Death by Need

daeler said:

This sentence doesn't make sense, Asylum is about why you are coming here. In simple terms fleeing a corrupt government. He wasn't fleeing the government he just wanted a job.

By the way, do you agree with Trump that we should abolish our asylum policy?

No I don't

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It is the decision of the immigration judge to make as to whether a man is truly seeking asylum or using it as an excuse to come into the country. It is not Trump's decision to make. The laws already are set and all Trump is supposed to do is enforce them. He has no right to make it easier or harder to apply for asylum.

This is very simple and I have trouble understanding why you cannot understand the concept.

Mason66 said:

That he was not seeking asylum, rather that he was trying to get into the country to work and make money.

Does that change anything for you as you are hanging your hat on blaming Trump for this man not being able to apply for asylum?

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Do you even read what you type? Asylum seekers MUST seek work once given asylum, that's how they survive. Everyone is freaking out and Trump is holding men, women and children as hostages to create a crisis. Detaining them in inhumane conditions is a violation of international law.

Asylum has two basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country. Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group.

ttwtt78640 said:

You seem to acquire difficulty with reading comprehension when asked anything.

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What does your question have to do with my post?

WCH said:

IMO, occupancy.

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Because we have no open land in this country? You should come visit New England.

tres borrachos said:

Because we have no open land in this country? You should come visit New England.

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You should invite them to move there. You'll grow to love them, I'm sure.

Luckyone said:

It is the decision of the immigration judge to make as to whether a man is truly seeking asylum or using it as an excuse to come into the country. It is not Trump's decision to make. The laws already are set and all Trump is supposed to do is enforce them. He has no right to make it easier or harder to apply for asylum.

This is very simple and I have trouble understanding why you cannot understand the concept.

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Probably because I am not arguing that. You seem to be confused with what I am saying or with the story. The only part I would disagree with in your statement is the judge. The judge is only brought in if there is a question on whether the policy applies or not. If it is obvious that it doesn't then no judge is needed.

WCH said:

You should invite them to move there. You'll grow to love them, I'm sure.

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I can't invite anyone to move here. I'm no longer on the right so my days of dictating to other adults are over.

tres borrachos said:

I can't invite anyone to move here. I'm no longer on the right so my days of dictating to other adults are over.

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If you think of a simple invite as a demand, you have gone over to the dark side. #snowflakecity

WCH said:

If you think of a simple invite as a demand, you have gone over to the dark side. #snowflakecity

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Okay, and I don't invite people to move anywhere either. I'm not on the right anymore. I don't try to tell others where to live, who to marry, and so on.

I also don't lie about America being at capacity.

And unlike you, I've been out of my house and know how much land we have in this country. Try it sometime.

Luckyone said:

In no way is this post supporting illegal immigration into our country but there is a case to be made for humanity taking a place in our hearts.

Here is a photo of a father and daughter who drowned because they were seeking asylum but were not allowed to even apply so the father tried to swim across the Rio Grande to give his daughter a better life:

View attachment 67258893



Day by day the world is getting to be a more dangerous place to live and in most cases there is very little a person can do to prevent it from happening. Nonetheless, we all have a duty to seek better living conditions and especially when we have small children that we are bound to protect in every way.

Seeking asylum is presently legal by our laws but Trump has seen fit to make it more difficult and even impossible to do that. Asylum is and has been a choice that our judges are supposed to make on a need basis. Up until Trump became president, asylum was something that was accepted. In addition and for the past 240 years, the United States has been a country where we welcomed people to our shores and where we offered humanity, something that is not found in many parts of the world.

It needs to be mentioned that India has a population of 1.4 billion people (versus ours of 360 million, which is 4 times smaller) and we are 3 times larger in area size than India is and yet:



India is more humane to asylum seekers than we are.

I believe that what Trump is doing against people that are seeking asylum legally is abhorrent, not only from a humanity point of view but from the fact that the beacon of Justice that the United States has been in the world for the past 240 years is being extinguished by a heartless sociopath that values nothing in life other than making money.

What do you think?

