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Wanted: Conservative explanation of perpetual low wages

Winston

Winston

the enemy within
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Okay, so I'm often told that I am deficient or a failure in some way by the conservative posters around here, because I am paid low wages. My line of work is food production and I've been in the field for roughly 15 years. I make pretty low wages and always have. I understand in some cases, people do pay only what they can afford and not a nickel more, especially in small businesses. But, there are also some businesses where I felt exploited. Given that in the exploitative situations, my labor led to tens of thousands of dollars in profits. And my piece was a mere 3-400 dollars a week.

I recently started a job at a bakery. My wage is low. I'm not expecting to make the big bucks, but, I enjoy the hours, and it will hold me over until I can find something that pays better. (I'm still looking and applying at places that pay above $10.00/hour)

But, it has come to my attention that the head baker there, who has been employed there since the 90's. (I'm not talking the floor manager, rather the one tasked with most of the baking.) He is still making starvation wages after two decades of seniority. My question is, if these jobs top out at around $12.00/hour, are most bakers failures in life then? See When I argue economics with conservatives here, it inevitably ends with a proclamation that the reason low wage people can't go on vacations or to the doctor is because they have failed in life.

There's a logical hiccup there when you look at someone like our baker here, who is clearly not a failure. He has been dedicated. He has shown personal responsibility and he has shown a willingness to work hard, long hours.. and his end game is $12.00/hour? That's okay with you?

My solution is easy: The market has failed him and the government must step in. He should be afforded at least healthcare and 7 days vacation. And don't give me that crap that he should've made better life decisions so he didn't "wind up in some dead end job." There's nothing wrong with baking bread and selling it. If you're prepared to go that route, I hope every time you eat a piece of bread, you think to yourself some lazy piece of **** baked this.
 
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Winston said:
Okay, so I'm often told that I am deficient or a failure in some way by the conservative posters around here, because I am paid low wages. My line of work is food production and I've been in the field for roughly 15 years. I make pretty low wages and always have. I understand in some cases, people do pay only what they can afford and not a nickel more, especially in small businesses. But, there are also some businesses where I felt exploited. Given that in the exploitative situations, my labor led to tens of thousands of dollars in profits. And my piece was a mere 3-400 dollars a week.

I recently started a job at a bakery. My wage is low. I'm not expecting to make the big bucks, but, I enjoy the hours, and it will hold me over until I can find something that pays better. (I'm still looking and applying at places that pay above $10.00/hour)

But, it has come to my attention that the head baker there, who has been employed there since the 90's. (I'm not talking the floor manager, rather the one tasked with most of the baking.) He is still making starvation wages after nearly two decades of seniority. My question is, if these jobs top out at around $12.00/hour, are most bakers failures in life then? See When I argue economics with conservatives here, it inevitably ends with a proclamation that the reason low wage people can't go on vacations or to the doctor is because they have failed in life.

There's a logical hiccup there when you look at someone like our baker here, who is clearly not a failure. He has been dedicated. He has shown personal responsibility and he has shown a willingness to work hard, long hours.. and his end game is $12.00/hour? That's okay with you?

My solution is easy: The market has failed him and the government must step in. He should be afforded at least healthcare and 7 days vacation. And don't give me that crap that he should've made better life decisions so he didn't "wind up in some dead end job." There's nothing wrong with baking bread and selling it. If you're prepared to go that route, I hope every time you eat a piece of bread, you think to yourself some lazy piece of **** baked this.
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Well he voluntarily continues to accept this wage and not seek out a higher wage at a different baker, not negotiate a higher wage, or start his own business. A friend of mine is married a Mexican immigrant from Oaxaca and she is pulling down more money then him with a home based baking and catering business, so clearly it’s not impossible to make good money as a baker.

So his low wages are because of decisions he is making. That doesn’t make him a failure, it simply means his life was guided by different decisions and thus different results then others.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well he voluntarily continues to accept this wage and not seek out a higher wage at a different baker, not negotiate a higher wage, or start his own business. A friend of mine is married a Mexican immigrant from Oaxaca and she is pulling down more money then him with a home based baking and catering business, so clearly it’s not impossible to make good money as a baker.

So his low wages are because of decisions he is making
Click to expand...

