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The South's Economy Is Falling Behind

Guno

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Trump country where the uneducated vote against their own self interests , where education is the lowest as health outcomes and bible thumping is king




The American South spent much of the past century trying to overcome its position as the country’s poorest and least-developed region, with considerable success: By the 2009 recession it had nearly caught up economically with its northern and western neighbors.

That trend has now reversed. Since 2009, the South’s convergence has turned to divergence, as the region recorded the country’s slowest growth in output and wages, the lowest labor-force participation rate and the highest unemployment rate.

Behind the reversal: The policies that drove the region’s catch-up—relatively low taxes and low wages that attracted factories and blue-collar jobs—have proven inadequate in an expanding economy where the forces of globalization favor cities with concentrations of capital and educated workers.



As the divide between rural and urban incomes widens nationwide, the South has been particularly affected, since a third of its population lives in rural areas, compared with under 20% for the overall U.S.

The South’s economy was historically poorer because it was heavily dependent on agriculture, one legacy of the dominance of cotton and slavery. In 1880, about 90% of southern workers were employed in farming, compared with about 66% nationally, according to Sukkoo Kim of Washington University.

To diversify and lure manufacturing, southern states, starting with Arkansas in 1947, began passing right-to-work laws that weakened unions and kept taxes lower than in the wealthier North. And they spent less, especially on education: an average of $1,869 per student in 2009 dollars, in 1960, compared with $2,741 nationwide, according to the Education Department. In part, this reflected the long shadow of slavery. In the Jim Crow era white taxpayers and politicians resisted spending that benefited blacks, according to historians.

The South's Economy Is Falling Behind: 'All of a Sudden the Money Stops Flowing'
 
Why do Southern states put so little emphasis on quality education? It seems education is seen as a costly burden for the state, not a resource, from kindergarten to post-secondary. Any Southern members care to explain?
 
Why do Southern states put so little emphasis on quality education? It seems education is seen as a costly burden for the state, not a resource, from kindergarten to post-secondary. Any Southern members care to explain?

I’m not following you, honest!

I see it as more of a national problem although it seems more visible in the southern states. We don’t value education any longer; or educators. Lip-service is paid but that won’t pay the freight.
 
Why do Southern states put so little emphasis on quality education? It seems education is seen as a costly burden for the state, not a resource, from kindergarten to post-secondary. Any Southern members care to explain?

Perhaps they're of the opinion that Bible school is all the education one needs.
 
Why do Southern states put so little emphasis on quality education? It seems education is seen as a costly burden for the state, not a resource, from kindergarten to post-secondary. Any Southern members care to explain?

Because an actual education would threaten their entire worldview. Do you want to teach these people that the world is not just 6000 years old and made in 6 days? About why trickle down economics has been shown to not work? About the problems with pure free markets? About all the biological evidence against racism? About actual climate change science? That the founding fathers of this country or not Bible thumping Evangelicals and really wanted religion out of government?

It would kill them. Literally kill them. They would reject any such attempts as “liberal indoctrination”. They would rather live in poverty than have this stuff shoved down their throat.
 
These articles are always fundamentally lies, because they always leave out cost of live being figured into it. The cost of housing, for example, is massively higher in the East than the South, and in California - while white liberals brag it is a wealthy state, streets are lined with homeless people who can not afford housing. The same in NYC.
 
Because an actual education would threaten their entire worldview. Do you want to teach these people that the world is not just 6000 years old and made in 6 days? About why trickle down economics has been shown to not work? About the problems with pure free markets? About all the biological evidence against racism? About actual climate change science? That the founding fathers of this country or not Bible thumping Evangelicals and really wanted religion out of government?

It would kill them. Literally kill them. They would reject any such attempts as “liberal indoctrination”. They would rather live in poverty than have this stuff shoved down their throat.

The Democratic Party would only qualify as a 3rd party if the two most uneducated demographics - blacks and Latinos - are excluded. NO ONE more loves the poorly educated that the Democratic Party, which is 100% dependent upon high school dropouts to win elections.

People, or more specifically Americans, are not leaving New York and California because they are great states to live in.

Like so many Democrats on this forum, you too seek any possible excuse to attack Christians. So, once again, I point out that every Christian in the USA should vote straight Republican in every election for every office as if their lives and that of their loved ones depends upon it. More and more Democrats all but worship Mao, Stalin and Hitler, the greatest mass murderers of modern history and all who targeted spiritual Christians for death.
 
maybe if we let the rich raid the treasury a few more times, the South's economy will magic itself into high gear.
 
