A thread for Democrats: how has the modern Republican cult situation affected your view of democracy

[Craig234]

Out theory of democracy, of politics, is that a free and rational populace should rule and decide issues, discussing and arguing to try to get to the right answers. We imagine founding fathers and federalist papers making cases to form a more perfect union.

Today's Republican politics have nearly nothing to do with that. They consist almost entirely of people who literally are cult members, who on a thousand issues, will take either directly or indirectly from broader dogma a thousand answers and talking points, which are false, to parrot, and not listen at all (other than be silent waiting to talk) or be able to rationally process any corrections.

This is in no way that 'rational democracy'. And the dialogue and views and policies are pushed on the population by narrow interest, and concentrated wealth and a mass media system that serves the powerful interests. Right-wing person says crazy thing, you correct them with facts and evidence, and they call you a name and repeat the lie. Not exactly founding father politics.

How does this situation effect your view of our assumptions about a political system based on rationality, when you virtually never see someone change their views based on the truth and argument and evidence, and it only comes down to the numbers of how many agree on something?

We say, 'we'll put up with it, ignore the problems, oppose any fundamental changes, because any other system is likely to be worse, and we don't know how to fix it, except for things like having more independent voices or less money in the politics, which we don't know how to get enacted.'

In a way, we're 'fiddling while Rome burns', going through the motions pretending rational politics still exist and still work, ignoring the evidence showing otherwise, not knowing what else to do. Bang out another thousand corrections to lies, see them do nothing except get some upvotes from people who already agree. Aren't we not fixing anything if we pretend 'rational politics' still work?

 

[nekrodev]

I think the biggest issue is that the Democrats have followed the Republicans too far to the right and not tried to actually push any real agenda to help the working people of our country. If the Democratic party looked more like Bernie Sanders, in terms of policy, the Republican party would have ceased to exist long ago.

 

[KevinKohler]

Get rid of the 2 party system, and watch freedom ring.

 

[Bullseye]

Out theory of democracy, of politics, is that a free and rational populace should rule and decide issues, discussing and arguing to try to get to the right answers. We imagine founding fathers and federalist papers making cases to form a more perfect union.

Today's Republican politics have nearly nothing to do with that. They consist almost entirely of people who literally are cult members, who on a thousand issues, will take either directly or indirectly from broader dogma a thousand answers and talking points, which are false, to parrot, and not listen at all (other than be silent waiting to talk) or be able to rationally process any corrections.

This is in no way that 'rational democracy'. And the dialogue and views and policies are pushed on the population by narrow interest, and concentrated wealth and a mass media system that serves the powerful interests. Right-wing person says crazy thing, you correct them with facts and evidence, and they call you a name and repeat the lie. Not exactly founding father politics.

How does this situation effect your view of our assumptions about a political system based on rationality, when you virtually never see someone change their views based on the truth and argument and evidence, and it only comes down to the numbers of how many agree on something?

We say, 'we'll put up with it, ignore the problems, oppose any fundamental changes, because any other system is likely to be worse, and we don't know how to fix it, except for things like having more independent voices or less money in the politics, which we don't know how to get enacted.'

In a way, we're 'fiddling while Rome burns', going through the motions pretending rational politics still exist and still work, ignoring the evidence showing otherwise, not knowing what else to do. Bang out another thousand corrections to lies, see them do nothing except get some upvotes from people who already agree. Aren't we not fixing anything if we pretend 'rational politics' still work?

No irony in a progressive talking about cults. Progressivism is the paragon of cultishness. :cool;

Same for "rational" Never belongs in the same sentence as "progressive" unless linked by a negative.

 

[Grandpappy]

I’m a former Democrat. I even gave $10 to Bernie in 2016. My advice to progressives? Make policy based on reality, not rainbows and unicorns.

 

[Craig234]

Get rid of the 2 party system, and watch freedom ring.

Actually, I think that would do nothing at all to help. In fact, we already have much of the Republican base (wrongly) think they are some sort of mavericks/independents/apolitical/outsiders/whatever who take great pride in thinking they're 'against the establishment', voting for people like trump and Cruz. One minute George W. Bush is 'their guy' against the Democrat, the next minute he's 'establishment' and they disavow him to vote for trump.

 

[Craig234]

I think the biggest issue is that the Democrats have followed the Republicans too far to the right and not tried to actually push any real agenda to help the working people of our country. If the Democratic party looked more like Bernie Sanders, in terms of policy, the Republican party would have ceased to exist long ago.