So, he should quit and compete against the owner? That seems unreasonable.
 
Winston said:
So, he should quit and compete against the owner? That seems unreasonable.
Click to expand...

Why would that be unreasonable? People use skills learned at wage work to start their own businesses all the time.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Why would that be unreasonable? People use skills learned at wage work to start their own businesses all the time.
Click to expand...

I understand but, not everyone can just quit and start a business. If the solution for every baker was to start their own bakery, we would have 25 more bakeries in town.
 
Winston said:
Okay, so I'm often told that I am deficient or a failure in some way by the conservative posters around here, because I am paid low wages. My line of work is food production and I've been in the field for roughly 15 years. I make pretty low wages and always have. I understand in some cases, people do pay only what they can afford and not a nickel more, especially in small businesses. But, there are also some businesses where I felt exploited. Given that in the exploitative situations, my labor led to tens of thousands of dollars in profits. And my piece was a mere 3-400 dollars a week.

I recently started a job at a bakery. My wage is low. I'm not expecting to make the big bucks, but, I enjoy the hours, and it will hold me over until I can find something that pays better. (I'm still looking and applying at places that pay above $10.00/hour)

But, it has come to my attention that the head baker there, who has been employed there since the 90's. (I'm not talking the floor manager, rather the one tasked with most of the baking.) He is still making starvation wages after two decades of seniority. My question is, if these jobs top out at around $12.00/hour, are most bakers failures in life then? See When I argue economics with conservatives here, it inevitably ends with a proclamation that the reason low wage people can't go on vacations or to the doctor is because they have failed in life.

There's a logical hiccup there when you look at someone like our baker here, who is clearly not a failure. He has been dedicated. He has shown personal responsibility and he has shown a willingness to work hard, long hours.. and his end game is $12.00/hour? That's okay with you?

My solution is easy: The market has failed him and the government must step in. He should be afforded at least healthcare and 7 days vacation. And don't give me that crap that he should've made better life decisions so he didn't "wind up in some dead end job." There's nothing wrong with baking bread and selling it. If you're prepared to go that route, I hope every time you eat a piece of bread, you think to yourself some lazy piece of **** baked this.
Click to expand...

Here's your explanation: Supply, Demand, and the Invisible Hand: Equilibrium: Mr. Demand, Meet Mr. Supply

The "invisible hand" are people like you, the head baker and the company making choices.
 
Winston said:
I understand but, not everyone can just quit and start a business. If the solution for every baker was to start their own bakery, we would have 25 more bakeries in town.
Click to expand...

Then maybe baking is the wrong racket if you want to make a lot of money.

Clearly the local labor market values a baker of his experience level at 12/hour if wage work.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Then maybe baking is the wrong racket if you want to make a lot of money.

Clearly the local labor market values a baker of his experience level at 12/hour if wage work.
Click to expand...

People aren't asking to get rich, they are just asking to get by. Basically, most people I know want enough money so they don't have to worry about money. $12.00 is about 25k a year. It's hard to raise a family on that.
 
Winston said:
There's a logical hiccup there when you look at someone like our baker here, who is clearly not a failure. He has been dedicated. He has shown personal responsibility and he has shown a willingness to work hard, long hours.. and his end game is $12.00/hour? That's okay with you?

M.
Click to expand...
Fine by me. That's they way it works. Moral of the story. If you want to make more money-find a differnet job.

It's very dangerous when economically pignorant central planners like ( insert any of the 20+ dem candidates) arrogantly determine what a job should pay.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Well he voluntarily continues to accept this wage and not seek out a higher wage at a different baker, not negotiate a higher wage, or start his own business. A friend of mine is married a Mexican immigrant from Oaxaca and she is pulling down more money then him with a home based baking and catering business, so clearly it’s not impossible to make good money as a baker.

So his low wages are because of decisions he is making. That doesn’t make him a failure, it simply means his life was guided by different decisions and thus different results then others.
Click to expand...

What happens when all the bakers decide that they can no longer survive on $12.00 an hour? Who will do the baking? Maybe immigrants from poorer countries where $12.00 an hour is a fortune? What about when even that is considered too much money for the job? Maybe we can bring in illegal laborers and force them to work for less than minimum wage under threat of deportation?
 
