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America's Real Economy: It Isn't Booming.

ttwtt78640 said:
Medicare (in its current form) also has a premium, deductible and at least a 20% co-pay for most medical care. As you said, Medicare also pays medical care providers less - do you really expect medical care providers to cheer a 10% to 20% pay cut as they are expected to serve ever more patients?
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I would expect they would be grateful to have the opportunity to make up for the lost income through increased volume

And if not, **** 'em
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That (bolded above) is precisely my point - your entire argument is based on a "what if" that has little (if any) chance of becoming law. Why do you suppose that no state has passed M4A? Could it be that their taxpayers would flee and the deadbeats would move in to enjoy that "free" medical care?
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you were saying -

ttwtt78640 said:
I am simply stating what is contained in current M4A legislation proposals - 'gap insurance' is illegal.
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and proceeded to post the bill which covered this.

this entire conversation has been under the assumption that the current M4A legislation would be enacted.

And I'm done with you, you're clearly not a serious person.
 
sangha said:
The overwhelming majority of workers in the landscaping industry do NOT work for a golf course.

Nearly every industry where low skilled workers predominate have niches that require highly skilled workers. Working as a cook at McDonald's is the very definition of a "McJob" while working in the kitchen of a Michelin starred restaurant requires skills and knowledge that usually takes years of specialized training. This doesn't make a McDonald's burger flipper a highly skilled worker.



No doubt that the self employed make more money than the people who do the same work for someone else. But making more money doesn't transform a low skill job into a highly skilled one.
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As I have stated, it requires more skills (and initial investment of capital) to run any business than to simply work for someone else's business. I make more money doing the same 'handyman' work being self-employed (plus I have the ability to work very close to home eliminating loads of unpaid windshield time) than when I did the same types of work for other employers. I pay my "low skilled" help at least $120/day (tax free cash) plus provide them lunch and transportation to and from the job sites. A good portion of my work is properly repairing the messes left by prior "discount independent contractors" and I only work for repeat customers and their referrals.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yes, if by mowing lawns you mean only operating the lawn service equipment (supplied by an employer or customer) and serving customers selected (booked?) by others. If that also includes selecting, buying and maintaining the required lawn maintenance equipment as well as establishing one's own customer base then that rises above the McJob level.

As part of my self-employed handyman business, I have at least $4K invested in lawn/grounds maintenance eqiupment/tools. That includes a 5' x 8' utility trailer (with sideboards), a 48" riding lawn mower, a 21" push mower, string trimmer, hedge trimmer, leaf blower, broadcast and drop spreaders, pole saw, chainsaws, lopers, pruners, ladders and various rakes/shovels. I also do the required maintenance on those tools/equipment (which, of course, requires other tools and skills).
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You're a business owner.
By the way...yes of course minimum wage jobs should not be regarded as careers or capable of supporting families, but what's missing are the bottom two rungs on the ladder where minimum wage can put a tiny 120 s.f. bachelor pad sardine can apartment within one's reach, enough Kraft Mac-Cheese, hot dogs, beans and rice, canned veggies and the occasional hamburger to last the month, and a few gallons of gas for your old jalopy.

For most minimum wage earners these necessities are out of reach the last twenty-some odd years. If they are once again within reach, a miracle happens. Well okay, not really a miracle but a good thing:
The bottom of the underclass begins to CHURN.

People know that they can survive, they apply their ambition and their gray matter to bettering themselves, then comes the day where they gradually lift themselves up a notch, and some other poor schlub takes their former place and does the same thing in due time.
Upward mobility.

Speaking only for myself, I am simply saying that I remember when upward mobility was almost universally understood and expected.
Sure, you have a crappy minimum wage job but don't worry, you're not homeless, you have a roof over your head and things will get better if you apply yourself. If we can somehow bring a little bit of that back, a lot of the problems we're seeing now will gradually lessen a little bit, society will again gradually become a little healthier, and more and more people will begin to live the dream as best they can.

That is what the New Deal was all about. That's why it was such a profoundly positive imprint on our national character and psyche.
 
