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Thread: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

  1. #11
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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    1. There is nothing "improper" about states passing the NPVIC.
    Actually, there is. It's unconstitutional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    2. The anti-choice movement has been destroying settled law (Roe) by a thousand small cuts, STATE BY STATE, so it seems a bit hypocritical to whine about states doing what the Constitution says they can do re elections, namely handling the election laws as they see fit.
    This isn't about Abortion, and I'm not getting into that here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    3. Left by itself, the EC had been a benign adjustment to rural versus urban all along but now, with Citizens United and gerrymandering, it forms a troika of nullification that is designed to favor the oligarchy. You want to preserve the EC?
    You get to pick the EC, CU or gerrymandering. You get to pick ONE but you can't have all three.
    CU, the boogeyman of the uneducated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    You want to nullify the popular vote election after election? Fine, then the EC WILL BE NULLIFIED in return.
    The popular vote is supposed to not matter, for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    You do NOT get to have THREE "cheats".
    Of course we could always reverse CU and gerrymandering and then the EC would go back to being what it was meant to be.
    See above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    4. I believe that the total is now at 179 or something close to it. That is less than a hundred votes from the magic 270.
    My bet is we will not get to 270 before the 2020 election but we probably will before 2024.
    Of course, miracles CAN happen.
    It's a terrible idea that would disenfranchise voters in the various states and the moment they try this **** there will be a hail storm of lawsuits against it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    5. Nice try...most of the people whining about the NPVIC DO want to get rid of the Senate elections. They want the 17A repealed, and they're pushing for a Constitutional Convention so that they can do just that.
    Tweakers...
    Repealing the 17th would be a very good move, it has lead to half the mess the Senate is in right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    You have debunked NOTHING. 270 is inevitable.
    It is inevitably going to end up shot down by SCOTUS.
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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Anyone have a summary of the arguments used in the video? I am not wasting my time on some radon youtube video without some evidence it isn't idiotic.
    There are 2 arguments I got out of that (admittedly annoying) video:

    (1) Constitution wanted to give smaller states higher weight so that higher-population states do not have too much control over smaller states. Using popular vote reverses that intent.

    (2) While it would be hard to do this with changing Constitution, the Popular Vote compact is a "loophole" abused by the States.

    I suppose they are making the case that Constitution is "smart" to do #1 but dumb about allowing such loopholes.

    I personally think this all depends on whether we value individual states as separate entities for representation or not. Clearly, Senate composition is doing so. Should Presidential election do so as well to a degree?

    While EC did not serve its buffering purpose of protecting us from a conman in 2016, abolishing EC concept still does not mean we could not continue to give higher weighs to votes from smaller states for their better representation.

    I could see it either way and do not lean strongly one way or another - perhaps a small bias toward populate vote but I don't care too much if we keep some weights but tilt them a little over to the populate vote side, simply because we are no longer as much of a collection of independent states as we used to be. Checkerboard Strangler has some good points too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    It's unconstitutional.
    How is it "unconstitutional" exactly? Seems like Constitution allows it / has no problem with how States choose the assign the EC votes. Even your video characterized it as a "loophole" but said nothing about it being against a law, let alone not being Constitutional.
    Last edited by Slavister; 06-18-19 at 01:16 AM.

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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    No, it's totally idiotic, The Debunkers is a never heard of low sub channel that's totally just nothingburger... /smh

    Anyway, they play a video, of some twit arguing for the National Popular Vote compact, and break it down. I love Freedom toons, they are funny, informative and I think you should atleast watch one, and if you don't like it, you don't like it. But don't be a child about it.
    So it is not idiotic, but you do not dare to actually mention a single argument they give. Well done, you totally sold me on it...
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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Slavister View Post
    There are 2 arguments I got out of that (admittedly annoying) video:

    (1) Constitution wanted to give smaller states higher weight so that higher-population states do not have too much control over smaller states. Using popular vote reverses that intent.
    That is not the intent of the EC. The EC was implemented because the founding fathers did not trust the unwashed masses to choose wisely, and wanted to instead have the elite pick some one to be president.

    (2) While it would be hard to do this with changing Constitution, the Popular Vote compact is a "loophole" abused by the States.
    Nothing in the constitution to ban Popular Vote Compact.

    I suppose they are making the case that Constitution is "smart" to do #1 but dumb about allowing such loopholes.

    I personally think this all depends on whether we value individual states as separate entities for representation or not. Clearly, Senate composition is doing so. Should Presidential election do so as well to a degree?