It's simple. Labor (which is an antiseptic way of saying "people"), is a commodity. You need to get used to looking at yourself as a ton of coal or x GB of RAM.
 
lwf said:
What happens when all the bakers decide that they can no longer survive on $12.00 an hour? Who will do the baking? Maybe immigrants from poorer countries where $12.00 an hour is a fortune? What about when even that is considered too much money for the job? Maybe we can bring in illegal laborers and force them to work for less than minimum wage under threat of deportation?
Click to expand...

There would be a shortage of bakers, if the consumers then decide they want baked goods made by someone else and are willing to pay then prices will increase and thus wages, if not then bakers will disappear as a career field.
 
Winston said:
Okay, so I'm often told that I am deficient or a failure in some way by the conservative posters around here, because I am paid low wages. My line of work is food production and I've been in the field for roughly 15 years. I make pretty low wages and always have. I understand in some cases, people do pay only what they can afford and not a nickel more, especially in small businesses. But, there are also some businesses where I felt exploited. Given that in the exploitative situations, my labor led to tens of thousands of dollars in profits. And my piece was a mere 3-400 dollars a week.

I recently started a job at a bakery. My wage is low. I'm not expecting to make the big bucks, but, I enjoy the hours, and it will hold me over until I can find something that pays better. (I'm still looking and applying at places that pay above $10.00/hour)

But, it has come to my attention that the head baker there, who has been employed there since the 90's. (I'm not talking the floor manager, rather the one tasked with most of the baking.) He is still making starvation wages after two decades of seniority. My question is, if these jobs top out at around $12.00/hour, are most bakers failures in life then? See When I argue economics with conservatives here, it inevitably ends with a proclamation that the reason low wage people can't go on vacations or to the doctor is because they have failed in life.

There's a logical hiccup there when you look at someone like our baker here, who is clearly not a failure. He has been dedicated. He has shown personal responsibility and he has shown a willingness to work hard, long hours.. and his end game is $12.00/hour? That's okay with you?

My solution is easy: The market has failed him and the government must step in. He should be afforded at least healthcare and 7 days vacation. And don't give me that crap that he should've made better life decisions so he didn't "wind up in some dead end job." There's nothing wrong with baking bread and selling it. If you're prepared to go that route, I hope every time you eat a piece of bread, you think to yourself some lazy piece of **** baked this.
Click to expand...

Walmart pays people in their bakery more than $12/hr...
 
Winston said:
My solution is easy: The market has failed him and the government must step in. He should be afforded at least healthcare and 7 days vacation. And don't give me that crap that he should've made better life decisions so he didn't "wind up in some dead end job." There's nothing wrong with baking bread and selling it. If you're prepared to go that route, I hope every time you eat a piece of bread, you think to yourself some lazy piece of **** baked this.
Click to expand...

Every job needs to be done, whether it's a baker and whether it's collecting garbage. All of these jobs ought to afford basic necessities without debt and with vacation time.
 
Winston said:
So, he should quit and compete against the owner? That seems unreasonable.
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It seems like the advice that would lead to unrest in a society. Why is there no pressure placed on the business owner to pay his employees better?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Why would that be unreasonable? People use skills learned at wage work to start their own businesses all the time.
Click to expand...

How is a guy making $12 an hour supposed to be able to afford to do that?
 
Winston said:
I understand but, not everyone can just quit and start a business. If the solution for every baker was to start their own bakery, we would have 25 more bakeries in town.[/QUaTE]

Then if 25 bakers open up and baking becomes unprofitable, you create a better or cheaper or new product and rise above the rest, or you move on to candy making.

A business owner is under no obligation to make your life better. Neither is the government.

Frankly if I had been a baker for years and had not risen above minimum wage, I'd start by looking in a mirror.
Click to expand...
 
KLATTU said:
Fine by me. That's they way it works. Moral of the story. If you want to make more money-find a differnet job.

It's very dangerous when economically pignorant central planners like ( insert any of the 20+ dem candidates) arrogantly determine what a job should pay.
Click to expand...

So then who is going to do the baking?
 
kitsune said:
It's simple. Labor (which is an antiseptic way of saying "people"), is a commodity. You need to get used to looking at yourself as a ton of coal or x GB of RAM.
Click to expand...