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Democratic countries need to very seriously consider being imperialistic again. If all the good guys leave these countries that are in trouble to go to better countries then the world will have many more countries filled with nothing but very bad people while all of these "immigrants" strain the resources of the countries to which they go. We're going about this all wrong. The good countries of the world need to invade these countries, topple the reasons why immigrants leave in the first place, and turn these countries into good democratic countries. That way, 100 years in the future we will have many more good countries and less bad countries, making the world much safer overall. So, the US needs to invade Central America and bring the US to them instead of immigrants coming to the US and leaving behind evil countries. Right now, with the course we are on, in 100 years our system will be overwhelmed with dirt poor asylum seekers, making our country weaker and then having to contend with several more evil countries on the world stage.

HumblePi said:

Do you even read what you type? Asylum seekers MUST seek work once given asylum, that's how they survive. Everyone is freaking out and Trump is holding men, women and children as hostages to create a crisis. Detaining them in inhumane conditions is a violation of international law.

Asylum has two basic requirements. First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country. Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group.

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I am not sure what you were responding to, but the mans own mother said he was not fleeing any kind of danger, but rather looking for money, so he was not seeking asylum.

Nothing you posted had anything to do with this case.

daeler said:

Probably because I am not arguing that. You seem to be confused with what I am saying or with the story. The only part I would disagree with in your statement is the judge. The judge is only brought in if there is a question on whether the policy applies or not. If it is obvious that it doesn't then no judge is needed.

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I did a bit more research this morning after reading your post and it did change my mind "slightly". I did find out that these asylum cases do not get to a judge until they are "assigned" by the border to people to be just that "asylum cases". This means that people must first get to the border people and apply.

The drowned man was trying to apply (whether rightfully or not is not of importance) but given that there is a new "metering" system in place that has reduced the amount of people that are "able" to apply, he was basically waiting to get on the "waiting list to apply" but had no time frame on how long it could be.

Before 2016, and in some cases as recently as six months ago, they would have had no problem and no delay. But for the last several months, the Trump administration has made a practice of limiting the number of asylum seekers allowed to enter the US each day — a policy it calls “metering.” It’s the counterpart of the Trump administration’s months-long crackdown on asylum seekers entering the US illegally — telling those who do try to come legally that there’s no room for them, and ordering them to wait.

They don’t say how long the wait will be. And there’s no official way for asylum seekers to hold their spot or secure an appointment, no guarantee that they’ll ever be allowed to cross.

And so asylum seekers wait, for days or weeks or (increasingly) months: sometimes in migrant shelters whose capacity has stretched to the breaking point, sometimes huddling together on bridges, sleeping on the street, in the cold, vulnerable to the violence they hoped to escape in their home countries.

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As such, the decision the drowned man had to make was whether to wait for who knows how long just to apply. Given that he was probably not going to be granted the asylum he sought, he made the decision to cross the river. His lack of patience was a contributing factor in his death.

It does put a bit more responsibility on the man's shoulders and less on the administration's shoulders but the reality is that this "metering" system was installed by the Trump administration to reduce the number of applicants. It still puts some responsibility on Trump. The man is still likely to have tried to get into the country illegally but the longer time to find out if he did not qualify is on our shoulders and not his.

If he had at least been able to get on a waiting list and given some sort of time frame (even if long), he might have waited. The reality is that he had to wait just to get on a waiting list. That is just plain wrong.

Luckyone said:

I did a bit more research this morning after reading your post and it did change my mind "slightly". I did find out that these asylum cases do not get to a judge until they are "assigned" by the border to people to be just that "asylum cases". This means that people must first get to the border people and apply.

The drowned man was trying to apply (whether rightfully or not is not of importance) but given that there is a new "metering" system in place that has reduced the amount of people that are "able" to apply, he was basically waiting to get on the "waiting list to apply".



As such, the decision the drowned man had to make was whether to wait for who knows how long just to apply. Given that he was probably not going to be granted the asylum he sought, he made the decision to cross the river.

It does put a bit more responsibility on the man's shoulders and less on the administration's shoulder but the reality is that this "metering" system was installed by the Trump administration to reduce the number of applicants. It still puts some responsibility on Trump

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You should care about fake asylum claims. It bogs down the system and makes it harder for those that have a legit claim.

What? The man actually bears some of the responsibility for his decisions? I thought illegal immigrants were holy, blameless creatures.

X Factor said:

You should care about fake asylum claims. It bogs down the system and makes it harder for those that have a legit claim.

