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Is The Mexico Tariffs Just A Scapegoat?

Thanks for sharing.

Not interested in reading long winded term papers on the subject. You might try summarizing your opinions so they are a better fit to this type of environment.

I feel sorry for you for your lack of decent attention span. Reading a few paragraphs shouldn't be that difficult, if you are truly interested in efficient ideas to solve the problem. By the way, I'm AGAINST illegal immigration. Just, I have better points regarding it, than the people who blindly advocate for a stupid wall.
 
Overall, you put some thoughts into your post. Thank you. You lost me with the same old Brown people bs. As one who agrees with you for the most part on this, I find it insulting that Illegals are considered a racist pawn.

Thank you for the part with the nice compliment, but sorry, the "brown" issue IS part of the problem. Sorry, but you don't see conservatives getting up in arms about the very beautiful and very white and sexy Eastern European babe who speaks decent English (with a charming accent) and sneaks into the country on some sort of student visa then overstays her visa and manages to get modeling work here. By comparison, just look at how upset they get if the illegal alien is a poor Brown Mexican who speaks Spanish. Sorry, but this is a reality, and highlighting it is not some sort of race card. We shouldn't be blind to reality-based issues, even if they can be used by the people simply interested in race cards. The bulk of my post, like you highlighted yourself, proves that I'm not one of those people who only pay attention to, and use, race cards. But I won't turn a blind eye to this part of the problem, because it does exist and is reality-based.

Me, I'm against ALL illegal immigration (including when it's the white babe from Eastern Europe), and for ALL legal immigration, regardless of race, national origin, or gender. But I can't ignore that some people (not all) are ticked-off by the race issue, as well.
 
That meme is completely untrue.

Well over 90% of the people who overstay their visas leave the country within 1 year. Over 95% after 2 yrs.
Look it up. DHS facts, not mine.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/19_0417_fy18-entry-and-exit-overstay-report.pdf

While I'm not thrilled with the way legal immigration is being handled, the major issue is illegal immigration.


Well over 90% of the people who overstay their visas leave the country within 1 year. Over 95% after 2 yrs.
Look it up. DHS facts, not mine.

You'll believe everything your Gov tells you. Just trust(Atta boy)


Funny how I know many of them, my wife being one of them(wink)



While I'm not thrilled with the way legal immigration is being handled, the major issue is illegal immigration

Wrong...

1.1 million yearly immigrants.

650,000 yearly naturalized citizens

There lies the problem

Like your Calif(wink)
 
But then, others occupy their places. Illegal immigrants who cross the border illegally also come and go. Some come as seasonal workers for harvesting then go away again, back to their families in Mexico; later they cross back in. And if visa overstayers are *currently* not staying too long, those who intend to stay for a long time would just change their preferred method to come in. You'd see the same people who intend to stay longer, switch to this other method, if a wall made their life a bit more difficult. You'd also see the people smugglers simply getting more creative in the way they bring in the illegal aliens. Like I said above, there are dozens of methods to bypass a wall. They are not being used yet, because there is no need for them, yet. But build a wall, and those methods would start being employed (ladders, tunnels, hot air balloons, small planes, boats, bulldozers to breach the wall, bombs to make the wall crumble, etc.). No, a wall is no solution. It is just a political tool to fire up Trump's base. The true solution, like I mentioned above, would be bills made into law that would very severely penalize American employers who offer jobs to illegal aliens. This solution, however, although much more efficient, doesn't interest the Republican Party, for the reasons I exposed above.

The evidence illegal aliens return is not there. The current estimate places the illegal alien population in the US in excess of 20 million people.

I agree part of the solution is punitive penalties against employers who knowingly hire illegals. However, with stolen identities, and forged documents, that becomes difficult.

Pretty close to 100% of the illegal alien population uses forged documents and other felonious approaches to obtain employment.

On the point of the wall, the majority of apprehension occur in places where no manmade infrastructure exists. Walls work, when reviewing the available data.
 