And we wonder why depression is on the rise.
 
jimbo said:
A business owner is under no obligation to make your life better. Neither is the government.

Frankly if I had been a baker for years and had not risen above minimum wage, I'd start by looking in a mirror.
Click to expand...

Why is all of the onus on the guy with fewer means, not the business owner who is presumably richer?
 
phattonez said:
So then who is going to do the baking?
Click to expand...

nobody. Then ,if people want baked good, the demand will outstrip supply and wages will go up.
 
KLATTU said:
nobody. Then ,if people want baked good, the demand will outstrip supply and wages will go up.
Click to expand...

We all know what's really going on. Companies are exploiting immigrant labor to keep wages down, and taking advantage of public benefits so that they don't have to pay their employees as much. The solution is simple: E-Verify, cut visas, and make companies pay for the public benefits that their employees get. Then watch as wages rise.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Why would that be unreasonable? People use skills learned at wage work to start their own businesses all the time.
Click to expand...

i did it. At one point in my life I was going through a divorce. I had no job, no place to live. No real prospects. Everything I owned was packed in a $300 VW. That lasted less than a day. Two years later I started my own business. Never looked back.

The only thing I asked of government was to stay out of my way.
 
Winston said:
Okay, so I'm often told that I am deficient or a failure in some way by the conservative posters around here, because I am paid low wages. My line of work is food production and I've been in the field for roughly 15 years. I make pretty low wages and always have. I understand in some cases, people do pay only what they can afford and not a nickel more, especially in small businesses. But, there are also some businesses where I felt exploited. Given that in the exploitative situations, my labor led to tens of thousands of dollars in profits. And my piece was a mere 3-400 dollars a week.

I recently started a job at a bakery. My wage is low. I'm not expecting to make the big bucks, but, I enjoy the hours, and it will hold me over until I can find something that pays better. (I'm still looking and applying at places that pay above $10.00/hour)

But, it has come to my attention that the head baker there, who has been employed there since the 90's. (I'm not talking the floor manager, rather the one tasked with most of the baking.) He is still making starvation wages after two decades of seniority. My question is, if these jobs top out at around $12.00/hour, are most bakers failures in life then? See When I argue economics with conservatives here, it inevitably ends with a proclamation that the reason low wage people can't go on vacations or to the doctor is because they have failed in life.

There's a logical hiccup there when you look at someone like our baker here, who is clearly not a failure. He has been dedicated. He has shown personal responsibility and he has shown a willingness to work hard, long hours.. and his end game is $12.00/hour? That's okay with you?

My solution is easy: The market has failed him and the government must step in. He should be afforded at least healthcare and 7 days vacation. And don't give me that crap that he should've made better life decisions so he didn't "wind up in some dead end job." There's nothing wrong with baking bread and selling it. If you're prepared to go that route, I hope every time you eat a piece of bread, you think to yourself some lazy piece of **** baked this.
Click to expand...

It's greed, plain and simple. THe owners are taking too much of the wealth. You used to be able to make a living off jobs like that, and the owners and CEOs of corporations would still be rich, living nicely and rewarded for their success. But Reagan and the 80's made greed is good a thing, the rich started getting all the tax breaks, then buying politicians to keep it that way with their increased wealth, corporations got larger and larger and more powerful where they could underpay their workers while their execs and shareholders lavish themselves with all the profits.

THis is the biggest issue facing this country, this incredible wealth disparity. if it wasn't for the bailouts and stimulus, we could easily be in another Great Depression. And the wealth disparity is ever great than the days leading to the Great Depression. No country is ever going to strive with such wealth disparity.

And its not just service workers, even college educated workers in more skilled jobs are not getting paid well. And they have to work longer hours with less and less benefits, less vacation time. jobs used to be 9-5 with a 1 hour lunch break, now its 8-5. And don't even get me starfted on how many people are asked to work overtime without added pay

The ironic thing about some conservatives, they think service workers are lazy, they don't deserve pay, but think their manufacturing or coal mining jobs deserves livable wages. Anybody can do those jobs just as much as being a service worker. It's the typical selfishness of them, they deserve to be paid better, but others do not
 
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