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A (belated) comment on trump's election

Craig234 said:
This comment isn't about all trump voters, but the large portion to whom trump's appeal was largely about his opposition to other groups - non-white, illegal immigrants, Muslims, etc.

That 'average American white voter' belongs to multiple groups, and could pick which group mattered in the election.

One group is the economic division, where the ultra wealthy, the plutocrats are the 'other group' they're at odds with, who are taking the money and power in the country out of the hands of the American people, where three people have as much wealth as half the country's citizens.

Another group they could felt mattered was 'white people' versus other groups - the above mentioned non-whites, refugees, Muslims, etc.

The election was largely about which group each party could make voters care about. If Democrats succeeded in getting those voters to care about the groups based on wealth, they won. If trump could get groups to care about the groups based on race (and willing to base votes on hate and superiority), he won.

Bernie would have been a great leader for getting voters to base votes on the wealth issues. Hillary, painted, with reasons, as someone so close to Wall Street, was not. And so too many of those voters voted more on trump's race issues than Democrats' wealth issues. And so they got what they wanted, trump, and his support of plutocracy, but also his ongoing hostility to other racial groups.

This remains a challenge for 2020.

Democrats have to make those voters, if they want their votes, vote on the wealth issues. Not only are those voters largely unchanged about these things this election, many of them don't even understand that there are these wealth issues. They only see the fear issues, about immigrants, Muslims, etc. It's up to Democrats to do better educating this time. I don't think Biden would be the best, though he'd be better than Hillary on it.
Click to expand...

I disagree on the priorities you raise.

The number one issue to most voters is health care, and on that issue, the Democrats lead. In fact, many Republicans are not even addressing this issue now, because they know that voters are on to them, claiming they'll repeal the ACA and give us "something better" when all the while they are working to eliminate protections for the more than half of us with pre-existing conditions.

The economy comes in at number two on the issues voters care about. The wealth gap is further down the list.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Muslim is not a "race," it is a term referring to someone who believes in Islam. There are white Muslims, as Malcolm X found when he went on Hajj.

Immigration involves nationality, i.e. someone from one nation seeking to move to and become a member of another nation.

Try again. :coffeepap:
Click to expand...

It may as well be a race in regards to the hatred towards them by white Americans.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Perhaps you could 'educate" yourself first................ on how little "race" is a issue with white voters.
Click to expand...

Survey after survey has borne out that white anxiety was a predominant characteristic of the Trump voter. He's practically a white supremacist himself.
 
Idiometer said:
It may as well be a race in regards to the hatred towards them by white Americans.
Click to expand...

Sure. Race is a social construction created around the idea of inclusion and exclusion. In that way, Muslims certainly represent a race.
 
j brown's body said:
Sure. Race is a social construction created around the idea of inclusion and exclusion. In that way, Muslims certainly represent a race.
Click to expand...

While that is in some ways satisfying, it ultimately fails.

1. One can change or fake one's religion.

2. Your position is based on Muslims being a minority power and thereby subject to privilege. It's not actually based in religion as we can see in an attempt to equate Christianity and race. There we see the basis of your position, minority status and not religion.

But none of that nuance really matters and it's beyond the grasp of the average Islamophobe.

Being an Islamophobe is racist because Muslim is presumed brown.
 
Craig234 said:
This comment isn't about all trump voters, but the large portion to whom trump's appeal was largely about his opposition to other groups - non-white, illegal immigrants, Muslims, etc.

That 'average American white voter' belongs to multiple groups, and could pick which group mattered in the election.

One group is the economic division, where the ultra wealthy, the plutocrats are the 'other group' they're at odds with, who are taking the money and power in the country out of the hands of the American people, where three people have as much wealth as half the country's citizens.

Another group they could felt mattered was 'white people' versus other groups - the above mentioned non-whites, refugees, Muslims, etc.

The election was largely about which group each party could make voters care about. If Democrats succeeded in getting those voters to care about the groups based on wealth, they won. If trump could get groups to care about the groups based on race (and willing to base votes on hate and superiority), he won.