You would think so. Yet, the country has drifted from the FDR model since FDR - replacing Wallace with Truman though it was party bosses who did that, electing Republicans in the 50's, picking JFK who ran as a more conservative Democrat (though in important ways he wasn't), on to the Reagan revolution and centrist Democrats, rejecting progressive candidates for 75 years. Stuff to think about - yet Bernie CAN sell it.

 

[nekrodev]

You would think so. Yet, the country has drifted from the FDR model since FDR - replacing Wallace with Truman though it was party bosses who did that, electing Republicans in the 50's, picking JFK who ran as a more conservative Democrat (though in important ways he wasn't), on to the Reagan revolution and centrist Democrats, rejecting progressive candidates for 75 years. Stuff to think about - yet Bernie CAN sell it.

After FDR, the entirety of our government basically went on a mission to destroy leftist ideals anywhere we found them - from threatening and detaining American citizens like MLK Jr and Eugene Debbs, to literally overthrowing governments because they wanted to nationalize their own oil to provide more for their own citizens.

COINTELPRO - Wikipedia

The program, or something eerily similar, continued to operate well into the 90s, despite supposedly having been terminated, and seems to be ongoing even now.

 

[Cardinal]

Some things I've learned or evolved on regarding democracy as a result of what's been happening for the last couple years:

1) I value democracy much more than I used to because I learned just how fragile it is. I learned that what has been keeping us on a mostly democratic course has more to do with our leaders actually believing that democracy is a good thing, and I learned that our institutions were always just a year away from crumbling under the weight of a thoroughly autocratic-minded President.
2) I learned that "American exceptionalism" is a myth and that we can lose the freedoms we have every bit as easily as every other democracy that succumbed to populism and crumbled.
3) Like a lot of people, I used to blame politicians for our problems. But I've come shift the majority of my blame to the voters for their laziness, their inconsistent principles and their desire to vote with their emotions over their own well being. It's fun and easy to beat up on politicians, but they came from the same pool of citizens who put them into office every election. And yet it's only fair to present the other side of that argument...
4) Politicians have created a political system that frequently serves the needs of the wealthiest and most powerful, and that has finally resulted in a situation in which populism can thrive. It's far from the only cause of populism, but it's definitely big contributing one. For example, it's intellectually impossible to not look upon the the rule that Congressmen can legally engage in insider stock trading and not conclude that the needs of those in power are hopelessly unaligned with the needs of the governed.

But the conclusion isn't that democracy is a problem, but that we need more democracy, more transparency, and more participation by voters.

 

[Craig234]

I’m a former Democrat. I even gave $10 to Bernie in 2016. My advice to progressives? Make policy based on reality, not rainbows and unicorns.

My advice to you: stop erroneously thinking the best and possible policies are rainbows and unicorns, which is right-wing propaganda cooked up to attack the good policies by well-funded plutocrats to lie to and fool the ignorant.

 

[Craig234]

After FDR, the entirety of our government basically went on a mission to destroy leftist ideals anywhere we found them - from threatening and detaining American citizens like MLK Jr and Eugene Debbs, to literally overthrowing governments because they wanted to nationalize their own oil to provide more for their own citizens.

COINTELPRO - Wikipedia

The program, or something eerily similar, continued to operate well into the 90s, despite supposedly having been terminated, and seems to be ongoing even now.

It goes back before FDR to the turn of the century - back then, the fearsome 'other' to use to justify power and 'security measure' were the "anarchists", though communists were also popular as of the Russian revolution in 1917. Eugene Debs ran for president from prison more than a decade before FDR, convicted for his socialist views under the Espionage Act passed in WWI to outlaw anyone criticizing our entering the war.

 

[Craig234]

3) Like a lot of people, I used to blame politicians for our problems. But I've come shift the majority of my blame to the voters for their laziness, their inconsistent principles and their desire to vote with their emotions over their own well being. It's fun and easy to beat up on politicians, but they came from the same pool of citizens who put them into office every election. And yet it's only fair to present the other side of that argument...
4) Politicians have created a political system that frequently serves the needs of the wealthiest and most powerful...

Can I offer you something to think about.

This is a fairly common reaction, frustration with the voters, but ultimately it's 'wrong' Not wrong about the voters, but wrong about their being the problem. They are what they are and are not going to change a lot.

Rather, the problem is our allowing the powerful to get too powerful and have free reign to dominate our politics, to 'herd the cattle' so to speak. Much like Hitler 'herded the cattle' of a generally 'good' German people into a horrific machine.

A bunch of Americans who have flaws and decent leaders can work just fine. Those same Americans under our current system have 40%+ approval for trump and the plutocrat Republicans. What's the 'solution' - not allowing the powerful things like unlimited money in politics and legalized corruption, or making the voters greatly improved? The latter is likely just not an option.