I feel sorry for you for your lack of decent attention span. Reading a few paragraphs shouldn't be that difficult, if you are truly interested in efficient ideas to solve the problem. By the way, I'm AGAINST illegal immigration. Just, I have better points regarding it, than the people who blindly advocate for a stupid wall.

A few paragraphs? Over 5,000 words is not a few paragraphs.

I didn't say I wouldn't read what you had to say, I suggested you condense it for this format.

I assume you would want more than just me to read your opinion.
 
Thank you for the part with the nice compliment, but sorry, the "brown" issue IS part of the problem. Sorry, but you don't see conservatives getting up in arms about the very beautiful and very white and sexy Eastern European babe who speaks decent English (with a charming accent) and sneaks into the country on some sort of student visa then overstays her visa and manages to get modeling work here. By comparison, just look at how upset they get if the illegal alien is a poor Brown Mexican who speaks Spanish. Sorry, but this is a reality, and highlighting it is not some sort of race card. We shouldn't be blind to reality-based issues, even if they can be used by the people simply interested in race cards. The bulk of my post, like you highlighted yourself, proves that I'm not one of those people who only pay attention to, and use, race cards. But I won't turn a blind eye to this part of the problem, because it does exist and is reality-based.

Me, I'm against ALL illegal immigration (including when it's the white babe from Eastern Europe), and for ALL legal immigration, regardless of race, national origin, or gender. But I can't ignore that some people (not all) are ticked-off by the race issue, as well.

Those are included in "illegal", however, it seems none of them come by the thousands through and from Mexico at the moment.
 
As I said...Trump's rhetoric doesn't negate facts. This is on Congress.



Deflection?



You just cannot bring yourself to hold Congress responsible for their actions...or lack of actions. Now you want to blame the citizens.


Okay. I'm done.

You are dismissed.


Trump's rhetoric doesn't negate facts.

That's for sure!!!!!(LOL)

Deflection?

No, the heart of the matter(wink)

Now you want to blame the citizens.

Pist... citizens vote for um..... politicians are citizens themselves. Yep, I want to blame our citizenry



Okay. I'm done.

I'm not(wink)

You're dismissed(LOL)
 
The evidence illegal aliens return is not there. The current estimate places the illegal alien population in the US in excess of 20 million people.

I agree part of the solution is punitive penalties against employers who knowingly hire illegals. However, with stolen identities, and forged documents, that becomes difficult.

Pretty close to 100% of the illegal alien population uses forged documents and other felonious approaches to obtain employment.

On the point of the wall, the majority of apprehension occur in places where no manmade infrastructure exists. Walls work, when reviewing the available data.

Forged documents and felonious approaches are a matter that can be dealt with with strong law enforcement by thousands and thousands of well equipped inspectors. With the right manpower these forgeries can be spotted and thwarted.

Look, if there is money left for a wall, I'd support a limited use of this tool in some problematic places. If there is money left. Because I do think that money can be better spent elsewhere, or at the very least, can be FIRST spent elsewhere, on more efficient solutions.

Again, I'm against illegal immigration, but I favor efficient solutions rather than political posturing.
 
A few paragraphs? Over 5,000 words is not a few paragraphs.

I didn't say I wouldn't read what you had to say, I suggested you condense it for this format.

I assume you would want more than just me to read your opinion.

Yes, precisely, 9 paragraphs. In my opinion, they count as a few. Not even double-digits. A term paper? You probably haven't written too many term papers, if you think that a post and a half with 9 paragraphs qualifies as a term paper. And it's 5,000 characters, not 5,000 words. Pay attention.

I tried to present an organized and sensible argumentation. It is necessary to go part by part to fully understand this complex issue. If it takes 9 paragraphs to do so, so be it. If other people here don't have enough attention span to read 9 paragraphs, well, then, they aren't truly interested in putting some thought into it. I wouldn't be very interested in debating the issue with those people whose limited attention span makes them unable to truly contribute to a meaningful discussion. I'll prefer to debate with those who can pay attention to the issues I'm introducing; thank you very much.