What? The man actually bears some of the responsibility for his decisions? I thought illegal immigrants were holy, blameless creatures.

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People make false claims all the time to get what they want. Trump is the prime example of this. He lies all the time to get what he wants. How can you have the hypocrisy of saying that we should care about "fake asylum claims" when you support the king of "fake claims"?

Pure and unadulterated HYPOCRISY!

Luckyone said:

I did a bit more research this morning after reading your post and it did change my mind "slightly". I did find out that these asylum cases do not get to a judge until they are "assigned" by the border to people to be just that "asylum cases". This means that people must first get to the border people and apply.

The drowned man was trying to apply (whether rightfully or not is not of importance) but given that there is a new "metering" system in place that has reduced the amount of people that are "able" to apply, he was basically waiting to get on the "waiting list to apply" but had no time frame on how long it could be.



As such, the decision the drowned man had to make was whether to wait for who knows how long just to apply. Given that he was probably not going to be granted the asylum he sought, he made the decision to cross the river. His lack of patience was a contributing factor in his death.

It does put a bit more responsibility on the man's shoulders and less on the administration's shoulders but the reality is that this "metering" system was installed by the Trump administration to reduce the number of applicants. It still puts some responsibility on Trump. The man is still likely to have tried to get into the country illegally but the longer time to find out if he did not qualify is on our shoulders and not his.

If he had at least been able to get on a waiting list and given some sort of time frame (even if long), he might have waited. The reality is that he had to wait just to get on a waiting list. That is just plain wrong.

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The whole thing is a huge cluster f***, Personally I think the immigration laws need revamped, including the idea of asylum. With the reality of what is going on in the countries south of the US you would think the Government would realize that refugees are just a matter of time and prepare for the eventuality. It seems that like most things the government doesn't care and doesn't want to bother. We are going to continue to see people dying in this crossing until things improve in Mexico and on our border. Too many cartels in Mexico and unprepared people in the Border Patrol in the US.

They just authorized 4.5bil? in aid to the border so we will see how that helps.

daeler said:

The whole thing is a huge cluster f***, Personally I think the immigration laws need revamped, including the idea of asylum. With the reality of what is going on in the countries south of the US you would think the Government would realize that refugees are just a matter of time and prepare for the eventuality. It seems that like most things the government doesn't care and doesn't want to bother. We are going to continue to see people dying in this crossing until things improve in Mexico and on our border. Too many cartels in Mexico and unprepared people in the Border Patrol in the US.

They just authorized 4.5bil? in aid to the border so we will see how that helps.

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In my personal opinion, everything in life should come down to having humanity. A humane people finds ways to solve problems or at least have the problems not get so critical to human life.

We are all humans and everyone of us, whether rich or poor, intelligent or stupid, talented or dependent, white or brown/black, Republican or Democrat or Cristian, Atheist, or any other religion, have a right to the pursuit of life, liberty, freedom, happiness or simply a better life.

A person that is humane understands that and will look to find ways to compromise so that the unalienable rights of all humans is respected.

Evidently, there are physical and economical problems to having open borders that have to be respected given that when things go beyond our ability to cope with them, things do not get better, they get worse and that is not a solution to anything.

Nonetheless, as long as you approach problems with humanity, humanity will respect you back and work with you to find answers. When you try to "impose" your will based solely on your opinion you will run into the problem that people in general will not work with you and doing anything alone is a sure way for things to get worse or even fail.

This is the problem with Trump. He is a sociopath that tries to bully his opinion on everyone and automatically that causes people's defenses to go up and not get bullied. Instead of working together, what it engenders is a feud/fight and that is pure an unadulterated stupidity as fights only mean that many people will get hurt.

This is what I have been trying to say about Trump from day one. He is destined to fail and fail miserable because he has no morals, ethics, principles or most importantly humanity.

What is even worse is that people that are NOT sociopaths (most Trump supporters) and that should have some humanity have suddenly lost their own morals, ethics, principles and humanity, giving the sociopath more power to destroy and raze everything that is worthwhile.

Mason66 said:

I am not sure what you were responding to, but the mans own mother said he was not fleeing any kind of danger, but rather looking for money, so he was not seeking asylum.

Nothing you posted had anything to do with this case.

