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We need to go back to the draft to insure that in all new wars, everyone shares the pain!

independentusa said:
Are you kidding me. I know people who have had to go back into combat zones up to ten times because we do not have enough people in uniform to keep it from happening. And the military uses the clauses in law to keep people in the military even when they do not want to stay. Why do you think that PTSD and suicide is so prevalent in our military today. Something like 32 military and ex-military take their lives each day.Even with the draft in Vietnam,we ran into problems with PTSD and they only had to serve one year. You can not send a person back into combat that often without causing the kind of damage we are seeing in our military members. I guess as long as the problems are someone elses child, you are okay with it?
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Don't put words in my mouth. It's nothing but a plea to emotion.

I don't share your pain.
I feel happy we do not have a draft.

I am thankful it's all been voluntary since 1973. If someone does not like serving, give notice.

I thank everyone who has served honorably. Taking jabs at those who had legal reasons not to serve is fruitless.
I grew up in the same era as you... so stop trying to bs me.
 
War is becoming more tech-focused and less dependent on manpower. Those soldiers that do serve need to be more specialised and tech-savvy; trained to a higher standard and level of specialization. The draft worked in the days of massed infantry formations, but by the end of Vietnam, that wasn't really how America fought its wars anymore. It certainly won't be in the future.
 
independentusa said:
We have a president that dodged the draft and Bolton another draft dodger pushing Trump to start another war, this one with Iran. To stop this kind of madness and make everyone feel the pain of every new war we go into, we need to reintroduce a draft with no exclusions and should include women and men according to our needs. Without this, those who are in charge will continue to send other people and other people's children to fight the our wars and not worry as none of their own will be in danger. Presently we have people in the military having up to being sent to combat zones between 1 and 10 times. this is not acceptable. If politico's want another war, then bring back the draft. And if you are so for another war, then have your children join the military, otherwise keep silent. Just so you know I was in the military between 69 and 72 and come from a military family so I am not talking out of my a**.
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First, make a formal declaration of war, then bring back the draft as you suggest. If there is no formal declaration of war, we don't go to war, plain and simple. The Congress made an awful mistake by abrogating their Constitutional responsibility and giving the president de facto authority to take the nation to war.
 
independentusa said:
We have a president that dodged the draft and Bolton another draft dodger pushing Trump to start another war, this one with Iran. To stop this kind of madness and make everyone feel the pain of every new war we go into, we need to reintroduce a draft with no exclusions and should include women and men according to our needs. Without this, those who are in charge will continue to send other people and other people's children to fight the our wars and not worry as none of their own will be in danger. Presently we have people in the military having up to being sent to combat zones between 1 and 10 times. this is not acceptable. If politico's want another war, then bring back the draft. And if you are so for another war, then have your children join the military, otherwise keep silent. Just so you know I was in the military between 69 and 72 and come from a military family so I am not talking out of my a**.
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There is NO war with Iran. As far as I know the military is close to manpower requirements from voluntary enlistments; what would the point of the draft? I was drafted in 1971, BTW.
 
Unless it's an existential event like the Civil War or WWII, I am not in favor of a draft. Short of that, I would hope there would always be enough selfless men and women willing to defend the right of everyone, including selfish, unappreciative douchebags to be, well, selfish, unappreciative douchebags. Freedom without free will isn't really freedom.
 
independentusa said:
We have a president that dodged the draft and Bolton another draft dodger pushing Trump to start another war, this one with Iran. To stop this kind of madness and make everyone feel the pain of every new war we go into, we need to reintroduce a draft with no exclusions and should include women and men according to our needs. Without this, those who are in charge will continue to send other people and other people's children to fight the our wars and not worry as none of their own will be in danger. Presently we have people in the military having up to being sent to combat zones between 1 and 10 times. this is not acceptable. If politico's want another war, then bring back the draft. And if you are so for another war, then have your children join the military, otherwise keep silent. Just so you know I was in the military between 69 and 72 and come from a military family so I am not talking out of my a**.
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The draft only guarantees the poor have skin in the game, the wealthy still have loopholes. Until the draft guarantees everyone of age is sent (no loopholes), the wealthy will always vote for war if it benefits them monetarily.
 
Helix said:
i don't support a return to the draft. Democrats need to stay away from that one, because if they make that a part of their platform, it's a deal killer for me. my kid is not going to be sacrificed for some politician's ego if i have anything to say about it.
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Neither was Fred Trump's kid.

So the military should be left to those who for whatever reason are all pumped to be "warriors", and the probably larger contingent who are simply poor and lacking in skills and see no other way out?
 
The solution is simple. We need a law that requires all politicians or political appointees children between ages of 18-35 to join the armed forces during any armed conflict.