Bernie would have been a great leader for getting voters to base votes on the wealth issues. Hillary, painted, with reasons, as someone so close to Wall Street, was not. And so too many of those voters voted more on trump's race issues than Democrats' wealth issues. And so they got what they wanted, trump, and his support of plutocracy, but also his ongoing hostility to other racial groups.

This remains a challenge for 2020.

Democrats have to make those voters, if they want their votes, vote on the wealth issues. Not only are those voters largely unchanged about these things this election, many of them don't even understand that there are these wealth issues. They only see the fear issues, about immigrants, Muslims, etc. It's up to Democrats to do better educating this time. I don't think Biden would be the best, though he'd be better than Hillary on it.
Click to expand...

I agree. Both sides ran on hating each other. And that will be the focus of the next election. Not sure that's really the best ethical way for either side to be using, though. Democrats should be educating people about how voluntarily sharing the wealth would help everyone, rather than 'educating' the majority to hate the minority of people more successful than them, Christians, or rural people. Republicans should be educating people on how small govt and fiscal responsibility will have a better impact on your happiness than hating illegals or gays.

I dont see it happening though. The media lives on hate, the politicians know division sells better than history or reason.
 
Idiometer said:
I disagree on the priorities you raise.

The number one issue to most voters is health care, and on that issue, the Democrats lead. In fact, many Republicans are not even addressing this issue now, because they know that voters are on to them, claiming they'll repeal the ACA and give us "something better" when all the while they are working to eliminate protections for the more than half of us with pre-existing conditions.

The economy comes in at number two on the issues voters care about. The wealth gap is further down the list.
Click to expand...

Actually its trump (leadership), followed by immigration, if you believe polls. I assume thats down party lines though. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Dems actually talked about Healthcare instead of Trump all the time. I suppose Trump works better to outrage people than healthcare.

Most Important Problem | Gallup Historical Trends
 
jonny5 said:
Actually its trump (leadership), followed by immigration, if you believe polls. I assume thats down party lines though. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Dems actually talked about Healthcare instead of Trump all the time. I suppose Trump works better to outrage people than healthcare.

Most Important Problem | Gallup Historical Trends
Click to expand...

No outrage like we saw when the guy with the funny name and black skin walked into the White's house. Righties lost their minds when he was elected. They still do, as we see with many posters here who still insist on reminding everyone his middle name is Hussein.
 
Craig234 said:
This comment isn't about all trump voters, but the large portion to whom trump's appeal was largely about his opposition to other groups - non-white, illegal immigrants, Muslims, etc.

That 'average American white voter' belongs to multiple groups, and could pick which group mattered in the election.

One group is the economic division, where the ultra wealthy, the plutocrats are the 'other group' they're at odds with, who are taking the money and power in the country out of the hands of the American people, where three people have as much wealth as half the country's citizens.

Another group they could felt mattered was 'white people' versus other groups - the above mentioned non-whites, refugees, Muslims, etc.

The election was largely about which group each party could make voters care about. If Democrats succeeded in getting those voters to care about the groups based on wealth, they won. If trump could get groups to care about the groups based on race (and willing to base votes on hate and superiority), he won.

Bernie would have been a great leader for getting voters to base votes on the wealth issues. Hillary, painted, with reasons, as someone so close to Wall Street, was not. And so too many of those voters voted more on trump's race issues than Democrats' wealth issues. And so they got what they wanted, trump, and his support of plutocracy, but also his ongoing hostility to other racial groups.

This remains a challenge for 2020.

Democrats have to make those voters, if they want their votes, vote on the wealth issues. Not only are those voters largely unchanged about these things this election, many of them don't even understand that there are these wealth issues. They only see the fear issues, about immigrants, Muslims, etc. It's up to Democrats to do better educating this time. I don't think Biden would be the best, though he'd be better than Hillary on it.
Click to expand...