Delete
 
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Why do Southern states put so little emphasis on quality education? It seems education is seen as a costly burden for the state, not a resource, from kindergarten to post-secondary. Any Southern members care to explain?

A lot of it is simply an aversion to taxes and government needed to properly fund K-12. It's also a problem that schools are funded with property taxes, and we in Tennessee at least have a lot of poor, rural counties with an inadequate tax base. Our state is proudly about 48 or something out of 50 on tax burdens per capita, with no income tax and no prospect of one anytime soon, so you can do the math. No money to fund schools mean we have a lot of bad schools, with K-12 teachers getting paid near the bottom nationally.

In Tennessee's defense, we have funded a program through the lottery that essentially pays for two years of community college or trade school for free. That's relatively new and I don't know the results of that, but the purpose was to solve what business development people had identified as a huge problem attracting modern businesses to Tennessee, which was we rank near the bottom for post K-12 education. Lots of companies just didn't think they could find enough qualified applicants and so went elsewhere.

We in TN also have a scholarship program open to anyone who meets GPA standards that pays full tuition at public colleges. In practice, however, the students from poor schools have trouble making it and often lose their scholarships, so it works out mostly as a subsidy for the middle and upper middle class and above, which is fine to some extent, but it doesn't help change the historical patterns.

Tl/dr it's all about funding, low taxes. Those are good in some ways but good education is expensive and as a region the South just isn't willing to fund good education.
 
The Democratic Party would only qualify as a 3rd party if the two most uneducated demographics - blacks and Latinos - are excluded. NO ONE more loves the poorly educated that the Democratic Party, which is 100% dependent upon high school dropouts to win elections.

Don't forget rural whites!! They can compete with anyone on the "uneducated" contest! And Trump won the "HS or less" category by 6 points and the 'some college' category by 9 points, so the GOP has a pretty solid lock on the under-educated!

By contrast Hillary won the college graduates and dominated (58-37) the graduate school demographic.

I don't know what you guys would do without projection. It's the GOP who loves the poorly educated.

People, or more specifically Americans, are not leaving New York and California because they are great states to live in.

Like so many Democrats on this forum, you too seek any possible excuse to attack Christians. So, once again, I point out that every Christian in the USA should vote straight Republican in every election for every office as if their lives and that of their loved ones depends upon it. More and more Democrats all but worship Mao, Stalin and Hitler, the greatest mass murderers of modern history and all who targeted spiritual Christians for death.

Good job with the Godwin! HITLER!! Everyone do a shot!
 
Thanks for the link. If there's something there that contradicts what I wrote, you can cite it and quote it if you want. Otherwise, I know there is a Department of Education with its own website.....

Read the link and you'll see how you're wrong.
 
These articles are always fundamentally lies, because they always leave out cost of live being figured into it. The cost of housing, for example, is massively higher in the East than the South, and in California - while white liberals brag it is a wealthy state, streets are lined with homeless people who can not afford housing. The same in NYC.

Sure. Not many people places can afford to live in these places. The cost of living is so high there because they are higly desirable places to live. San Francisco, for example, has more billionaires per capita than any other city on the planet. That's why there are more homeless there, and why so many people decide to leave those places to go to cheaper places. It's because they can't afford it, not because the rural south is so much better to live in.

What you think people are going to pay a huge amount of money to live in rural Mississippi? LOL.
 
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The American South spent much of the past century trying to overcome its position as the country’s poorest and least-developed region, with considerable success: By the 2009 recession it had nearly caught up economically with its northern and western neighbors.

That trend has now reversed. Since 2009, the South’s convergence has turned to divergence, as the region recorded the country’s slowest growth in output and wages, the lowest labor-force participation rate and the highest unemployment rate.

