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Hidden harms of trump's corruption

It's the same logic that calls his release of document after document "a cover-up". It's quite humorous seeing all the same people who have whined that the redacted parts of the Mueller Report should be released, now acting appalled that the documents leading to the FISA warrants on Carter Page and others are being released. The palpable panic of Brennan and others on TV is quite telling. They are very afraid now. As was once said, sunshine is the best disinfectant and we're now going to see lots of it spread on the dealings of the FBI that led to this whole mess. The public deserves that at a minimum.

As for the redacted parts of the Mueller Report, they are redacted by law, law passed BY CONGRESS. The law is simply being followed yet the people responsible for it are the same ones acting as though something is being kept from them illegally. It's quite a show of hypocrisy and partisan political dishonesty.

It is rather hilarious to see the left trying to claim that Trump investigations are not a witch hunt but Barr's investigations into the beginnings of it all are a witch hunt and they are fighting it all tooth and nail while castigating Trump for fighting the House tooth and nail. Aren't Democratic House members interested in finding out the truth? Aren't they interested in proper oversight?
 
It is rather hilarious to see the left trying to claim that Trump investigations are not a witch hunt but Barr's investigations into the beginnings of it all are a witch hunt and they are fighting it all tooth and nail while castigating Trump for fighting the House tooth and nail. Aren't Democratic House members interested in finding out the truth? Aren't they interested in proper oversight?

The answers to your questions are no and no. The Dems are only interested in harming Trump. Collusion and obstruction failed. That's why they are now feverishly trying to get their hands on his tax returns or any other records they can unearth no matter how far back they go or how unrelated to his job performance they are. It's quite a brazen show of partisan zealotry being driven by ideological disease.

The funniest part is seeing the usual talking heads on TV now acting as though Trump is somehow subverting the law by bringing to light how we got here. It's dangerous they say. It compromises security they say. Of course, it does none of that. All it will do is expose their own corruption and illegality. The fact is that the previous administration weaponized the FBI and DOJ in a quest to ruin their political opposition. THAT is the real story here and, if that doesn't shock and dismay the majority of the public, then we will lose our country as we've known it.

When one political ideology gets the media, the educational system and other powerful agencies to do its bidding, then we are on the cusp of losing our freedom. I fear for the future here not because of Trump, (he will be gone after a short while) but because I see a remorseless devotion to ideology on the other side, one that will brook no opposition and will increasingly define any such opposition as mental illness or criminal activity. When the only acceptable positions and ideas are the ones that one side approves, oppression has arrived.
 
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Intresting that you think Trumps deserves the level of criticism he gets but think his accussers should be immune from his criticisms of them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Why do you assume you know what I think? If someone deserves criticism they'll get it, whoever they are-especially those presuming to put words in my mouth. That would be you; don't do it again.
 
In normal times I would agree immediately, but we're not anywhere near to normal. I agree about how he became president and I'm sure you speak for most who believe Don's just a 'blip' on our political scene, here today, gone tomorrow. I wish that were the case.

Don has an 80%+ approval rating by the Repubs. They know he lies everyday, they know how he kowtow's to our most dangerous adversary. They know, yet they deny, project and deflect. But that's not near as serious as the Senate Repubs doing the same thing.

When Don steps or is forced down, where will the 80% of the Repubs and their Senators go? They're not going away. Will they have learned their lesson and next time vote for a moral candidate who unites, or will they find someone who's an even worse, unhinged, racist megalomaniac? I think the answer is clear.

But I'm a pessimist...

I hope you're wrong but I'm afraid you're correct. I blame reagan for starting this whole mess by demonizing government and taxes. He started the downfall of the middle class while stoking the base of the GOP to believe government is evil. He started the exit of corporate america to foreign shores for cheaper labor. He was a union buster after being the head of a union when he was a private citizen. Now the base is in full hate thy neighbor mode, own the libs and send anyone not white back to wherever. The only way to defeat this is by voting people who hate out of office and never give them a chance to get back into power and do stupid things like the politicians in alabama and these other backward states. Again I ask, is it a coincidence that most of the poorest states in america are mostly southern states? Keep them stupid and mad and fire up their racism and they're yours. Never mind they are voting against their own best interests.
 
What trump has done is bad enough - saying the FBI and intelligence agencies are corrupt while Putin is right and our agencies are wrong, calling for the death penalty for his political 'opponents' including two former heads of the FBI, calling the press the 'enemy of the people', constantly lying that a "deep state" is trying to remove him in a "coup"...