Given that you think President Trump won on opposition to groups--"non-white, illegal immigrants, Muslims, etc."--I think it is time to post my list again. I keep finding things to add to it and it savesa lot of time:

In the minds of most anti-Trump people, President Trump and anybody who works for him, contributes to his campaign, votes for him, or otherwise supports him will be a person who is:

RACIST
Prejudiced
Bigoted
Deplorable
Hateful
Nazi
Fascist
Violent
White Supremacist
Sexist
Xenophobic
Fear brown people
Islamophobic
Homophobic
Christian sharia
Basement dwellers
Birthers
Misogynistic
Teabaggers
Greedy
Uncaring
Insensitive
Hate the poor
Want to keep the poor in poverty
Want to reinstitute poll taxes, segregation, Jim Crow laws
Violate every person's bedroom and every woman's womb
Smelly Walmart people
Low information
Uneducated
Unscientific
Environmentally irresponsible
Clinging to their guns and religion
and white women vote according to how their husbands, bosses, and boyfriends tell them to vote.

I'll be happy to add onto it.

The truth is though that those who work for, contribute to, vote for, and/or otherwise support President Trump do so because they are FOR the same things he is for:

--A vision that makes America great again
--Encouraging American investment in commerce and industry
--A tax code and regulatory system that unleashes American potential to build, invest, grow, expand, and put everybody to work who wants a job. (That has already put more hard core unemployed people back to work in private sector jobs than at any other time in my lifetime.)
--A sensible immigration policy that encourage those who want to be AMERICAN to come here legally and with our blessings and discourages anybody else from doing so.
--Naturally raising the standard of living for all.
--Daring to step away from a stagnant status quo and be willing to think outside the box to get important things done.
--A vision that keeps America so strong on land, at sea, and in space to the extent that nobody will dare mess with us and we won't need to go to war with anybody.
--Appreciation for constitutional intent, not as some wish to interpret it for their own purposes, and respect for the unalienable rights of the people to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness however they define that.

Everybody else looks to oppose the President, oppose the Republicans, oppose any policy that they didn't initiate, and put more and more government in control of every aspect of human life.
 
KevinKohler said:
Is this a change from any republican vs democrat election?
Click to expand...

Yes, it is. The percentage of black votes is usually higher than that for GOP candidates. But Trump is known to be virulently racist, and black voters are not stupid. They know full well which party is inclusive and respectful of others.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Given that you think President Trump won on opposition to groups--"non-white, illegal immigrants, Muslims, etc."--I think it is time to post my list again. I keep finding things to add to it and it savesa lot of time:

In the minds of most anti-Trump people, President Trump and anybody who works for him, contributes to his campaign, votes for him, or otherwise supports him will be a person who is:

RACIST
Prejudiced
Bigoted
Deplorable
Hateful
Nazi
Fascist
Violent
White Supremacist
Sexist
Xenophobic
Fear brown people
Islamophobic
Homophobic
Christian sharia
Basement dwellers
Birthers
Misogynistic
Teabaggers
Greedy
Uncaring
Insensitive
Hate the poor
Want to keep the poor in poverty
Want to reinstitute poll taxes, segregation, Jim Crow laws
Violate every person's bedroom and every woman's womb
Smelly Walmart people
Low information
Uneducated
Unscientific
Environmentally irresponsible
Clinging to their guns and religion
and white women vote according to how their husbands, bosses, and boyfriends tell them to vote.

I'll be happy to add onto it.

The truth is though that those who work for, contribute to, vote for, and/or otherwise support President Trump do so because they are FOR the same things he is for:

--A vision that makes America great again
--Encouraging American investment in commerce and industry
--A tax code and regulatory system that unleashes American potential to build, invest, grow, expand, and put everybody to work who wants a job. (That has already put more hard core unemployed people back to work in private sector jobs than at any other time in my lifetime.)
--A sensible immigration policy that encourage those who want to be AMERICAN to come here legally and with our blessings and discourages anybody else from doing so.
--Naturally raising the standard of living for all.
--Daring to step away from a stagnant status quo and be willing to think outside the box to get important things done.
--A vision that keeps America so strong on land, at sea, and in space to the extent that nobody will dare mess with us and we won't need to go to war with anybody.
--Appreciation for constitutional intent, not as some wish to interpret it for their own purposes, and respect for the unalienable rights of the people to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness however they define that.

Everybody else looks to oppose the President, oppose the Republicans, oppose any policy that they didn't initiate, and put more and more government in control of every aspect of human life.
Click to expand...

You forgot "stupid."
 
AlbqOwl said:
In the minds of most anti-Trump people, President Trump and anybody who works for him, contributes to his campaign, votes for him, or otherwise supports him will be a person who is:
Click to expand...

