• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

On Republicans' Watch

So you're not going to answer the question. Got it. Thanks for playing, next! :2wave:

lol -- You asked a question I already addressed. In the post you quoted.

Perhaps you should look to that post before trying to play the 'you won't answer a simple question' card.
 
lol -- You asked a question I already addressed. In the post you quoted.

Perhaps you should look to that post before trying to play the 'you won't answer a simple question' card.

I know, I know, it's so difficult for a Republican to acknowledge the simple fact that the deficit usually goes up under Republican presidents and down under Democratic ones. :) Please don't let the facts get in your way! ;)
 
:lamo President Obama created more debt that every president before him combined! Budget deficits are just a numbers game. The number that matters in the national debt - and the Democrats 100% own the national debt.

That's bull****! Ronald Regan was the first president to take the National Debt exponential, before Regan our debt increased at a manageable linear rate. But once Reagan took it exponential it's stayed that way because money is created as debt at interest. The problem is that when the debt is created the interest IS NOT, so to keep things "somewhat" solvent more debt needs to be created just to pay the interest on the old debt in an ever spiraling upward chain reaction. Phys251 is correct, since Reagan, every Democratic President has decreased the rate of debt increase (yes even President Obama once he got past the economic crisis left to him by Bush II) and every Republican President has increased the rate of debt increase including tRump. This is easily researched if you care to.

It's certainly NOT a game, as debt spirals up the likely hood that the WORLD will remain solvent spirals down. We have arrived at the point that the private banksters in charge of the FED (and all Central Banks around the world) have enslaved the world in so much debt that it can never be repaid. And while doing that they have also debased all currency to the point that money is essentially worthless; look at the prime rate to see that truth. Money is worth less than the rate of inflation, our dollar is worth 3 cents of what it was worth in 1913 when the FED took over.

NO the Democrats don't own 100% of the National Debt, the private Banksters that own the FED do (debt they created from nothing; btw) and they are reaping untold wealth from it. Nothing funny about it. We are on the threshold of total financial collapse. The consequences of which cannot be imagined.

Essentially what all that means is the Private Banksters own the world, it's present production and all production ad infinitum.



IF we let them.
 
Last edited:
:lamo President Obama created more debt that every president before him combined! Budget deficits are just a numbers game. The number that matters in the national debt - and the Democrats 100% own the national debt.

So let's look at complete factual data, not Fox News misinformation.

Republicans use a sound bite that the federal debt doubled under Obama. In looking at the numbers that is close to being numerically correct but falls short of being 100%. However when you take into account the Great Recession, making W. Bush’s temporary tax cuts permanent, increased Social Security and Medicare spending as more Baby Boomers retire and become 65 years old and the Afghanistan and Iraq wars he inherited the story is quite different.

It is clear that the almost $1 trillion jump between fiscal 2008 and 2009 was due to the Great Recession. Tax receipts fell, expenditures rose and Obama and Congress passed the American Economy and Reinvestment Act to combat the recession.

What the numbers show is that the total debt increased the most at 184% over 8 years and at the fastest rate under President Reagan at almost 14% per year.


In fact, the three Republican presidents had the fastest growing debt on a yearly basis.

1. Reagan
Started Presidency: $965 billion
Ended Presidency: $2.74 trillion
Increased 184% or 13.9% per year

2. H.W. Bush
Started Presidency: $2.74 trillion
Ended Presidency: $4.23 trillion
Increased 54% or 11.5% per year (only in office for four years)

3. Clinton
Started Presidency: $4.23 trillion
Ended Presidency: $5.77 trillion
Increased 36% or 4.0% per year

4. W. Bush
Started Presidency: $5.77 trillion
Ended Presidency: $11.1 trillion
Increased 93% or 8.5% per year

5. Obama
Started Presidency: $11.1 trillion
Ended Presidency: $19.85 trillion
Increased 78% or 7.5% per year

President Obama’s debt actually grew at a slower annual rate than any of the Republican presidents even though there were events that negatively impacted the deficit that started before he became President. The Great Recession is probably the biggest of them as can be seen in the yearly deficit numbers. While all politicians use data to support their positions, the sound bite that the debt doubled under Obama is very misleading.

Don't Blame Obama For Doubling The Federal Deficit
 
Any time CNN's proof is unnamed sources we know in fact it is 100% a lie.


Incompetent response.

Sources are named, but even if they weren't, your response is still incompetent.
 
Last edited:
I know, I know, it's so difficult for a Republican to acknowledge the simple fact that the deficit usually goes up under Republican presidents and down under Democratic ones. :) Please don't let the facts get in your way! ;)

Um... I think you are having a conversation with yourself, or with someone else. So, take care!
 
lol -- nope. Not talking points. You'll have to look to the left for that.

'Cutting taxes' has had a minimal impact, and will help us in the long term. The issue is spending - driven primarily by Democrat demands. I'll admit that I'm disappointed at Republicans for not holding the line on that, but they didn't want another shutdown.

Good God, you really have been partaking in the Koolaid. You seriously cannot be blaming it on the other guys when your guys have been running the show for years, no thinking brain can believe such nonsense.
 
I predict someone will give Trump an idea, 'devalue the dollar', and like a fool he is, he won't be able to resist. After all, didn't Nixon do it? no one seemed to mind.

He did say he could just print more money, great idea eh...
 