But what is often forgotten is how he's also causing more harm by discrediting any of those attacks when they are actually accurate. It's a 'boy who cried wolf' problem.

Our agencies acting badly, even against Presidents' wishes, is a real problem - see the FBI's Cointelpro, see the CIA's misleading JFK on the Bay of Pigs and many other operations... treason can be a real issue, see Nixon sabotaging the president's peace efforts in Vietnam in 1968 to win an election... the press can harm the interests of the American people, as massive corporations interested in their own profits more than the American people's benefit, the right-wing
noise machine pumping out massive propaganda to mislead the country... the idea of a 'deep state' that can exist, including things like the far-right takeover of our courts for a Libertarian agenda to benefit the wealthy...

But when those things actually happen and people try to warn the public, the phrases get that 'boy who cried wolf' reaction because trump has cried wolf so much. Problems with five companies owning 90% of the media? Yawn, we heard it from trump and it was wrong. The CIA covering up its wrongdoing? Yawn, we heard it from trump and it was wrong.

The fact that this week trump was calling for the execution of the lawful investigators, including the heads of the FBI, people who have done nothing wrong to him, abusing his power as president, should have the country saying we have a crazy, murderous, unacceptable person in the White House - but find one trumpista who says that.

Nice to see someone who knows a bit of our real history and how dirty of a country we are.
 
I have no idea what to expect in years to come as we deal with the depravity which Trump has turned into the new normal.
I hate the term "new normal" because of the implication that this is in any way "normal". Trump's behavior is dangerously abnormal, as is the behavior of his acolytes and sycophants. I saw the bizarre press event where he polled his staff to affirm in public that he was calm during his previous temper tantrum, and their Skinnerian, dutiful responses. This, I think, exemplifies Craig's concern that prompted this thread.

Trump is a social corrosive. We've all experienced people like this in our lives, but never so publicly and with such power. My grandmother-in-law was one of these who was so narcissistic she drew out the worst in everyone. Trump does the same. But, I submit, he is as much symptom as catalyst.

There is always a strain of dishonesty and power obsession in politics (the source of "they all do it" memes, itself a corrosive). Some individuals are more prone to it than others, but it is generally held in check by decorum and process - the "norms" so often discussed of late. In Richard Nixon we got a real taste of the dangers of succumbing to those twin urges, but Nixon behaved that way in private, behaving, more or less, in public like a rational leader, and was "exposed" (and resigned) because of Watergate. As a result, the polity took a purgative, and passed a number of laws to try to prevent such abuses in the future.

But we, as a society, have short memories and don't keep our lessons well. Ronald Reagan brought us the "government is the problem" nostrum, and "we" accepted it, as if it had meaning. (He always struck me as a snake oil salesman.) That mild deception, though, was weaponized by Newt Gingrich and his spiritual successor, Karl Rove. Their excesses and designed deceptions became the "new way of doing business," and we let them get away with it.

Trump and McConnell are the predictable results of that pattern, utterly without moral compass, and brazen in their abuses.
 
What trump has done is bad enough - saying the FBI and intelligence agencies are corrupt while Putin is right and our agencies are wrong, calling for the death penalty for his political 'opponents' including two former heads of the FBI, calling the press the 'enemy of the people', constantly lying that a "deep state" is trying to remove him in a "coup"...

But what is often forgotten is how he's also causing more harm by discrediting any of those attacks when they are actually accurate. It's a 'boy who cried wolf' problem.

Our agencies acting badly, even against Presidents' wishes, is a real problem - see the FBI's Cointelpro, see the CIA's misleading JFK on the Bay of Pigs and many other operations... treason can be a real issue, see Nixon sabotaging the president's peace efforts in Vietnam in 1968 to win an election... the press can harm the interests of the American people, as massive corporations interested in their own profits more than the American people's benefit, the right-wing
noise machine pumping out massive propaganda to mislead the country... the idea of a 'deep state' that can exist, including things like the far-right takeover of our courts for a Libertarian agenda to benefit the wealthy...

But when those things actually happen and people try to warn the public, the phrases get that 'boy who cried wolf' reaction because trump has cried wolf so much. Problems with five companies owning 90% of the media? Yawn, we heard it from trump and it was wrong. The CIA covering up its wrongdoing? Yawn, we heard it from trump and it was wrong.