Except my post explicitly said not all trump voters fit the topic.

The truth is though that those who work for, contribute to, vote for, and/or otherwise support President Trump do so because they are FOR the same things he is for:

--A vision that makes America great again
Click to expand...

The truth of that saying is simply trump's utter lack of any thought, and his plagiarism. Every candidate can said to be promising to 'make America great'; in times of dissatisfaction, you can add 'again'. Candidates are typically pretty banal about this (Hillary, 'I'm with her'? 'Jeb!' Bush?)

But it's hard to find one as unimaginative and plagiarizing as trump, simply copying Reagan's slogan, "Let's Make America Great Again". The fact that some view that as some great leadership by trump instead of a lack of it, shows how con jobs work.

"--Encouraging American investment in commerce and industry"

Except his policies have not done that almost at all - even his signature showcases for 'preventing American job losses' have pretty much all seemed to turn into the jobs being lost. What he has done is what almost every economist says is bad for the American people, on trade wars and tariffs. It's pretty simple - he's incompetent. As he now wrongly says China is paying the US many billions in tariffs...

"--A tax code and regulatory system that unleashes American potential to build, invest, grow, expand, and put everybody to work who wants a job. (That has already put more hard core unemployed people back to work in private sector jobs than at any other time in my lifetime.)"

Wrong again. What he's actually done is to OPPOSE growth and opportunity, by FURTHER increasing inequality - transferring trillions from the American people to the most wealthy, mostly for stock buybacks, and almost no job increases from his policies, buying a bit of short-term prosperity on the national credit card, just like Reagan and the Bushes. The prosperity is simply a continuation of the Obama economy, a bit worse in improvement than under Obama.

"--A sensible immigration policy that encourage those who want to be AMERICAN to come here legally and with our blessings and discourages anybody else from doing so."

You're simply posting ignorant things you make up wanting to be the policies.

"--Naturally raising the standard of living for all."

Not sure what "naturally" is supposed to mean, but he is only worsening the standard of living for nearly all Americans (except the billionaires) compared to Democratic policies. Again, his only major act has been that transfer of trillions to the most rich, coming from the national credit card and healthcare cuts (he had promised not to make).

"--Daring to step away from a stagnant status quo and be willing to think outside the box to get important things done."

You sound like a Dilbert cartoon parodying talk about synergistic dynamics. He's not doing any such thing fitting those buzzwords - as I said, his only big act was yet another redistribution of America's wealth to the most rich and his harmful trade policies.

"--A vision that keeps America so strong on land, at sea, and in space to the extent that nobody will dare mess with us and we won't need to go to war with anybody."

By weakening - in fact, trashing - the US reputation and influence with all our allies globally, while empowering the worst dictators, embracing them, and undermining the rule of law and morality. Making enemies of our friends, and supporting the worst leaders. Even welcoming more foreign attacks on our elections, since they're done for his benefit.

--Appreciation for constitutional intent, not as some wish to interpret it for their own purposes, and respect for the unalienable rights of the people to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness however they define that.
Click to expand...

It's like reading a six year old trying to repeat a bad speech. He's appointing corrupt judges the plutocrats have groomed to destroy the American people's protections in the constitution, and you're oblivious, thinking it's about gun rights and abortion.

Everybody else looks to oppose the President, oppose the Republicans, oppose any policy that they didn't initiate, and put more and more government in control of every aspect of human life.
Click to expand...

You forgot the Democrats' agenda to require child sex and eat babies while you make up lies.
 
jonny5 said:
I agree. Both sides ran on hating each other. And that will be the focus of the next election. Not sure that's really the best ethical way for either side to be using, though. Democrats should be educating people about how voluntarily sharing the wealth would help everyone, rather than 'educating' the majority to hate the minority of people more successful than them, Christians, or rural people. Republicans should be educating people on how small govt and fiscal responsibility will have a better impact on your happiness than hating illegals or gays.

I dont see it happening though. The media lives on hate, the politicians know division sells better than history or reason.
Click to expand...

I appreciate you thinking you agreed, but you really misunderstood the topic, posting false equivalencies. You make some valid points about the benefit of running on issues, though, while you seem unaware of the perverse irony of Republicans running on the benefits of small government (only small for government for the people) and fiscal responsibility (the party behind all of the massive deficit increases).