    While EC did not serve its buffering purpose of protecting us from a conman in 2016, abolishing EC concept still does not mean we could not continue to give higher weighs to votes from smaller states for their better representation.

    I could see it either way and do not lean strongly one way or another - perhaps a small bias toward populate vote but I don't care too much if we keep some weights but tilt them a little over to the populate vote side, simply because we are no longer as much of a collection of independent states as we used to be. Checkerboard Strangler has some good points too.



    How is it "unconstitutional" exactly? Seems like Constitution allows it / has no problem with how States choose the assign the EC votes. Even your video characterized it as a "loophole" but said nothing about it being against a law, let alone not being Constitutional.
    The constitution is smart. It left it up to the states to determine how they picked which elites voted for president.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham
    Iíve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals. - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    Actually, there is. It's unconstitutional.
    Show me where in the constitution it is not allowed.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham
    Iíve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals. - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Electoral College is an outdated relic from the past.....America needs to get rid of it.......

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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Ah, of course a conservative would not agree with anything that would (likely) give more of a benefit to Democrats (hmm, wonder why) - while at the same time ignoring the **** Republicans do illegally to stack the vote in their favor.

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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Anyone have a summary of the arguments used in the video? I am not wasting my time on some radon youtube video without some evidence it isn't idiotic.
    I agree that if the OP is a video or link to anything, the OPer should summarize it and state the OP'ers own opinion on that topic - not just "watch or read this."

  9. #19
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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Slavister View Post
    There are 2 arguments I got out of that (admittedly annoying) video:

    (1) Constitution wanted to give smaller states higher weight so that higher-population states do not have too much control over smaller states. Using popular vote reverses that intent.

    (2) While it would be hard to do this with changing Constitution, the Popular Vote compact is a "loophole" abused by the States.

    I suppose they are making the case that Constitution is "smart" to do #1 but dumb about allowing such loopholes.

    I personally think this all depends on whether we value individual states as separate entities for representation or not. Clearly, Senate composition is doing so. Should Presidential election do so as well to a degree?

    While EC did not serve its buffering purpose of protecting us from a conman in 2016, abolishing EC concept still does not mean we could not continue to give higher weighs to votes from smaller states for their better representation.

    I could see it either way and do not lean strongly one way or another - perhaps a small bias toward populate vote but I don't care too much if we keep some weights but tilt them a little over to the populate vote side, simply because we are no longer as much of a collection of independent states as we used to be. Checkerboard Strangler has some good points too.



    How is it "unconstitutional" exactly? Seems like Constitution allows it / has no problem with how States choose the assign the EC votes. Even your video characterized it as a "loophole" but said nothing about it being against a law, let alone not being Constitutional.
    It doesn't allow it. You can assign electors based on YOUR state, not other states voting.
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  10. #20
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    Re: Debunkers VS Abolishing The Electoral College

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is not the intent of the EC. The EC was implemented because the founding fathers did not trust the unwashed masses to choose wisely, and wanted to instead have the elite pick some one to be president.
    That's a big NOPE, Where do you come up with this ****?


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Nothing in the constitution to ban Popular Vote Compact.
    I have written at length elsewhere about the problems with the NPVC. In my view, it is unconstitutional for states to appoint electors against the wishes of their own state electorate but in accordance with the will of voters outside the state. I also think that the practical problems with the NPVC will invite litigation on a far greater scale—and with far greater consequences for the legitimacy of our presidential elections—than what the nation witnessed in Bush v. Gore.

    To raise just a few practical questions, how would a nationwide recount be ordered or conducted if the national popular vote is close? And, if a nationwide recount were not conducted—if only some states conducted a recount in that situation—would not that violate the Equal Protection Clause for the same reason that the lack of uniformity in Florida’s county-by-county recount in Bush v. Gore did? Equally importantly, would not the absence of a uniform, nationwide recount call into question the legitimacy of the President so elected? Supporters of the NPVC do not have even remotely convincing responses to these problems. Even they acknowledge the need for a nationwide recount and that no individual state can order other states to undertake a recount. They merely respond that Congress theoretically could enact a statute ordering a nationwide recount even though the NPVC, as an interstate compact, does not and cannot require Congress to enact such a statute.
    The Danger of the National Popular Vote CompactHarvard Law Review | (This past week, Colorado joined a growing list of states that have signed on to the National Popular Vote Compact (NPVC). The NPVC is a proposed interstate compact in which the signatory states agree that they will appoint their presidential electors in accordance with the national popular vote rather than their own state electorate’s vote....)

    [/quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The constitution is smart. It left it up to the states to determine how they picked which elites voted for president.
    You really don't understand the constitution....
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