail against that aspect of our government & point out the irreconcilable flaws inherent to it.

The brilliance of the Electoral College is that it is a device to help avoid the tyranny of the majority.

Preventing "The Tyranny of the Majority" | The Heritage Foundation
<snip>
As the saying goes, a democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner.
<snip>

 

[ocean515]

No one cares what your opinion is on the matter.

Ditto. No one cares what your opinion is on the matter.

eace

 

[Obscurity]

Ditto. No one cares what your opinion is on the matter.

eace

Then heckle someone else with your inflammatory trash posting. You don't post substance nor do you reply to the ideas in posts you disagree with, you simply want to troll and smear and complain.

Conservatives like you are just a ****ing monster of the week T-Shirt anymore. Same **** over and over and over and over and over...

 

[ocean515]

Then heckle someone else with your inflammatory trash posting. You don't post substance nor do you reply to the ideas in posts you disagree with, you simply want to troll and smear and complain.

Conservatives like you are just a ****ing monster of the week T-Shirt anymore. Same **** over and over and over and over and over...

:2rofll:


No one cares what your opinion is.

 

[Obscurity]

:2rofll:


No one cares what your opinion is.

Like I said yesterday, vapid and inane flamebait and trolling is all you add to this forum.

It's truly sad.

 

[ocean515]

Like I said yesterday, vapid and inane flamebait and trolling is all you add to this forum.

It's truly sad.

The irony simply cascades from your posts. You ought to try and figure out why.

Post #133 proves the point, and serves as a sign post to what anyone needs to know about the far left, and how it views anyone who doesn't buckle under and toe the line they draw.

All you have is vapid and inane flame bait and trolling. You spew rhetoric about cults, and think you're adding something of substance?


Too funny.

 

[OrphanSlug]

If you cannot find common ground with fellow Americans, the problem is with you, not them.

Wrong.

I put a like on Redress' post even though it was not entirely accurate, the intention of the post was to point out where you were going with your thinking.

The basic point being the extreme of one ideology will always have a hard time finding "common ground" with the extreme of an opposing ideology, however we do rely on those that can be practical about whatever the issues are and come to an agreement based on reason. Without the extreme of either side basically stomping their feet and acting like a 3 year old that did not get their way.

But we have a bigger problem now.

It is easy to argue that our front running political parties have become so vested in their efforts based on division oriented politics, wedge issues, identity politics, what have you that the implications are in modern time seeing this with us or without us mentality forcing a division to continue. That is inherently adversarial to any sense of "finding common ground," and tends to lead to efforts to take a group one opposes and find a way to marginalize them if not entirely remove them from the table of discussion. The responses in this thread suggest everyone took the bait and returned that very thinking, and it boils down to ideological segregation for the purposes of isolation.

Craig234, your OP kicked of a chain of thinking that needs two things to be plausible. Appeal to authoritarianism as a means to force second class citizenship, which frankly is the pipe dream for both Republicans and Democrats today looking at power and control as more important in the effort to literally isolate via economics and sociology.

This is very sad times we have entered into because the nation has seen this thinking before, the idea that some are of less value simply because of ideological disagreement. My hope is that we have and will continue to see enough practical participation with less calls to join you in suggesting weaponizing government means and ends to tell someone they do not belong.

 

[Obscurity]

The irony simply cascades from your posts. You ought to try and figure out why.

Post #133 proves the point, and serves as a sign post to what anyone needs to know about the far left, and how it views anyone who doesn't buckle under and toe the line they draw.

All you have is vapid and inane flame bait and trolling. You spew rhetoric about cults, and think you're adding something of substance?


Too funny.

:allhail

 

[OrphanSlug]

I'm giving one minority SOME voice, at the expense of SOME of another's voice.

As opposed to one group having voice, and another group having none.

Think of it as progressive taxation, its the same principle.

That will not end the way you think it will, simply because of the assumption that those in power under one ideology will do something for opposing ideology while at the same time intentionally marginalizing them as a minority.

 

[Eriech]

Bull**** it's not a cult. Your elected senators fall in line with Cocaine Mitch and the majority of your voters are hypocritical, triggered snowflakes who don't want dissent. The right wing has been a vast activist party for decades now. From the Tea Party to the birthers to QAnon, the Right has absolutely become cult like in its obscurantist slant toward paleoconservative trash thought.

The support among republicans for DJT is a cult-like 93%.

93%, for one of the most divisive, bitter presidents in American history. Someone who has repeatedly pushed the envelope as far as constitutional actions. Someone who has repeatedly lied and misconstrued the conversation - all because PWNING the libs is what the cult-servative base wants.

Make no mistake; modern conservatism -is- a cult.

The cult of Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Jay and our founders.

Yours is of Marx, Mao, Che, Alinsky





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[Obscurity]

The cult of Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Jay and our founders.

Yours is of Marx, Mao, Che, Alinsky





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Typical trash commentary. See a "leftist", shout "socialism."

Your cries of wolf have fallen on deaf ears and bear no more weight, sir.

Your cult is not of the founders. It's of the evangelicals, the plutocrats and oligarchy.

