What's the difference?

Somerville · May 18, 2019

Being curious after reading another thread attacking NYC for strict gun-control laws, I found the CDC's page on Homicide Mortality by State. As soon as I saw the map, there was one thing that popped out - there are two groups of states with low homicide rates. One group is New England, the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The other group is made up of Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota and Minnesota.

Why are these states so dissimilar in their laws, urbanisation and population demographics, yet they have similar low homicide rates?

Hopefully, this question will kick off a reasonable discussion because it shows us that there is something other than gun control laws, whether pro-gun or anti-gun, that creates safer social environments.

Neomalthusian · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Being curious after reading another thread attacking NYC for strict gun-control laws, I found the CDC's page on Homicide Mortality by State. As soon as I saw the map, there was one thing that popped out - there are two groups of states with low homicide rates. One group is New England, the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The other group is made up of Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota and Minnesota.

Why are these states so dissimilar in their laws, urbanisation and population demographics, yet they have similar low homicide rates?

Hopefully, this question will kick off a reasonable discussion because it shows us that there is something other than gun control laws, whether pro-gun or anti-gun, that creates safer social environments.

See any correlation with this and poverty rates? Maybe not a super strong one, but maybe something...

Somerville · May 18, 2019

There is a bit of correlation between poverty rates and murder rates but not quite equal. The CDC map I linked to only shows total homicide rates for the year 2018 and not just gun-related murder average rates over 10 years.

AmNat · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Being curious after reading another thread attacking NYC for strict gun-control laws, I found the CDC's page on Homicide Mortality by State. As soon as I saw the map, there was one thing that popped out - there are two groups of states with low homicide rates. One group is New England, the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The other group is made up of Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota and Minnesota.

Why are these states so dissimilar in their laws, urbanisation and population demographics, yet they have similar low homicide rates?

Hopefully, this question will kick off a reasonable discussion because it shows us that there is something other than gun control laws, whether pro-gun or anti-gun, that creates safer social environments.

White people commit crimes at a much lower rate than blacks, so places inhabited mainly by white people have lower homicide rates. It really isn't complicated.

ttwtt78640 · May 18, 2019

Neomalthusian said:
See any correlation with this and poverty rates? Maybe not a super strong one, but maybe something...

Hmm... how much of the proceeds from criminal activity do you suppose is reported as income?

AlbqOwl · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Being curious after reading another thread attacking NYC for strict gun-control laws, I found the CDC's page on Homicide Mortality by State. As soon as I saw the map, there was one thing that popped out - there are two groups of states with low homicide rates. One group is New England, the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The other group is made up of Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota and Minnesota.

Why are these states so dissimilar in their laws, urbanisation and population demographics, yet they have similar low homicide rates?

Hopefully, this question will kick off a reasonable discussion because it shows us that there is something other than gun control laws, whether pro-gun or anti-gun, that creates safer social environments.

The states you mention are largely ethnically homogeneous without large groups of people that are distinctly different than the prevailing culture. And the prevailing culture is not militantly minded or oriented, and what groups exist that do not share the prevailing culture are not predisposed to violence.

I haven't looked up the stats, but I would lay odds that churches are an integral part of those cultures and you will find the traditional two-parent family to be the norm rather than the exception.

Somerville · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
White people commit crimes at a much lower rate than blacks, so places inhabited mainly by white people have lower homicide rates. It really isn't complicated.

Obviously not "complicated" for those unable to see past their personal biases but for those who care to think about the problems, crime rates and possible solutions, even partial ones, are incredibly complex.

Why is it only "white people" who steal large sums of money from the gullible and many times escape prosecution? Why are some 'Christian' preachers raking in millions from their low-income congregations? Why did Wayne LaPierre spend a couple hundred thousand in a Beverly Hills boutique and write them off as "business expenses"?

Racism does cause people to say and do stupid things.

AmNat · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Obviously not "complicated" for those unable to see past their personal biases but for those who care to think about the problems, crime rates and possible solutions, even partial ones, are incredibly complex.

Why is it only "white people" who steal large sums of money from the gullible and many times escape prosecution? Why are some 'Christian' preachers raking in millions from their low-income congregations? Why did Wayne LaPierre spend a couple hundred thousand in a Beverly Hills boutique and write them off as "business expenses"?