You seem unaware that it's not about 'the good of the country' when they choose to be the party of 'hating illegals or gays', it's simply about chasing votes with pandering to try to make those the issues instead of the harm their policies do. With no offense, you sound naive, and I think that's both a compliment and criticism.
 
Craig234 said:
This comment isn't about all trump voters, but the large portion to whom trump's appeal was largely about his opposition to other groups - non-white, illegal immigrants, Muslims, etc.

That 'average American white voter' belongs to multiple groups, and could pick which group mattered in the election.

One group is the economic division, where the ultra wealthy, the plutocrats are the 'other group' they're at odds with, who are taking the money and power in the country out of the hands of the American people, where three people have as much wealth as half the country's citizens.

Another group they could felt mattered was 'white people' versus other groups - the above mentioned non-whites, refugees, Muslims, etc.

The election was largely about which group each party could make voters care about. If Democrats succeeded in getting those voters to care about the groups based on wealth, they won. If trump could get groups to care about the groups based on race (and willing to base votes on hate and superiority), he won.

Bernie would have been a great leader for getting voters to base votes on the wealth issues. Hillary, painted, with reasons, as someone so close to Wall Street, was not. And so too many of those voters voted more on trump's race issues than Democrats' wealth issues. And so they got what they wanted, trump, and his support of plutocracy, but also his ongoing hostility to other racial groups.

This remains a challenge for 2020.

Democrats have to make those voters, if they want their votes, vote on the wealth issues. Not only are those voters largely unchanged about these things this election, many of them don't even understand that there are these wealth issues. They only see the fear issues, about immigrants, Muslims, etc. It's up to Democrats to do better educating this time. I don't think Biden would be the best, though he'd be better than Hillary on it.
Click to expand...

The non-stop racist Democratic Party race-baiting is boring and tiresome.

How did it take the OPer over 2 years to start chanting the racist talking points of the racist Democratic Party?
 
calamity said:
Hit too close to home, eh?

The past year of research has made it very clear: Trump won because of racial resentment - Vox
Click to expand...

:lamo

So they invented something to tag onto Trump voters. Even though it doesn't actually pertain to a majority of Trump voters and only focuses on race as a singular aspect...
Vox is so damn pathetic man and it just had to link to WaPo as well.. nice non-partisan pick for the article by the way.. (noted sarcasm spike)
I mean the repeated use of the same tired lies about things Trump has said. Should've been a dead giveaway for anyone who even remotely thought that this article would be credible.

It's not bad enough to be reminded how poor the post is doing these days. With them begging for money nearly every time I stop by and I already ****ing subscribed.
Alright calamity. Show me the coloration in that this "study" that shows is proof for the previous claim.

Because all their doing is trying to invent a demographic of Trump voter that most likely doesn't exist in such a recognizable number.
 
I think a lot of normal people got sick of pandering ,virtue signaling ,self hating white liberals calling everybody else racists every three seconds.

These kind of people have resulted in a 33 % increase in bulemia.They are that hard to stomach.

This thread is full of them.
 
Craig234 said:
I appreciate you thinking you agreed, but you really misunderstood the topic, posting false equivalencies. You make some valid points about the benefit of running on issues, though, while you seem unaware of the perverse irony of Republicans running on the benefits of small government (only small for government for the people) and fiscal responsibility (the party behind all of the massive deficit increases).

You seem unaware that it's not about 'the good of the country' when they choose to be the party of 'hating illegals or gays', it's simply about chasing votes with pandering to try to make those the issues instead of the harm their policies do. With no offense, you sound naive, and I think that's both a compliment and criticism.
Click to expand...

Speaking of being self unaware, you still think only Republicans are the problem. What you point out in the op wont change until you clean up your own house first.
 
Craig234 said:
Your post shows you do not understand the issue *at all*. The way you and others get the things you say you want is through less inequality. You don't understand the harm of plutocracy.
Click to expand...

What issue is it that I don't understand?

What is the problem you perceive that rises with less inequality?

What is your prescription for eliminating the perceived "harm" of the rich on the government?
 
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