 

[rickc]

Well the only way i see getting this mess straightened is for the democrats to have a filibuster proof majority in both houses of congress and the white house.

Otherwise all they can do is try to keep the damage of the madman and the owned by the rich republicans in congress to a minimum.

There is no common ground and there should be no compromise by the democrats!

 

[Craig234]

It is easy to argue that our front running political parties have become so vested in their efforts based on division oriented politics, wedge issues, identity politics, what have you that the implications are in modern time seeing this with us or without us mentality forcing a division to continue. That is inherently adversarial to any sense of "finding common ground," and tends to lead to efforts to take a group one opposes and find a way to marginalize them if not entirely remove them from the table of discussion. The responses in this thread suggest everyone took the bait and returned that very thinking, and it boils down to ideological segregation for the purposes of isolation.

I take issue with your phrases 'returned', or 'bait' for that matter, they're not accurate; to your other point here:

Go to your supermarket. How do they do at meeting your needs for supporting your religious views? At providing you financial help for an automobile? At weeding your yard? None at all. Why? They're a business about selling you groceries, and profiting while doing it, and that's about it. Don't expect those other things.

Unfortunately, while government is supposed to be about 'the good of the people' and address many broad issues, the very nature of our government has changed because our economic structure has changed.

When our country was created, the citizen was king. Government was designed to be 'by, for, and of the people', government by their consent, serving the people's interests.

In the last 150 years, our economy has changed to make the citizen far less important, with the rise of massive organizations and concentrations of wealth that dwarf the people, and our politics have not been updated for that, officially.

So you have Joe Citizen who cares about this and that, and you have Boeing doing hundreds of billions of dollars in business with the government as one of many huge, powerful entities, and we want to pretend 'the citizen comes first, they're king', but the realities are much different.

Given the massive concentration of power and wealth we have allowed to put the American people like ants in a forest of corporations that dwarf them, and the fact that these organizations have weaponized their wealth in our political system to try to defeat the people's ability to challenge their interests when they conflict with the public good, it's all too predictable what's happened, that government has so often become the servant of these wealthy interests, while the people's power has been
greatly reduced, with the best study of the issue finding the people have zero influence on Congress today (not on every member, but on the overall votes).

Yes, for various reasons, everyone wants to continue the myth that 'the people rule', however much the evidence shows otherwise, and that has created a quite dishonest, broken system.

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[Craig234]

The two major parties have largely 'taken side' of these powerful donors. Some try to buy both parties; the George W. Bush administration launched a project to declare war on that practice and to force companies to give all their donations to Republicans, called the "K Street Project", which told companies that they could write their own bills if they shifted all their donations to Republicans ("pay to play") and that they'd get no legislation if they did not. They required companies to put Republican operatives into their political donation organizations to monitor compliance.

Others have taken sides. Big Tobacco was a good example of a Republican sponsor, while Democrats fought for public health. Insurance companies, Big Pharma (who was the Republican Party's biggest donor when Bush passed the Medicare Part D scam to give away hundreds of billions of tax dollars to Big Pharma by increased spending on drugs which prohibited the government from any negotiating of discounts). Democrats of course are allied with organizations such as the trial lawyers (against the insurance companies backing Republicans), unions, etc.

A third faction remembers the American people: the progressive wing of the Democratic Party.

Because these organizations are so powerful, they tend to dominate what government does. Yet, because this IS still a democracy, and votes are needed for one side or the other to win, and there are trillions of dollars at stake, it's now big business to 'buy' voters, who are now treated as targets of expensive, every day, marketing to win their loyalty for their vote. Expensive, sophisticated media and advertising is used to do this. And everything under the sun - abortion, guns, poverty, race, war, education and healthcare, anything is simply a weapon in that war for voters. There's little room for 'debate'; if you're a Republican, then supporting big oil's policy on the climate is simply what you'll support, it's not about 'rational debate' determining your position. You will be handed the 'talking point' and you will repeat them.

That's the supermarket analogy above - government is now largely about serving the interests of the gigantic, powerful interests, where three Americans have as much wealth as half the country, and not about the people, other than to treat them as targets for their votes, using advertising, weaponized issues, wedge politics, money, etc. People looking to government for the people's interests is like looking to the Supermarket for spiritual support, to a large extent (those progressive politicians again being the exception).

Furthermore, that loyalty is increased when the other side is treat not as 'fellow well-intentioned citizens whose arguments you should consider', but demonized - the brain literally bypasses the rational function when it comes to 'partisan' things, and that demonization helps keep loyalty, and increases polarization, but it helps win elections which is all that matters.

This is not the 'citizen rule' of a rational public, informed by a free press, that was intended. There's little room for citizens to challenge wrong policies using their paltry free speech in the world of today's mass media. The real decisions are made by a few at a whole different level, and the public's only role is to be lied to as needed.

This thread is about how that's gotten even worse for Republican voters, for Democrats to discuss how bad it's gotten - there's no point in talking to the 'cult' about their being in a cult. When has that every helped? .001% of the time maybe? That's not demonizing them, as you imply. But they are propagandized to demonize Democrats.

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