Behind the reversal: The policies that drove the region’s catch-up—relatively low taxes and low wages that attracted factories and blue-collar jobs—have proven inadequate in an expanding economy where the forces of globalization favor cities with concentrations of capital and educated workers.
i disagree with that conclusion. my southern state, NC, led the nation in percentage of jobs dedicated to manufacturing. after NAFTA, which you know predated the great recession, that percentage atrophied, as it did across the nation. second and third world nations realized that they had a comparative advantage to compete with the USA for market share: lower wages, little support for unionization, and negligible rules prohibiting the infliction of environmental damage
the south, with its focus on creating manufacturing jobs, was disproportionally impacted by the onset of globalization. as an aside this is one of three factors the SBA warned about at the new millenium; [the other two being a projected shrinkage of labor/increase of wages as the boomers went into retirement and computing becoming a larger presence for all businesses]

when the great recession hit, those on the margins looked to live more economically. housing and the cost of living was less in the south resulting in the south becoming the new locale for those unable to afford the cost of living in the north and west. with the atrophy of manufacturing jobs, accelerated by the recession, and those whose skill sets and/or asset base were limited flocked to the south, which then spiked the unemployment rate and the decline of the labor participation rate

As the divide between rural and urban incomes widens nationwide, the South has been particularly affected, since a third of its population lives in rural areas, compared with under 20% for the overall U.S.
this describes a symptom rather than the underlying problem. with few exceptions, those stuck in the rural south are there not by choice but by few alternative options. under-educated, under-skilled, financially exhausted residents of the rural southern areas have very few prospects for moving to the urban communities. that explains the disproportionate percentage of residents located in the rural south

The South’s economy was historically poorer because it was heavily dependent on agriculture, one legacy of the dominance of cotton and slavery. In 1880, about 90% of southern workers were employed in farming, compared with about 66% nationally, according to Sukkoo Kim of Washington University.

To diversify and lure manufacturing, southern states, starting with Arkansas in 1947, began passing right-to-work laws that weakened unions and kept taxes lower than in the wealthier North. And they spent less, especially on education: an average of $1,869 per student in 2009 dollars, in 1960, compared with $2,741 nationwide, according to the Education Department. In part, this reflected the long shadow of slavery. In the Jim Crow era white taxpayers and politicians resisted spending that benefited blacks, according to historians.
that implementation of comparative advantage that we are now seeing globally from second and third world nations, well that is what happened in the south after WWII. lower wages attracted industry which was located elsewhere because it led to higher corporate profitability when relocated to the south
UNION is a dirty word in the south, even today. imagine what it was like during the jim crow era and subsequent. that and being vilified as affiliated with communists, unionism never got a toehold in the old or new south
since the cost of living has been cheaper in the south, i have to question why it surprises anyone that the per capita public education expenditure was less in the south than the more affluent north and west
additionally, black schools were always inferior. the white schools books were passed to black schools when the white schools got new ones. so, between a lesser cost for 11% of the population and non-unionized school teachers, is there really any reason for the southern education system to operate at a lower cost than its more affluent counterparts in the north and west
 
No. :shrug:

If you have a point, you can make it. I'm not your research assistant.

I made my point and I supported my point. Feel free to use supporting documentation to prove me wrong. That's how debate works. Ya know?

I know this thread has more to do with anti-Southern and anti-Christian bigotry than anything, but let's see if we can salvage it. Hmm?
 
These articles are always fundamentally lies, because they always leave out cost of live being figured into it. The cost of housing, for example, is massively higher in the East than the South, and in California - while white liberals brag it is a wealthy state, streets are lined with homeless people who can not afford housing. The same in NYC.

You can look at the data any way you want, and you'll see the same pattern. HS graduates, college graduates, advanced degrees, funding per capita, test scores - the South lags in every one.

Here's graduation rates for example. List of U.S. states by educational attainment - Wikipedia

Here's WalletHub's study: The 10 most and least educated states in 2018

There's a reason high tech companies don't locate in the South, for example, and it's because the education system doesn't produce enough qualified graduates. Companies needing the highest skilled still locate in the NE in the eastern part of the country, because that's where the college graduates and advanced degree holders are mostly produced.
 
i disagree with that conclusion. my southern state, NC, led the nation in percentage of jobs dedicated to manufacturing. after NAFTA, which you know predated the great recession, that percentage atrophied, as it did across the nation. second and third world nations realized that they had a comparative advantage to compete with the USA for market share: lower wages, little support for unionization, and negligible rules prohibiting the infliction of environmental damage
the south, with its focus on creating manufacturing jobs, was disproportionally impacted by the onset of globalization. as an aside this is one of three factors the SBA warned about at the new millenium; [the other two being a projected shrinkage of labor/increase of wages as the boomers went into retirement and computing becoming a larger presence for all businesses]

when the great recession hit, those on the margins looked to live more economically. housing and the cost of living was less in the south resulting in the south becoming the new locale for those unable to afford the cost of living in the north and west. with the atrophy of manufacturing jobs, accelerated by the recession, and those whose skill sets and/or asset base were limited flocked to the south, which then spiked the unemployment rate and the decline of the labor participation rate