The fact that this week trump was calling for the execution of the lawful investigators, including the heads of the FBI, people who have done nothing wrong to him, abusing his power as president, should have the country saying we have a crazy, murderous, unacceptable person in the White House - but find one trumpista who says that.

So, in other words, what you're saying is that Trump should stop telling the truth. Because Democrats won't believe anything he says, no matter how obviously true.

Trump should stick to being a total moron liar, so that Democrats won't have to revise their image of him.
 
It's one thing for your average joe to accuse someone of Treason. It's another thing altogether when the president accuses someone of treason.

Apparently, the gravity of the president doing it, the epic irresponsibility of it is lost on you.

Everything is lost on those with a big mouth and no ears.
 
So, in other words, what you're saying is that Trump should stop telling the truth. Because Democrats won't believe anything he says, no matter how obviously true.

Trump should stick to being a total moron liar, so that Democrats won't have to revise their image of him.

I note, with derision, that not a single example of either Democratic lies or Trump "truths" is proffered. I suspect, for good reason.
 
Why do you assume you know what I think? If someone deserves criticism they'll get it, whoever they are-especially those presuming to put words in my mouth. That would be you; don't do it again.
Your own words tell us how you feel


What? It's your paranoid idiot president who is shaking confidence. Accusing everyone of conspiring against him, and threatening them like a pathetic, whining little bully who got confronted. He needs to go, and soon. He's ruining your once respected nation, turning it into a global laughing stock and insulting and alienating your allies. Nobody trusts him.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
So, in other words, what you're saying is that Trump should stop telling the truth. Because Democrats won't believe anything he says, no matter how obviously true.

Trump should stick to being a total moron liar, so that Democrats won't have to revise their image of him.

No, Democrats would like trump to start telling the truth.

You are very confused to not be able to read my posts so badly.
 
I note, with derision, that not a single example of either Democratic lies or Trump "truths" is proffered. I suspect, for good reason.

Actually, they might be able to offer that, for, say, 1 in 1000 cases - the problem is, they think if they can find one case out of 1000, then they 'win' and prove Republicans are in the right.
 
What trump has done is bad enough - saying the FBI and intelligence agencies are corrupt while Putin is right and our agencies are wrong, calling for the death penalty for his political 'opponents' including two former heads of the FBI, calling the press the 'enemy of the people', constantly lying that a "deep state" is trying to remove him in a "coup"...

But what is often forgotten is how he's also causing more harm by discrediting any of those attacks when they are actually accurate. It's a 'boy who cried wolf' problem.

Our agencies acting badly, even against Presidents' wishes, is a real problem - see the FBI's Cointelpro, see the CIA's misleading JFK on the Bay of Pigs and many other operations... treason can be a real issue, see Nixon sabotaging the president's peace efforts in Vietnam in 1968 to win an election... the press can harm the interests of the American people, as massive corporations interested in their own profits more than the American people's benefit, the right-wing
noise machine pumping out massive propaganda to mislead the country... the idea of a 'deep state' that can exist, including things like the far-right takeover of our courts for a Libertarian agenda to benefit the wealthy...

But when those things actually happen and people try to warn the public, the phrases get that 'boy who cried wolf' reaction because trump has cried wolf so much. Problems with five companies owning 90% of the media? Yawn, we heard it from trump and it was wrong. The CIA covering up its wrongdoing? Yawn, we heard it from trump and it was wrong.

The fact that this week trump was calling for the execution of the lawful investigators, including the heads of the FBI, people who have done nothing wrong to him, abusing his power as president, should have the country saying we have a crazy, murderous, unacceptable person in the White House - but find one trumpista who says that.
You understand the term "heads will roll" doesn't me LITERALLY, right? :lol:
 
Treason has a death penalty. He's accused Comey, McCabe, Stzrok , etc., of treason.

Of course, he has no clue as to what the definition of treason is.



So what should we do with Trump and Brennan?
 
Just think. The head of the CIA accused the POTUS of treason and the partisan hacks on the left did not have a problem with that.
 
And trump saying so must make it true.

Well, no, not on just what Trump says.

It goes back to the 'factual predicate' that Barr testified to before congress. If there was legal factual predicate to justify the spying and investigation, if there was no criminality, if there was no abuse of government power, if there was no malfeasance and no violation of constitutional rights, then it's all good.

Should the factual predicate not be met, should any one of those other things have occurred, then indictments will be flied, crimes will be charged, and heavy sentences will be, or should be, handed out against the offenders.