No National Guard, no bone spurs, no exceptions.

If the conflict is a "war of choice", they all must fight on the front lines.
 
kitsune said:
Neither was Fred Trump's kid.

So the military should be left to those who for whatever reason are all pumped to be "warriors", and the probably larger contingent who are simply poor and lacking in skills and see no other way out?
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My preference for shared sacrifice is significant wartime tax rates every time the US is engaged in any war. All tax brackets should be raised. I don't support a draft, and will not vote for those who support one even if the alternative is Tweetycult.
 
Helix said:
a temporary draft in a WWII situation is regrettable, but is narrowly acceptable. WWII, however, was largely a result of WWI, which was arguably avoidable, if only in hindsight.
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World War 1 was absurd. It was absurd we got into it at all. The sacrifice of men was as evil as it gets. Each side would add increasingly more heavy artillery and machine guns. Ten thousand artillery shells would bombard a small area - and then that side would send thousands of men charging into machine guns. It wouldn't work. So then the other side would escalated this to 100,000 heavy mortar and artillery shells - and then charge 10,000 of their men into the machine guns. It wouldn't work. They also tried horse charges - wouldn't work.
Each side kept increasing the number of artillery, howitzers and machine guns, for which the answer was to send more and more men (and more and more horses) basically into certain death.

The war only ended because Russians revolted against the czar, ending Russia's involvement when all the Russian soldiers went home. And then the German soldiers all started to mass desert, leaving German no choice but to surrender to any terms - leading to WW2. Our reason for entering the WW1 was a deliberate lie by our government.

France fell immediately to Germany in WW2 because while France had a larger military, they still had their ancient WW1 generals who had no concept of mobile warfare.
 
independentusa said:
We have a president that dodged the draft and Bolton another draft dodger pushing Trump to start another war, this one with Iran. To stop this kind of madness and make everyone feel the pain of every new war we go into, we need to reintroduce a draft with no exclusions and should include women and men according to our needs. Without this, those who are in charge will continue to send other people and other people's children to fight the our wars and not worry as none of their own will be in danger. Presently we have people in the military having up to being sent to combat zones between 1 and 10 times. this is not acceptable. If politico's want another war, then bring back the draft. And if you are so for another war, then have your children join the military, otherwise keep silent. Just so you know I was in the military between 69 and 72 and come from a military family so I am not talking out of my a**.
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Do you realize how large our military would have to be if everyone was drafted? Roughly 4 million babies are born every year. A two year stint like it was in the old days of draftees would mean 8 million in the military not counting the professional officers and NCO's. You'd probably have to double that 8 million to 16 or so million in the military if you were to draft everyone. Imagine the cost of maintaining that many under arms. Then there is equipment, food, clothing, arms, housing, and a million other things.

Today we have approximately 1.3 million on active duty and we complain about the cost of those.
 
kitsune said:
Neither was Fred Trump's kid.

So the military should be left to those who for whatever reason are all pumped to be "warriors", and the probably larger contingent who are simply poor and lacking in skills and see no other way out?
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The problem with people like Bolton or Trump dodging the draft isn't that "they dodged the draft", because most of us that aren't right-wingers don't like the draft anyway. The problem is that they are the ones that are always talking up the military and acting like it's such a wonderful honor and ****, but they refused to serve even when they were supposed to. Have you not heard some of the dumb **** President Bone Spurs has said?

"He's not a war hero," Trump said. "He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured." - Donald Trump attacks John McCain on 'war hero' - Business Insider
 
Helix said:
My preference for shared sacrifice is significant wartime tax rates every time the US is engaged in any war. All tax brackets should be raised. I don't support a draft, and will not vote for those who support one even if the alternative is Tweetycult.
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Wartime tax rates? It's always wartime here. So we are talking permanent tax increases. I can deal with a heavier tax load, but I'm lucky.

This standing army thing is an interesting question, one that I think the sainted Founding Fathers warned us about. And President Eisenhower warned us about again from a different angle.
 
Crystal said:
Yep! And every single American should pay 25% federal income taxes too. Absolutely. The liberals will send all their kids to Canada like they did for Vietnam. Those people should be fined 100 million dollars.
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I didn't realize you were around during the Viet-Nam War; I was. Several kids I went to school with growing up came home in flag-draped coffins. I don't recall those coffins being marked "conservative" or "liberal". But clearly you were there and saw things I didn't. I'll confess, I didn't realize how old you were. If you or your family served in Viet-Nam, I thank them and you for your service.
 
nekrodev said:
The problem with people like Bolton or Trump dodging the draft isn't that "they dodged the draft", because most of us that aren't right-wingers don't like the draft anyway. The problem is that they are the ones that are always talking up the military and acting like it's such a wonderful honor and ****, but they refused to serve even when they were supposed to. Have you not heard some of the dumb **** President Bone Spurs has said?