Racism does cause people to say and do stupid things.

Obviously, I was speaking of violent crimes like homicide.

The fact that you're offended by reality does not change it.

Nickyjo · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
White people commit crimes at a much lower rate than blacks, so places inhabited mainly by white people have lower homicide rates. It really isn't complicated.

Why do you think white people commit crimes at lower rates than blacks?

Somerville · May 18, 2019

AlbqOwl said:
The states you mention are largely ethnically homogeneous without large groups of people that are distinctly different than the prevailing culture. And the prevailing culture is not militantly minded or oriented, and what groups exist that do not share the prevailing culture are not predisposed to violence.

I haven't looked up the stats, but I would lay odds that churches are an integral part of those cultures and you will find the traditional two-parent family to be the norm rather than the exception.

"integral part" of the states' cultures? That depends upon a few items but the New England states all have a lower percentage of their populations calling itself Christian than the national average of 70%.

Religious Landscape Study

Somerville · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
Obviously, I was speaking of violent crimes like homicide.

The fact that you're offended by reality does not change it.

"Obviously"?? Oh please, are your goalposts on their own trailer or do you require assistance when you move them?

Why don't we compare those of similar income status and not just whether their skin colour is European or African or Middle Eastern or Far Eastern in shade?

jet57 · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Being curious after reading another thread attacking NYC for strict gun-control laws, I found the CDC's page on Homicide Mortality by State. As soon as I saw the map, there was one thing that popped out - there are two groups of states with low homicide rates. One group is New England, the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. The other group is made up of Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota and Minnesota.

Why are these states so dissimilar in their laws, urbanisation and population demographics, yet they have similar low homicide rates?

Hopefully, this question will kick off a reasonable discussion because it shows us that there is something other than gun control laws, whether pro-gun or anti-gun, that creates safer social environments.

I think it has to do with population rates and demographics. The red states have a lot more poverty and drug abuse, when mixed with guns leads to higher rates and New England has a much quieter population, gun laws or no, demographics make up a lot of it.

AlbqOwl · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
"integral part" of the states' cultures? That depends upon a few items but the New England states all have a lower percentage of their populations calling itself Christian than the national average of 70%.

Religious Landscape Study

Nevertheless, I would bet a very nice steak dinner that no New England state is not still majority Christian. And look at photos of any New England town and it is very likely that old fashioned church steeples are part of that landscape.

AmNat · May 18, 2019

Nickyjo said:
Why do you think white people commit crimes at lower rates than blacks?

I believe it because the FBI says so.

As for the reason, there are many possible theories. What is certain is that race correlates to violent criminality better than poverty or any other known metric, and this holds up everywhere in the world.

AmNat · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
"Obviously"?? Oh please, are your goalposts on their own trailer or do you require assistance when you move them?

Why don't we compare those of similar income status and not just whether their skin colour is European or African or Middle Eastern or Far Eastern in shade?

Violent crimes were the stated subject of the thread.

West Virginia is poorer than Arkansas, yet has lower violent crime rates. There are many such examples.

Somerville · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
Violent crimes were the stated subject of the thread.

West Virginia is poorer than Arkansas, yet has lower violent crime rates. There are many such examples.

Firearm death rates in West Virginia, including suicide and accidents, is 18.6/100,000. The total US rate is 12.0/100,000. Arkansas' numbers are 20.3/100,000

Race demographics: Arkansas is 15.4% Black, West Virginia is 3.56% Black. Hmmm, one would think West Virginia's death rate would be closer to 5% if the number of Black Americans was a valid way to guesstimate crime rates.

Per capita income: Arkansas - $22,883, West Virginia - $22,714

Nickyjo · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
I believe it because the FBI says so.

As for the reason, there are many possible theories. What is certain is that race correlates to violent criminality better than poverty or any other known metric, and this holds up everywhere in the world.

Check your history. "If it weren't for Germans and the Irish, a policeman's job would be a sinecure." So wrote a NY newspaper more than a century ago. Why do you think they call them "Paddy wagons?" And is Notre Dame home of the "Non-violent Irish"? But really, Germans? (Well, there was that WWII thing.) And of course, my people, the Sicilians, have never been connected to violent criminality.