Now I have to go. I have other errands to take care of, and will come back to this thread much later. Thank you for the limited attention you paid to my points; regretfully you don't want to read the whole thing, but at least you seem to have read some of it. Have a nice Saturday.
 
Forged documents and felonious approaches are a matter that can be dealt with with strong law enforcement by thousands and thousands of well equipped inspectors. With the right manpower these forgeries can be spotted and thwarted.

Look, if there is money left for a wall, I'd support a limited use of this tool in some problematic places. If there is money left. Because I do think that money can be better spent elsewhere, or at the very least, can be FIRST spent elsewhere, on more efficient solutions.

Again, I'm against illegal immigration, but I favor efficient solutions rather than political posturing.

How much experience do you have in identifying forged documents?

I'm against illegal immigration as well. I'm also for actual solutions that can work in the real world. A wall or fence works. CBP data proves that.

A multi pronged approach must be adopted.

First layer of defense is a wall/fence.

2nd layer, jobs. Mandatory jail and forfeiture of personal assets to pay for fines, for employers and employees who knowingly hire illegal aliens.

3rd layer, immediate and mandatory deportation of any illegal caught in the United States.

4th layer, punitive monetary penalties against sanctuary cities/states.
 
Forged documents and felonious approaches are a matter that can be dealt with with strong law enforcement by thousands and thousands of well equipped inspectors. With the right manpower these forgeries can be spotted and thwarted.

Look, if there is money left for a wall, I'd support a limited use of this tool in some problematic places. If there is money left. Because I do think that money can be better spent elsewhere, or at the very least, can be FIRST spent elsewhere, on more efficient solutions.

Again, I'm against illegal immigration, but I favor efficient solutions rather than political posturing
.
but that is exactly what kicked the can through many administration, talked about shortly before an election, then getting another kick.
If we want to deal with it, want to find a solution, esp for those who seek to come here, the time is now. Both sides are posturing, people are stuck in the middle.
Lets talk, lets solve this, that is what Trump is saying, clumsily. Thus far, no one dared to give an inch.
 
How much experience do you have in identifying forged documents?

I'm against illegal immigration as well. I'm also for actual solutions that can work in the real world. A wall or fence works. CBP data proves that.

A multi pronged approach must be adopted.

First layer of defense is a wall/fence.

2nd layer, jobs. Mandatory jail and forfeiture of personal assets to pay for fines, for employers and employees who knowingly hire illegal aliens.

3rd layer, immediate and mandatory deportation of any illegal caught in the United States.

4th layer, punitive monetary penalties against sanctuary cities/states.

I don't have any experience in identifying forged documents but certainly there are those who do have it, like some FBI agents, for example. Like I said, with the right manpower (people could be hired and trained to identify these forgeries, like some FBI agents are trained to do), this problem could be drastically reduced.

I basically agree with almost everything that you said above, except for the order of your layers. Like I said, I'd place a wall last, not first. I think the wall is the least efficient part of this multi-pronged approach that I do favor. Like I said, I have nothing against a limited used of physical barriers in chosen problematic areas, which as a matter of fact, is already done, and has already been funded by Congress.

Trump's approach, which is one of merely insisting in building a "beautiful wall" across the entire border, is stupid, hugely expensive, and is a poor use of taxpayer's money. By the way, his mantra was that Mexico would pay for it, right? Just this part shows to you how stupid his idea is.

This said, I don't think that Trump is a stupid man. Much the opposite, he has many talents. One of them, is how he identifies issues that his base cares about and how he picks words and phrases that they gobble up. His idea of a "beautiful wall" is, like someone has mentioned here, a shiny political object that fires up his base. This, the wall indeed is. What the wall isn't, is an efficient solution to curb illegal immigration, or at the very least, not the most efficient one, as clearly demonstrated by the fact that there is no wall along the Northern border and there is no significant illegal alien infiltration of the Northern border. Canadians don't come here illegally because they don't need our jobs. Mexicans and Central Americans do, because they need our jobs. It's not the wall, my friend. It's the jobs.