this describes a symptom rather than the underlying problem. with few exceptions, those stuck in the rural south are there not by choice but by few alternative options. under-educated, under-skilled, financially exhausted residents of the rural southern areas have very few prospects for moving to the urban communities. that explains the disproportionate percentage of residents located in the rural south


that implementation of comparative advantage that we are now seeing globally from second and third world nations, well that is what happened in the south after WWII. lower wages attracted industry which was located elsewhere because it led to higher corporate profitability when relocated to the south
UNION is a dirty word in the south, even today. imagine what it was like during the jim crow era and subsequent. that and being vilified as affiliated with communists, unionism never got a toehold in the old or new south
since the cost of living has been cheaper in the south, i have to question why it surprises anyone that the per capita public education expenditure was less in the south than the more affluent north and west
additionally, black schools were always inferior. the white schools books were passed to black schools when the white schools got new ones. so, between a lesser cost for 11% of the population and non-unionized school teachers, is there really any reason for the southern education system to operate at a lower cost than its more affluent counterparts in the north and west

I think you are trying to make a case that even though southern states spend less on education, that's only because of the cost of living considerations, not because the quality of education is worse. State rankings of actual educational attainment, however, suggest otherwise.

Top 10 states:
1. Massachusetts (Best)
2. Maryland
3. Vermont
4. Connecticut
5. Colorado
6. Virginia (politically, no longer really considered part of the south)
7. New Hampshire
8. Minnesota
9. Utah
10 Washington


Bottom 10 states:
1. Tennessee
2. South Carolina
3. Oklahoma
4. Nevada
5. Kentucky
6. Alabama
7. Arkansas
8. Louisiana
9. West Virginia
10. Mississippi (Worst)
 
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I made my point and I supported my point. Feel free to use supporting documentation to prove me wrong. That's how debate works. Ya know?

I know this thread has more to do with anti-Southern and anti-Christian bigotry than anything, but let's see if we can salvage it. Hmm?

I have lived in the South my entire life, so I'm not bigoted against it. But the fact is we in the South lag in education by any measure you want to look at for lots of reasons that I laid out in another post. The cities are doing well - Knoxville is booming, as is Chattanooga, and Nashville. They also have the tax base to fund pretty solid K-12 education. Etc.

And if you want to pretend that posting a blind link makes your point, here's my evidence: Google.
 
Read the link and you'll see how you're wrong.

From your link:

Overview
Education is primarily a State and local responsibility in the United States. It is States and communities, as well as public and private organizations of all kinds, that establish schools and colleges, develop curricula, and determine requirements for enrollment and graduation. The structure of education finance in America reflects this predominant State and local role. Of an estimated $1.15 trillion being spent nationwide on education at all levels for school year 2012-2013, a substantial majority will come from State, local, and private sources. This is especially true at the elementary and secondary level, where about 92 percent of the funds will come from non-Federal sources.

That means the Federal contribution to elementary and secondary education is about 8 percent, which includes funds not only from the Department of Education (ED) but also from other Federal agencies, such as the Department of Health and Human Services' Head Start program and the Department of Agriculture's School Lunch program.

Although ED's share of total education funding in the U.S. is relatively small, ED works hard to get a big bang for its taxpayer-provided bucks by targeting its funds where they can do the most good. This targeting reflects the historical development of the Federal role in education as a kind of "emergency response system," a means of filling gaps in State and local support for education when critical national needs arise.
 
Finances are certainly a barrier for better public education in the south. It sort of self-propogates: worse economy--->less tax revenue--->less education--->worse economy.

But there is more to it. There is a fundamental mistrust in education in many of these places where they think education=liberal indoctrination. It's not too different from the problem in the inner cities where there is this perception that being educated=betraying your race and trying to be white. These are all just really difficult cultural attitudes which are going to be tough to overcome.

I mean if you are a Trump-voting Southern conservative, and you hear some teacher is trying to teach your kid about evolutionary biology, and that the Earth is more than just 6000 years old, and how trickle down economics doesn't really work, and the evidence for climate change science, and how race is not really a scientific concept, or how and all the reasons why the founding fathers wanted religion out of politics, etc... you certainly wouldn't trust the educational system very much either. You'd chase that teacher right out of town with your trusty shotgun.
 
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