Try another theory. Trump's lies about black crime have already been debunked by the FBI.

AlbqOwl · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Firearm death rates in West Virginia, including suicide and accidents, is 18.6/100,000. The total US rate is 12.0/100,000. Arkansas' numbers are 20.3/100,000

Race demographics: Arkansas is 15.4% Black, West Virginia is 3.56% Black. Hmmm, one would think West Virginia's death rate would be closer to 5% if the number of Black Americans was a valid way to guesstimate crime rates.

Per capita income: Arkansas - $22,883, West Virginia - $22,714

But in crime overall, West Virginia ranks No. 15 in lowest crime rate. Rhode Island is No. 16. Arkansas is in the top tier at #44.
U.S. Crime Index State Rank

AmNat · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Firearm death rates in West Virginia, including suicide and accidents

Thank you for demonstrating that you aren't actually interested in an honest conversation.

TheParser · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Hopefully, this question will kick off a reasonable discussion because it shows us that there is something other than gun control laws, whether pro-gun or anti-gun, that creates safer social environments.

Everyone knows the "something." But it is simply too painful for some people to acknowledge it. So they resort to blaming "poverty," which is a slap in the face to all the poor people who do NOT engage in senseless violence that destroys so many innocent people's lives every day in this country. During the Great Depression, did the poor men lining up on the street for a handout of food go around robbing people, beating up people, killing people?

calamity · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
White people commit crimes at a much lower rate than blacks, so places inhabited mainly by white people have lower homicide rates. It really isn't complicated.

One might want to explore why that is without resorting to simple white supremacist ideology though.
For example, why do whites commit so many more non-violent crimes like bank fraud, tax evasion, embezzlement, money laundering and securities fraud than blacks?

It could be that white men are ******s while black ones have bigger balls. Who knows? :shrug:

AmNat · May 18, 2019

calamity said:
One might want to explore why that is without resorting to simple white supremacist ideology though.
For example, why do whites commit so many more non-violent crimes like bank fraud, tax evasion, embezzlement, money laundering and securities fraud than blacks?

It could be that white men are ******s while black ones have bigger balls. Who knows? :shrug:

Whites (on average) have more opportunity to commit white collar crimes, since they're more likely to have white collar jobs.

Again, these things aren't nearly as complicated as some people make them out to be.

Somerville · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
Thank you for demonstrating that you aren't actually interested in an honest conversation.

Thank you for demonstrating that you are unable to provide a rational explanation for your racism.

apdst · May 18, 2019

Somerville said:
Obviously not "complicated" for those unable to see past their personal biases but for those who care to think about the problems, crime rates and possible solutions, even partial ones, are incredibly complex.

Why is it only "white people" who steal large sums of money from the gullible and many times escape prosecution? Why are some 'Christian' preachers raking in millions from their low-income congregations? Why did Wayne LaPierre spend a couple hundred thousand in a Beverly Hills boutique and write them off as "business expenses"?

Racism does cause people to say and do stupid things.

How do you explain the fact that the states with the highest homocide rates (not necessarily gun homocide) are the blackest states in the country?

You want to have a conversation, let's have a conversation. That can't happen if you leave out factual information out of it.

Black folks who live in urban areas are least likely to own a gun than any other demographic.

Exploring the Rise of African-American Gun Ownership - BLAC Detroit Magazine

As long as the black community, especially those living in urban areas, are defenseless, they will be victims of violent crime.

calamity · May 18, 2019

AmNat said:
Whites (on average) have more opportunity to commit white collar crimes, since they're more likely to have white collar jobs.

Again, these things aren't nearly as complicated as some people make them out to be.

Why do whites have more opportunity than blacks in the good old, former slave holding, Jim Crow enforcing and still racially discriminating USA?

What's the difference?

Somerville

Neomalthusian

Somerville

AmNat

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

AlbqOwl

Somerville

AmNat

Nickyjo

Somerville

Somerville

jet57

AlbqOwl

AmNat

AmNat

Somerville

Nickyjo

AlbqOwl

AmNat

TheParser

calamity

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AmNat

Somerville

apdst

calamity

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