 

[Craig234]

I’m a former Democrat. I even gave $10 to Bernie in 2016. My advice to progressives? Make policy based on reality, not rainbows and unicorns.

Why was Bernie your choice in 2016? Was it simply his being more of an 'outsider', being 'not Hillary', like trump? Or did you actually support his policies?

 

[Grandpappy]

My advice to you: stop erroneously thinking the best and possible policies are rainbows and unicorns, which is right-wing propaganda cooked up to attack the good policies by well-funded plutocrats to lie to and fool the ignorant.

Want some examples? Open borders. Free college. Free health care. Student loan forgiveness. It just not realistic, and the American public knows it. Think outside the box, man.

 

[Craig234]

Want some examples? Open borders.

Not the policy.

Free college.

A very good policy, both beneficial and easily possible.

Free health care.

Very beneficial and very doable. We'd be moving to a system that costs half to two third the current system. You think we can't afford to spend less?

Student loan forgiveness. It just not realistic, and the American public knows it. Think outside the box, man.

Wow, what to do when I've already given the irony of the day award. It's extremely realistic. It's clear you are not at all informed about the policies, just reacting with knee-jerk ignorance, and irony.

 

[Grandpappy]

Why was Bernie your choice in 2016? Was it simply his being more of an 'outsider', being 'not Hillary', like trump? Or did you actually support his policies?

Because I got sucked in by the whole "This land is Your Land" feel good Bernie thing. I knew the establishment on both sides was wrong.
Unfortunately, I failed to see the reality. Socialism is a dead end.

 

[Grandpappy]

Not the policy.



A very good policy, both beneficial and easily possible.



Very beneficial and very doable. We'd be moving to a system that costs half to two third the current system. You think we can't afford to spend less?



Wow, what to do when I've already given the irony of the day award. It's extremely realistic. It's clear you are not at all informed about the policies, just reacting with knee-jerk ignorance, and irony.

Craig, my only question is who's paying for all of it?

 

[Bullseye]

My advice to you: stop erroneously thinking the best and possible policies are rainbows and unicorns, which is right-wing propaganda cooked up to attack the good policies by well-funded plutocrats to lie to and fool the ignorant.

With all due respect, the rainbow and unicorn promises seem to emanate more from the Prog world. I wasn't a conservative that came up with the Green New Deal, was it. The prog mindset seems to come from the conceit of "if they'd only give us the power, we could make this such a wonder world - a workers' utopia".

 

[Mycroft]

Out theory of democracy, of politics, is that a free and rational populace should rule and decide issues, discussing and arguing to try to get to the right answers. We imagine founding fathers and federalist papers making cases to form a more perfect union.

Today's Republican politics have nearly nothing to do with that. They consist almost entirely of people who literally are cult members, who on a thousand issues, will take either directly or indirectly from broader dogma a thousand answers and talking points, which are false, to parrot, and not listen at all (other than be silent waiting to talk) or be able to rationally process any corrections.

This is in no way that 'rational democracy'. And the dialogue and views and policies are pushed on the population by narrow interest, and concentrated wealth and a mass media system that serves the powerful interests. Right-wing person says crazy thing, you correct them with facts and evidence, and they call you a name and repeat the lie. Not exactly founding father politics.

How does this situation effect your view of our assumptions about a political system based on rationality, when you virtually never see someone change their views based on the truth and argument and evidence, and it only comes down to the numbers of how many agree on something?

We say, 'we'll put up with it, ignore the problems, oppose any fundamental changes, because any other system is likely to be worse, and we don't know how to fix it, except for things like having more independent voices or less money in the politics, which we don't know how to get enacted.'

In a way, we're 'fiddling while Rome burns', going through the motions pretending rational politics still exist and still work, ignoring the evidence showing otherwise, not knowing what else to do. Bang out another thousand corrections to lies, see them do nothing except get some upvotes from people who already agree. Aren't we not fixing anything if we pretend 'rational politics' still work?

As long as the Dems have members who think and speak like you, there'll be no hope for your Party.

 

[Craig234]

Because I got sucked in by the whole "This land is Your Land" fell good Bernie thing. I knew the establishment on both sides was wrong.
Unfortunately, I failed to see the reality. Socialism is a dead end.

In other words, yes, simply his being more of an 'outsider', being 'not Hillary', like trump.

And it suggests you really base your views not rationally but emotionally - just as you are doing in opposing the policies. Unfortunately, that was the answer that suggests you are not likely to understand the policies. The very fact you refer to Bernie's policies as 'rainbows' and 'socialism' shows you don't understand much about him.