OscarLevant said:
and the 25% tariffs, let's see what the ledger looks like towards the end of Trump's 4 years.
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Of all the mistakes tRump has made during his time in the White House--and he has made a LOT of mistakes--tariffs are one of his dumbest. He inherited a very stable economy from Obama and has actively harmed it. How deep will this harm reach? We'll find out soon enough.
 
sangha said:
I would expect they would be grateful to have the opportunity to make up for the lost income through increased volume

And if not, **** 'em
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While you may gladly work for 10% to 20% less, I doubt that many don't share your attitude.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
As I have stated, it requires more skills (and initial investment of capital) to run any business than to simply work for someone else's business. I make more money doing the same 'handyman' work being self-employed (plus I have the ability to work very close to home eliminating loads of unpaid windshield time) than when I did the same types of work for other employers. I pay my "low skilled" help at least $120/day (tax free cash) plus provide them lunch and transportation to and from the job sites. A good portion of my work is properly repairing the messes left by prior "discount independent contractors" and I only work for repeat customers and their referrals.
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You're paying the help 2400 bucks a month? Good on you, mate.
That is definitely not minimum wage.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
As I have stated, it requires more skills (and initial investment of capital) to run any business than to simply work for someone else's business. I make more money doing the same 'handyman' work being self-employed (plus I have the ability to work very close to home eliminating loads of unpaid windshield time) than when I did the same types of work for other employers. I pay my "low skilled" help at least $120/day (tax free cash) plus provide them lunch and transportation to and from the job sites. A good portion of my work is properly repairing the messes left by prior "discount independent contractors" and I only work for repeat customers and their referrals.
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There is no doubt that running a business requires more skills than merely doing the work. My point is that running a business with only one employee is not a highly skilled job. If it were, there wouldn't be millions of low skilled immigrants doing it

There are literally millions of immigrants who are running their own businesses. Landscapers, taxi drivers, cleaning services, cooks and bakers, etc. Many have less than a high school education.

However, I do agree that many of the things contractors do require advanced skills and knowledge.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
You're a business owner.
By the way...yes of course minimum wage jobs should not be regarded as careers or capable of supporting families, but what's missing are the bottom two rungs on the ladder where minimum wage can put a tiny 120 s.f. bachelor pad sardine can apartment within one's reach, enough Kraft Mac-Cheese, hot dogs, beans and rice, canned veggies and the occasional hamburger to last the month, and a few gallons of gas for your old jalopy.

For most minimum wage earners these necessities are out of reach the last twenty-some odd years. If they are once again within reach, a miracle happens. Well okay, not really a miracle but a good thing:
The bottom of the underclass begins to CHURN.

People know that they can survive, they apply their ambition and their gray matter to bettering themselves, then comes the day where they gradually lift themselves up a notch, and some other poor schlub takes their former place and does the same thing in due time.
Upward mobility.

Speaking only for myself, I am simply saying that I remember when upward mobility was almost universally understood and expected.
Sure, you have a crappy minimum wage job but don't worry, you're not homeless, you have a roof over your head and things will get better if you apply yourself. If we can somehow bring a little bit of that back, a lot of the problems we're seeing now will gradually lessen a little bit, society will again gradually become a little healthier, and more and more people will begin to live the dream as best they can.

That is what the New Deal was all about. That's why it was such a profoundly positive imprint on our national character and psyche.
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Around here one can buy a used RV for under $10K and have RV "park" monthly rent including all electricity, water, sewer, cable and internet of $400 to $500/month. That is not likely possible in a city but that leaves ample opportunity to pursue further training/education. I simply do not understand folks paying $1,200/month (or more) rent plus having to pay utilities to live in a slightly larger apartment.

We (myself and my girlfriend) have a very good deal renting a single-wide mobile home for $300/month (not including utilities) but that is a perk from me giving our landlord priority on her home/farm and (other) rental unit maintenance, make ready and "emergency" repair needs.
 
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ttwtt78640 said:
Around here one can get buy used RV for under $10K and have RV "park" monthly rent including all electricity, water, sewer, cable and internet of $400 to $500/month. That is not likely possible in a city but that leaves ample opportunity to pursue further training/education. I simply do not understand folks paying $1,200/month (or more) rent plus having to pay utilities to live in a slightly larger apartment.
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That exists out here too but as you can imagine, this being a large city, it is harder and harder to come by. Shortage of useable RV solutions, shortage of rental spaces, shortage of all of that. If you can get into a setting like that you can make it but it's very tough.
There's also a shortage of trailer parks and trailer homes, too.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
While you may gladly work for 10% to 20% less, I doubt that many don't share your attitude.
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Somehow, every other developed nation in the world has managed to find people who will do that work for much less. In fact, despite paying our doctors more than other nations, we have a greater shortage of doctors
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Around here one can buy a used RV for under $10K and have RV "park" monthly rent including all electricity, water, sewer, cable and internet of $400 to $500/month. That is not likely possible in a city but that leaves ample opportunity to pursue further training/education. I simply do not understand folks paying $1,200/month (or more) rent plus having to pay utilities to live in a slightly larger apartment.