Trump who is not stupid, most likely knows that (given that his organization is one that has extensively hired illegal aliens), but instead of focusing on this (which would damage his personal interests and those of his buddies), he focuses on the wall.

I love your second and fourth layers. They are absolutely necessary, and a priority, in my opinion. About your third layer, see below.
 
Continued - oops, the 5,000 characters got me again.

Finally, your third layer, immediate deportation of any illegal caught in the United States, I think that it is lovely and needed. However, there is no way on Earth that this can be accomplished with the existing manpower. Again, the billions spent on a wall might be better spent beefing up that manpower. Because, think of it. Can we do it without any verification and judicial oversight? Not at all. It is not part of our values. We want to be a society that respects due process and gives right of defense to people. Without this oversight, the most egregious and arbitrary atrocities would be committed.

You arrest and immediately deport Juan Gonzales who is uneducated, unsophisticated, and speaks broken English if at all; he looks like an illegal alien and behaves like an illegal alien as at first he can't produce any documents, maybe never had any. Next thing, oops, Mr. Juan Gonzales is actually a legal citizen of the United States of America, having been born here, but misplaced his birth certificate and doesn't even know the specifics of it, at first sight, being confused and terrified and unable to fully understand everything that is happening to him.

Mr. Juan Gonzales needs a lawyer to be assigned to him if he can't afford one. He needs an immigration judge to look into it. The conclusion of this judicial oversight might be that "oops, we arrested the wrong guy, he is actually American." His case would be in the minority, but one wrongly deported American is one too many. To avoid these blunders, all of this process needs manpower.

Can we currently do this for all the 20 million people you say are illegally here (I thought it was more like 12 million, but whatever), plus do it for all the other thousands of bona fide citizens that might be wrongly caught in a sweeping raid? No, we cannot. Why? Because we don't even start having the manpower. Immigration courts are clogged up for months to years. The number of ICE agents is hugely insufficient to tackle the problem. Only the most shallow surface of it is scratched by our existing manpower.

So, that would be a better investment for the billions spent on the wall. By the way, stats that a wall works (in those points where there is a physical barrier, so in those locations illegal crossings decrease) are there because we don't have a complete wall across the entire border, so those points can be avoided, which is why stats decrease there - but then, people merely go elsewhere. The minute we do have a complete wall, like I said, the drug cartels that currently don't need to do this because they can use other crossing points, would make destroying and damaging as much of the wall as they could, a point of honor, and people smugglers who currently don't need to do this, would immediately switch to creative ways to defeat the wall.
 
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but that is exactly what kicked the can through many administration, talked about shortly before an election, then getting another kick.
If we want to deal with it, want to find a solution, esp for those who seek to come here, the time is now. Both sides are posturing, people are stuck in the middle.
Lets talk, lets solve this, that is what Trump is saying, clumsily. Thus far, no one dared to give an inch.

Sure, but I don't think that Trump is saying it, clumsily or not. Trump is also posturing. The beautiful wall blah blah I'll pay for it with emergency executive powers (oh wait, wasn't the Mexican government supposed to pay for it???), I'll slap Mexico with a 5% tariff (which we, American consumers, will pay for; and they will retaliate; Mexico is our second highest commercial partner). When Trump says that we should get together and find a solution, it is just to immediately blame Democrats and say they are obstructing, forgetting that he did have two years with full control of Congress by Republicans, and still, nothing was done. So, yeah, it's all political posturing. All of it. There is no appetite to actually solve the problem, like I said. Trump will love to keep the problem alive so that he can posture about it all the way to the 2020 election.
 
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