 

[CriticalThought]

I think we are seeing an acceleration of a process inherent to representative forms of government that has always existed. I am more worried about the swing back than what we currently face. The right wing is teeing up a nice ball for the genuine Socialists by allowing the consolidation of power in the executive branch. If district courts lose the power to initiate nationwide injunctions, then the next leftist to sit in the Oval office will have virtually unchecked power.

 

[Casper]

Out theory of democracy, of politics, is that a free and rational populace should rule and decide issues, discussing and arguing to try to get to the right answers. We imagine founding fathers and federalist papers making cases to form a more perfect union.

Today's Republican politics have nearly nothing to do with that. They consist almost entirely of people who literally are cult members, who on a thousand issues, will take either directly or indirectly from broader dogma a thousand answers and talking points, which are false, to parrot, and not listen at all (other than be silent waiting to talk) or be able to rationally process any corrections.

This is in no way that 'rational democracy'. And the dialogue and views and policies are pushed on the population by narrow interest, and concentrated wealth and a mass media system that serves the powerful interests. Right-wing person says crazy thing, you correct them with facts and evidence, and they call you a name and repeat the lie. Not exactly founding father politics.

How does this situation effect your view of our assumptions about a political system based on rationality, when you virtually never see someone change their views based on the truth and argument and evidence, and it only comes down to the numbers of how many agree on something?

We say, 'we'll put up with it, ignore the problems, oppose any fundamental changes, because any other system is likely to be worse, and we don't know how to fix it, except for things like having more independent voices or less money in the politics, which we don't know how to get enacted.'

In a way, we're 'fiddling while Rome burns', going through the motions pretending rational politics still exist and still work, ignoring the evidence showing otherwise, not knowing what else to do. Bang out another thousand corrections to lies, see them do nothing except get some upvotes from people who already agree. Aren't we not fixing anything if we pretend 'rational politics' still work?

I still believe in Democracy, I do have serious doubts that either party truly believes in their Party ideals but the Republicans seem to have thrown the major ideals they held, or claimed to hold, in the toilet for their new Leader. I believe the GOP is headed for a break or purge, that will redefine who they are.

 

[Craig234]

Craig, my only question is who's paying for all of it?

You didn't acknowledge that your 'open borders' is false.

On free public college tuition: Program cost $50 billion; paid for by a Wall Street transaction tax estimated to raise $300 billion.

Universal healthcare: as I said, the system would cost half to two-thirds the current system. Spend $10,000 less on the current system and $5,000 more on the new system, can you afford to spend $5,000 less? I think you can.

Loan forgiveness: there are many ways to fund it; Elizabeth Warren has suggested a wealth tax on families with more than $50 million. Probably even better are Bernie's plans:

Bernie Sanders on Student Loans - His positions explained

 

[Bullseye]

Some things I've learned or evolved on regarding democracy as a result of what's been happening for the last couple years:

1) I value democracy much more than I used to because I learned just how fragile it is. I learned that what has been keeping us on a mostly democratic course has more to do with our leaders actually believing that democracy is a good thing, and I learned that our institutions were always just a year away from crumbling under the weight of a thoroughly autocratic-minded President.

LOL, take you pick; any of the 22 on the Dem side have an autocratic aura about them. They all preach more government power and intrusiveness.

2) I learned that "American exceptionalism" is a myth and that we can lose the freedoms we have every bit as easily as every other democracy that succumbed to populism and crumbled.

Don't wait - move to Scandinavia immediately. :lol:

3) Like a lot of people, I used to blame politicians for our problems. But I've come shift the majority of my blame to the voters for their laziness, their inconsistent principles and their desire to vote with their emotions over their own well being. It's fun and easy to beat up on politicians, but they came from the same pool of citizens who put them into office every election. And yet it's only fair to present the other side of that argument...

This would be laughable if it were not so smug and condescending. What exactly empowers you to dictate what exactly comprise the "best interests" of 300 million Americans? What special knowledge or gift supplies that power?

4) Politicians have created a political system that frequently serves the needs of the wealthiest and most powerful, and that has finally resulted in a situation in which populism can thrive. It's far from the only cause of populism, but it's definitely big contributing one. For example, it's intellectually impossible to not look upon the the rule that Congressmen can legally engage in insider stock trading and not conclude that the needs of those in power are hopelessly unaligned with the needs of the governed.

So you're upset that the needs and desires of the population are finely being addressed?

But the conclusion isn't that democracy is a problem, but that we need more democracy, more transparency, and more participation by voters.[/QUOTE]
#

 

[Cardinal]

LOL, take you pick; any of the 22 on the Dem side have an autocratic aura about them.

Wow, that's really deep.

I stopped reading there.