We (myself and my girlfriend) have a very good deal renting a single-wide mobile home for $300/month (not including utilities) but that is a perk from me giving our landlord priority on her home/farm and (other) rental unit maintenance, make ready and "emergency" repair needs.
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Things have changed.

According to the stats mentioned in this thread, 42% of all jobs pay $15/hr or less, and they aren't full time or permanent positions. And if you live in a place where the cost of living is low, those jobs can be scarce.
 
sangha said:
Somehow, every other developed nation in the world has managed to find people who will do that work for much less. In fact, despite paying our doctors more than other nations, we have a greater shortage of doctors
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Congress and the AMA are interested in limiting the number of trained doctors, not making more available.
It's policy.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
You're paying the help 2400 bucks a month? Good on you, mate.
That is definitely not minimum wage.
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I don't normally need help more than about 3 to 4 days per month. Lately I have been using a bit more help but that is for two larger jobs - building a free standing double carport (24' x 23') and a 16' x 77' mobile home (cover over) roof. Most of my work I can do alone or with minimal customer assistance.
 
sangha said:
Things have changed.

According to the stats mentioned in this thread, 42% of all jobs pay $15/hr or less, and they aren't full time or permanent positions. And if you live in a place where the cost of living is low, those jobs can be scarce.
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Like I've been saying all along, put back the bottom two rungs of the ladder which have been unceremoniously sawed off and you will witness a small miracle. The underclass will begin striving more, and there will be healthy CHURN.
 
sangha said:
Somehow, every other developed nation in the world has managed to find people who will do that work for much less. In fact, despite paying our doctors more than other nations, we have a greater shortage of doctors
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Probably because we have too many lawyers.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I don't normally need help more than about 3 to 4 days per month. Lately I have been using a bit more help but that is for two larger jobs - building a free standing double carport (24' x 23') and a 16' x 77' mobile home (cover over) roof. Most of my work I can do alone or with minimal customer assistance.
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Oh, so it's a gig. They're not staffers, they're temp help.
 
sangha said:
Things have changed.

According to the stats mentioned in this thread, 42% of all jobs pay $15/hr or less, and they aren't full time or permanent positions. And if you live in a place where the cost of living is low, those jobs can be scarce.
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I will no longer do any job for $15/hour or less. Those who work that cheap likely get "safety net" assistance to allow them to make ends meet or live in near third world conditions - one next door neighbor has 6 people (3 adults and 3 children) living in a 2 BR, 1 BA single-wide mobile home). So long as we have loads of immigrant (legal or not) labor available and a "safety net" to make a McJob into a McCareer then wages will stay low.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Like I've been saying all along, put back the bottom two rungs of the ladder which have been unceremoniously sawed off and you will witness a small miracle. The underclass will begin striving more, and there will be healthy CHURN.
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IMO, two of the biggest problems is that employers don't hire/promote from within and are unwilling to train new or current employees.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Oh, so it's a gig. They're not staffers, they're temp help.
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Yep, the guy I use most is a self employed painter but has several other contractors (fencing and semi trailer repair) that he also helps. Another one of my "go to" helpers works for Texas State University but will take (paid) leave from that job if I need his help. I refuse to use the 'day labor' morons who hang out in Home Depot parking lots - I need folks that I can trust on my customer's property.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I will no longer do any job for $15/hour or less. Those who work that cheap likely get "safety net" assistance to allow them to make ends meet or live in near third world conditions - one next door neighbor has 6 people (3 adults and 3 children) living in a 2 BR, 1 BA single-wide mobile home). So long as we have loads of immigrant (legal or not) labor available and a "safety net" to make a McJob into a McCareer then wages will stay low.
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You are very fortunate that you're in a position to refuse jobs that pay less than $15/hr but the statistics say that 42% of all jobs pay $15/hr or less

The reason why so many jobs pay less than a living wage has little to nothing to do with immigrants. We have record low unemployment and the number of immigrants in the country has dropped yet the pay at the bottom has stalled
 
sangha said:
No, it's a manufactured problem. The AMA and the medical schools don't want to train a lot of new doctors
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That is interesting - I bet they lobby hard against M4A too. I guess they have a deal like taxi medallions to keep supply low and prices high.
 
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