That a sitting president uses the agencies of government against political opponents simply cannot be allowed to stand. If not punished severely enough, it'll only recur.
 
Just think. The head of the CIA accused the POTUS of treason and the partisan hacks on the left did not have a problem with that.

Your 'president' isn't a deity, and neither is he above the law-nor is he immune from accusations. It would be more honest of you to wait and see if there's any truth to the allegations rather than feigning outrage over something you know little about.
 
Well, no, not on just what Trump says.

It goes back to the 'factual predicate' that Barr testified to before congress. If there was legal factual predicate to justify the spying and investigation, if there was no criminality, if there was no abuse of government power, if there was no malfeasance and no violation of constitutional rights, then it's all good.

Should the factual predicate not be met, should any one of those other things have occurred, then indictments will be flied, crimes will be charged, and heavy sentences will be, or should be, handed out against the offenders.

That a sitting president uses the agencies of government against political opponents simply cannot be allowed to stand. If not punished severely enough, it'll only recur.

Let's see we had Comey and Mueller involved and from everything I can gather these two guys are pretty upstanding people. I disregard the noise from the right, it's clear they will defend trump at any cost. I hope the trump administration has barr investigate until their hearts are content. To think that so many people and judges had to be involved in some giant conspiracy to oust the president is just flat out insane. However, the GOP has become the party of insane. I predict a loss of the other two branches the GOP now holds next election.
 
Your 'president' isn't a deity, and neither is he above the law-nor is he immune from accusations. It would be more honest of you to wait and see if there's any truth to the allegations rather than feigning outrage over something you know little about.

That would require not posting since the latter category subsumes the world of knowledge.
 
Let's see we had Comey and Mueller involved and from everything I can gather these two guys are pretty upstanding people.

Comey signed off on FISA warrants and extensions, when the FBI already knew the Steele dossier was little more than a fabrication from Russian intel disinformation specialists. Mueller knew early on in his investigation that this was the case, yet continued his investigation looking for little more than 'process crimes' to charge Trump campaign members with. Both of those facts tarnish both of them.

I don't think Mueller's either Republican nor Democrat. I think he's a life long FBI man. A bureaucrat.

Mueller could do no better than staffing his investigation team with little more than hard core anti-Trump Democrats? Not even a single Republican for some sort of balance and differing perspective on things? Not a single one? Seems a rather odd skew in staffing there, if you ask me.

And another thing about Mueller's staffing. The DOJ appoints a Special Council when it has conflicts of interest with an investigation. If this is the case, then wouldn't those same conflicts of interest be present when all of Mueller's staff was drawn from the DOJ?

Mueller's not fallen into favor with the federal judges while prosecuting these cases. He's received their ire, and from what I recall, more than one has objected to Mueller's prosecutorial tactics. So no boy scout he, which many make him out to be.

I disregard the noise from the right, it's clear they will defend trump at any cost. I hope the trump administration has barr investigate until their hearts are content. To think that so many people and judges had to be involved in some giant conspiracy to oust the president is just flat out insane. However, the GOP has become the party of insane. I predict a loss of the other two branches the GOP now holds next election.

The Russian intel disinformation specialists, Trubnikov and Surkov, duped Steele, this bad intel white washed into legitimacy by 'reliable source' Steele, and then used to commit fraud on the FISA court as a 'reliable source'.

  • Christopher Steele told a State Department official a former Russian spy chief and a top Kremlin adviser were involved in an operation to collect compromising information on Donald Trump.
  • The State Department official’s notes also indicate Steele claimed the Russians, Vyacheslav Trubnikov and Vladislav Surkov, were “sources” for the dossier.
  • There is no evidence the compromising material mentioned in the dossier actually exists, raising questions about whether Steele was given disinformation.
  • Trubnikov, the former head of the SVR, also has links to Stefan Halper, an FBI informant who had contact with the Trump campaign.

Kavalec took the notes during an Oct. 11, 2016, meeting with Steele at State Department headquarters. The documents, which were released earlier in May by Citizens United and first reported on by The Hill, show Steele laid out many of the same allegations about Trump and his advisers that are found in the infamous dossier.

The notes contain several inaccuracies, including that Russia was running operations out of its consulate in Miami. As Kavalec pointed out, Russia does not have a consulate in Miami.
Steele Identified Russian Dossier Sources, Notes Reveal | The Daily Caller

A 'verified source' that doesn't know that there is no Russian consulate in Miami? Really?