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It has everything to do with the illegal immigration statistics and the created 'crisis' which has now become a humanitarian crisis thanks to the policies of Jeff Sessions and John Kelly -- who, by the way, is on the Board of Directors of this company that runs the Homestead detention center. Wow, what a coincidence.

Luckyone said:

because Mexico does not offer the ability of a better life.

I lived in Mexico for 21 years and if there is one thing I can say about that country is "if you are rich, you will stay rich and if you are poor, you will stay poor". In addition, Mexico is not a safe country either given the amount of drug cartels there that rule a whole lot of the country, much like in the other Latin countries from where they came trying to flee such conditions.

The United States remains the best nation in the world where a person can rise to the top even if you started at the bottom and in the process be safer than in most other places in the world. I don't know what other countries that is also true, but Mexico is not one of them.

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I am sure I am not the first to point this out, Luckyone, but it must be clear: Asylum is not meant as a means to find a better life. It is meant as a means to ensure you have a life. The United States should accept asylum claims of those people whose governments are either seeking their deaths (such as the Burmese Myanmar regime against the Rohingya), or stand aside to let others kill them (such as the Rwandan government letting Hutu militias slaughter the Tutsi). That is the purpose of asylum.

Felis Leo said:

I am sure I am not the first to point this out, Luckyone, but it must be clear: Asylum is not meant as a means to find a better life. It is meant as a means to ensure you have a life. The United States should accept asylum claims of those people whose governments are either seeking their deaths (such as the Burmese Myanmar regime against the Rohingya), or stand aside to let others kill them (such as the Rwandan government letting Hutu militias slaughter the Tutsi). That is the purpose of asylum.

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That definition has not been contested by me at no time.

Luckyone said:

...What is even worse is that people that are NOT sociopaths (most Trump supporters) and that should have some humanity have suddenly lost their own morals, ethics, principles and humanity, giving the sociopath more power to destroy and raze everything that is worthwhile.

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I understand there's a minority of Don voters, who believe he holds no ill will towards all people and that he does have some compassion and ethics. But most Trump supporters?!? His followers give him an 80% approval rating, they can't all be that ignorant. No, the vast majority of his supporters know full well what kind of man he is, yet they continue to shout his chants.

So if they know he is inhumain, at what point do his supporters become as inhumane as their leader? At what point do people who knowingly support evil, become sociopaths themselves? You can tell a lot about people by the company they keep...

SoCal said:

I understand there's a minority of Don voters, who believe he holds no ill will towards all people and that he does have some compassion and ethics. But most Trump supporters?!? His followers give him an 80% approval rating, they can't all be that ignorant. No, the vast majority of his supporters know full well what kind of man he is, yet they continue to shout his chants.

So if they know he is inhumain, at what point do his supporters become as inhumane as their leader? At what point do people who knowingly support evil, become sociopaths themselves? You can tell a lot about people by the company they keep...

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I understand what you are saying and I often feel like that when talking to some of the Trump supporters on this message board.

By the same token, I am 73 years old and having been a talkative and friendly salesman most of my life and having met many, many people, I have found that there is a lot of ignorance out there. I still smile when I hear people say things that are so ridiculous and not based on truth that I have to ask myself "how can they believe that? especially these days when fact finding is so much easier than it was 50 years ago". Stupid things like "phones cause cancer" or "the U.S. government deliberately created AIDS" or even such small things like "you need to eat breakfast before you take vitamins".

These things do not only sound ridiculous but are ridiculous and yet there is a huge amount of the population that still believes things like this and you cannot change their minds even in cases like with people that love you and listen to you (I say this because the vitamin thing is what my own wife believes).

As such, it is often pure ignorance and a lack of desire to check the truth or even more, believe what you read or what others tell you. As it is, people would rather believe their own lies than accept they made a mistake and are wrong. Being wrong is not something most people like and even less accept.

Given that you need to give people the benefit of the doubt, a bit more patience and understanding is required. Then again, there is only "so much" patience and understanding that makes sense. When that is finished, only ignore is a solution given that from there things can only go south. I now have 23 on ignore.

tres borrachos said:

Okay, and I don't invite people to move anywhere either. I'm not on the right anymore. I don't try to tell others where to live, who to marry, and so on.