"He's not a war hero," Trump said. "He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured." - Donald Trump attacks John McCain on 'war hero' - Business Insider
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I know what a chicken hawk is. It's a synonym for most Republicans.
 
Helix said:
i don't support a return to the draft. Democrats need to stay away from that one, because if they make that a part of their platform, it's a deal killer for me. my kid is not going to be sacrificed for some politician's ego if i have anything to say about it.
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Oh Canada! Watch how fast Canada wants to build a wall should the draft be implemented.
 
gulfman said:
Bill Clinton never served.Obama didn't serve because he was a Kenyan and not a US citizen.Maybe we should force the illegal immigrants to serve 4 years to get their citizenship.
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I will not answer that crap about Obama not being a citizen. Even trump no longer believes that crap. And Clinton never started a war and put other peoples children in danger. And guess what, we have already deported illegal immigrants that have served in our Armed Forces.
 
DiAnna said:
I didn't realize you were around during the Viet-Nam War; I was. Several kids I went to school with growing up came home in flag-draped coffins. I don't recall those coffins being marked "conservative" or "liberal". But clearly you were there and saw things I didn't. I'll confess, I didn't realize how old you were. If you or your family served in Viet-Nam, I thank them and you for your service.
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Two brothers served, now deceased. My very best friend died, he was 19. Linwood a Tipton. He’s on the wall. I wish he were here.
 
gulfman said:
Bill Clinton never served.Obama didn't serve because he was a Kenyan and not a US citizen.Maybe we should force the illegal immigrants to serve 4 years to get their citizenship.
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A lot of Phillipinos served in the U.S. Armed Forces during the 1970s as a means toward full U.S citizenship. Meanwhile, their pay allotments back to PI had their families living very comfortably for their economy. That arrangement seemed to work out quite well.

I personally believe we need to secure our borders, though, and compel people to enter legally, with military service an option for citizenship.

Unfortunately, these "caravans" are bringing in a lot of undesirables, including large numbers of previous deportees who were convicted if violent crimes when previously in the U.S., others who fled back home to avoid arrest for crimes and still others who have come here indirectly from terrorism exporting countries like Somalia and attempt to enter illegally.

Despite the political downplaying of events at the border, it's a real quagmire down there.

But back on topic, the same system as was used with the Phillipinos could be used with refugees from 'way south -- they could serve in the U.S. military and have pay allotments sent to their families in their countries of origin, where the U.S. dollar's value would support them comfortably while the "breadwinner" does his military service.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk
 
joko104 said:
World War 1 was absurd. It was absurd we got into it at all. The sacrifice of men was as evil as it gets. Each side would add increasingly more heavy artillery and machine guns. Ten thousand artillery shells would bombard a small area - and then that side would send thousands of men charging into machine guns. It wouldn't work. So then the other side would escalated this to 100,000 heavy mortar and artillery shells - and then charge 10,000 of their men into the machine guns. It wouldn't work. They also tried horse charges - wouldn't work.
Each side kept increasing the number of artillery, howitzers and machine guns, for which the answer was to send more and more men (and more and more horses) basically into certain death.

The war only ended because Russians revolted against the czar, ending Russia's involvement when all the Russian soldiers went home. And then the German soldiers all started to mass desert, leaving German no choice but to surrender to any terms - leading to WW2. Our reason for entering the WW1 was a deliberate lie by our government.

France fell immediately to Germany in WW2 because while France had a larger military, they still had their ancient WW1 generals who had no concept of mobile warfare.
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i'd like to argue that many of the horrors of the twentieth century wouldn't have happened if WWI would have been avoided. i can't argue that with certainty. however, i'm sticking to my preference that it could have been avoided via diplomacy.
 
kitsune said:
Wartime tax rates? It's always wartime here. So we are talking permanent tax increases. I can deal with a heavier tax load, but I'm lucky.

This standing army thing is an interesting question, one that I think the sainted Founding Fathers warned us about. And President Eisenhower warned us about again from a different angle.
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if the US is in a state of perpetual war, then wartime tax rates should reflect that.
 
Helix said:
i'm not sure what was unclear. then end of the draft was a good thing. reinstating it is a deal killer for me.
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I agree completely, unless a foreign power is invading the U.S., physically on our soil.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk
 
Thingfish said:
Oh Canada! Watch how fast Canada wants to build a wall should the draft be implemented.
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I doubt that Canadians have much interest in building a wall.
 
Harv said:
I agree completely, unless a foreign power is invading the U.S., physically on our soil.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk
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an invasion is a unique situation. the draft should be a last case scenario, IMO.
 
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