What makes this particularly damning[FONT=lucida_granderegular] is that the FBI swore on October 21, 2016 to the FISA judges that [/FONT]Steele's "reporting has been corroborated and used in criminal proceedings,"[FONT=lucida_granderegular] and that [/FONT]the FBI deemed him to be "reliable" and was "unaware of any derogatory information[FONT=lucida_granderegular] pertaining" to the former British spy who was working for Fusion GPS - the firm paid by the DNC and the Clinton campaign to come up with dirt on Donald Trump. [/FONT]
FBI's Steele Story Unravels - Claims Debunked, Leaks Suspected Before FISA Application | Zero Hedge

I leave you to make your own conclusions, but frankly, this all smells not of legitimate and required 'factual predicate' and far more so a case of political motivations to white wash and legitimize little more than rumors as a lame and insufficient justification for using federal agencies to spy on a political opposition presidential campaign, something that must not be allowed to stand, for fear of the future of the Republic. Put another way, would you allow and accept the Trump administration to use the CIA and FBI to spy on, surveil, if you prefer, the democratic presidential nominee?
 
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Comey signed off on FISA warrants and extensions, when the FBI already knew the Steele dossier was little more than a fabrication from Russian intel disinformation specialists. Mueller knew early on in his investigation that this was the case, yet continued his investigation looking for little more than 'process crimes' to charge Trump campaign members with. Both of those facts tarnish both of them.

I don't think Mueller's either Republican nor Democrat. I think he's a life long FBI man. A bureaucrat.

Mueller could do no better than staffing his investigation team with little more than hard core anti-Trump Democrats? Not even a single Republican for some sort of balance and differing perspective on things? Not a single one? Seems a rather odd skew in staffing there, if you ask me.

And another thing about Mueller's staffing. The DOJ appoints a Special Council when it has conflicts of interest with an investigation. If this is the case, then wouldn't those same conflicts of interest be present when all of Mueller's staff was drawn from the DOJ?

Mueller's not fallen into favor with the federal judges while prosecuting these cases. He's received their ire, and from what I recall, more than one has objected to Mueller's prosecutorial tactics. So no boy scout he, which many make him out to be.



The Russian intel disinformation specialists, Trubnikov and Surkov, duped Steele, this bad intel white washed into legitimacy by 'reliable source' Steele, and then used to commit fraud on the FISA court as a 'reliable source'.



A 'verified source' that doesn't know that there is no Russian consulate in Miami? Really?



I leave you to make your own conclusions, but frankly, this all smells not of legitimate and required 'factual predicate' and far more so a case of political motivations to white wash and legitimize little more than rumors as a lame and insufficient justification for using federal agencies to spy on a political opposition presidential campaign, something that must not be allowed to stand, for fear of the future of the Republic. Put another way, would you allow and accept the Trump administration to use the CIA and FBI to spy on, surveil, if you prefer, the democratic presidential nominee?

Time will tell.
 
I hope you're wrong but I'm afraid you're correct. I blame reagan for starting this whole mess by demonizing government and taxes. He started the downfall of the middle class while stoking the base of the GOP to believe government is evil. He started the exit of corporate america to foreign shores for cheaper labor. He was a union buster after being the head of a union when he was a private citizen. Now the base is in full hate thy neighbor mode, own the libs and send anyone not white back to wherever. The only way to defeat this is by voting people who hate out of office and never give them a chance to get back into power and do stupid things like the politicians in alabama and these other backward states. Again I ask, is it a coincidence that most of the poorest states in america are mostly southern states? Keep them stupid and mad and fire up their racism and they're yours. Never mind they are voting against their own best interests.

Yea, if those Southern states are lucky, they can look even more like Detroit, St. Louis, Chicago or Baltimore. Maybe even have homeless people lying all over the streets fouling their surroundings like in SF or Seattle. Maybe invite in even bigger swarms of illegal aliens to compete for jobs. What's wrong with them?
 
Yea, if those Southern states are lucky, they can look even more like Detroit, St. Louis, Chicago or Baltimore. Maybe even have homeless people lying all over the streets fouling their surroundings like in SF or Seattle. Maybe invite in even bigger swarms of illegal aliens to compete for jobs. What's wrong with them?

What's wrong with them? Decades of exclusive Democratically controlled local government. But it is the local's choice to vote for. Seems they've voted for those conditions. Why is anyone guess.
 
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