I also don't lie about America being at capacity.

And unlike you, I've been out of my house and know how much land we have in this country. Try it sometime.

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YOUR side bitches that our resources are limited, we make way too much of a carbon footprint and we're gonna die in less than 12 years if we don't change course.

YET, you want to let every person who wants to come here IN?

Yea we have more open space in Texas than most but, what we don't have is enough resource capacity [namely water] to take on millions of extra people.

Luckyone said:

I understand what you are saying and I often feel like that when talking to some of the Trump supporters on this message board...

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You may consider me like the ones you describe below, but I believe there's a good chance that either Russians or people working on their behalf are sowing division and falsehoods here and on many other forums.

...By the same token, I am 73 years old and having been a talkative and friendly salesman most of my life and having met many, many people, I have found that there is a lot of ignorance out there. I still smile when I hear people say things that are so ridiculous and not based on truth that I have to ask myself "how can they believe that? especially these days when fact finding is so much easier than it was 50 years ago". Stupid things like "phones cause cancer" or "the U.S. government deliberately created AIDS" or even such small things like "you need to eat breakfast before you take vitamins".

These things do not only sound ridiculous but are ridiculous and yet there is a huge amount of the population that still believes things like this and you cannot change their minds even in cases like with people that love you and listen to you (I say this because the vitamin thing is what my own wife believes).

As such, it is often pure ignorance and a lack of desire to check the truth or even more, believe what you read or what others tell you. As it is, people would rather believe their own lies than accept they made a mistake and are wrong. Being wrong is not something most people like and even less accept.

Given that you need to give people the benefit of the doubt, a bit more patience and understanding is required. Then again, there is only "so much" patience and understanding that makes sense. When that is finished, only ignore is a solution given that from there things can only go south. I now have 23 on ignore.

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I agree, many people have a hard time admitting to themselves, or anyone else, of making a bad mistake or bad misjudgment. I'm in my mid-sixties and the vast majority of my relatives and all the people I've known or enjoyed working with, were and are able to admit mistakes. But the majority of these folks were/are moderate to liberal.

I understand why so many were sick of the gridlock and thought they were voting for real change. So I don't fault them for the 2016 election, but now, after watching this clown lie almost everyday for two years? Giving them the benefit of the doubt or having more patience while we wait for them to get a clue, is just denying reality. If they haven't got it by now, they never will.

Trump sets the gold standard for hubris, buffoonish behavior and refusal to admit any mistake. He denies the Russian attack on our elections and the majority of conservatives know it and are perfectly ok with it. Or have I missed the conservatives who're demanding Trump do something about it? In reality almost half of all Americans are willing to toss away their ethics and compassion to enthusiastically follow an authoritarian, regardless of how immoral he becomes.

There's another thing that no one wants to talk about. Half of America and even some Democrats refuse to admit their prejudices. If the Democrat nominee is polling close or just above Don, right before the election, we'll lose. The thought of whites becoming a minority doesn't sit well with many Americans and the vast majority of conservatives will never admit it. There's a reason why, conscious or not, so many Americans knowingly support a well documented racist.

I have 30 on my ignore list and most of them are outright racists...

WCH said:

YOUR side bitches that our resources are limited, we make way too much of a carbon footprint and we're gonna die in less than 12 years if we don't change course.

YET, you want to let every person who wants to come here IN?

Yea we have more open space in Texas than most but, what we don't have is enough resource capacity [namely water] to take on millions of extra people.

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My side? What side would that be? You mean the real Republicans who are #NeverTrumpers because we're smart enough not to get suckered by a fraud named Trump? That side?

Point to a post from me that talks about carbon footprints and you dying in less than 12 years. I'll wait. Breathlessly.

By the way, carbon footprints exist all over the world. Are you in a panic because someone is going to move into Texas and take your carbon footprint from you?

tres borrachos said:

My side? What side would that be? You mean the real Republicans who are #NeverTrumpers because we're smart enough not to get suckered by a fraud named Trump? That side?

Point to a post from me that talks about carbon footprints and you dying in less than 12 years. I'll wait. Breathlessly.

By the way, carbon footprints exist all over the world. Are you in a panic because someone is going to move into Texas and take your carbon footprint from you?

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You're ridiculous now.