The debt crisis is a problem, but one is more rightly concerned that none of the folks charged with abating such problems has a cogent, coherent and comprehensive plan for conquering it.
I think the worst part is they also have no desire to deal with the problem.
 
Um... I think you are having a conversation with yourself, or with someone else. So, take care!

And there it is. Boxed into a corner with no way to save your destroyed argument, you resort to childish insults. Like clockwork! ⏲️
 
And there it is. Boxed into a corner with no way to save your destroyed argument, you resort to childish insults. Like clockwork! ⏲️

lol -- ok. I think you missed the entire conversation. Good luck to you.
 
Tax cuts may decrease federal revenue in the short term, but often increase it in the long term as the economic growth increases the amount taxed. That's what happened here -- more revenue growth in 2018 (0.5%) than 2016 (0.3%). Even the pessimistic projections showed the tax cuts paying for themselves within a decade.

That's false. Tax cuts lower revenues, there is no tax Santa Clause, no free lunch. It still amazes me an entire political movement believes in fairy tales and magic as a key plank of their fiscal platform.

It's fine to want MORE TAX CUTS, but the downside of that is smaller government, less spending, OR more deficits and debt. There is no third alternative where we can GROW GOVERNMENT, increase spending, with lower tax rates. That's just a lie peddled by hacks so there's less pushback on tax cuts for the donor class, who paid good money for their tax cuts and will get them, or else!

And what the projections show is AFTER the tax cuts expire on individuals and we get bracket creep that effectively raises taxes on individuals, that in year 10 revenues are higher than under prior law, but that's if the tax cuts we're talking about EXPIRE and we go back to old law. The GOP proposed making the tax cuts "permanent" last year during the election, and those projections showed the deficits exploding in those out years, and getting bigger the longer we looked out.

And sure, I'd love to see some cuts in spending, but we could gain a lot if we hold back the increases. The small growth in the defense budget is nothing compared to increases by democrats.

Trump Tax-Cut Results: Federal Revenues Hit All-Time Highs | Investor's Business Daily

Well fine, the GOP had the fiscal reins for two years and increased spending, but by all means blame it on Democrats because why not? Republicans can't be blamed for what happened when they were in power and making the decisions - that's not fair!
 
Good. I want a US Sovereign debt crisis and I want one so bad no one will ever buy US bonds again.

Then maybe the democrats have no choice but to act responsible in the federal budget.

LOL. Maybe the GOP can cut taxes some more to get you that sovereign debt crisis you want so badly?

And the GOP had the fiscal controls for two years, do they not get some of the blame? What they did was increase spending and lower revenues, increasing the deficit. It's nice and all to give them credit for their talk, but at what point do you look at what the GOP actually DO and hold them accountable?
 
And yes, I said that Republicans gave in too much on spending.

And Bill Clinton didn't have a surplus during 'most' of his administration. It's arguable that that there was a surplus for two years. However, that only serves to highlight my previous statement -- Clinton had to sign the budget handed to him by a Republican congress.

The tax increases and the record revenue growth opposed by every Republican in Congress went a long way towards those balanced budgets.

Then Bush II got elected, cut taxes twice, started two wars and increased spending across the board. Weird how that reversed the surpluses and exploded the deficits, even during the biggest bubble in several generations...
 
That's false. Tax cuts lower revenues, there is no tax Santa Clause, no free lunch. It still amazes me an entire political movement believes in fairy tales and magic as a key plank of their fiscal platform.

It's fine to want MORE TAX CUTS, but the downside of that is smaller government, less spending, OR more deficits and debt. There is no third alternative where we can GROW GOVERNMENT, increase spending, with lower tax rates. That's just a lie peddled by hacks so there's less pushback on tax cuts for the donor class, who paid good money for their tax cuts and will get them, or else!

And what the projections show is AFTER the tax cuts expire on individuals and we get bracket creep that effectively raises taxes on individuals, that in year 10 revenues are higher than under prior law, but that's if the tax cuts we're talking about EXPIRE and we go back to old law. The GOP proposed making the tax cuts "permanent" last year during the election, and those projections showed the deficits exploding in those out years, and getting bigger the longer we looked out.



Well fine, the GOP had the fiscal reins for two years and increased spending, but by all means blame it on Democrats because why not? Republicans can't be blamed for what happened when they were in power and making the decisions - that's not fair!

No... it is true, and has proven to be the case. Lowering the taxes stimulates growth which overtakes the initial loss in revenue. There is, theoretically, a limit to this, however both the Bush and Trump cuts have led to increases in federal revenue.

And again, I don't disagree that Republicans should have held the line. Democrats have been much better at holding together as a group, and reflecting blame for government shutdowns. Republicans have caved.
 
No... it is true, and has proven to be the case. Lowering the taxes stimulates growth which overtakes the initial loss in revenue. There is, theoretically, a limit to this, however both the Bush and Trump cuts have led to increases in federal revenue.

I don't feel like arguing the "there is no free lunch in fiscal policy, and, no, you cannot grow government, increase spending, fund liberal spending priorities by also cutting tax rates" for the 100th time. The data do not support that myth.

And again, I don't disagree that Republicans should have held the line. Democrats have been much better at holding together as a group, and reflecting blame for government shutdowns. Republicans have caved.

They haven't caved, they just do not care about deficits or cutting spending. They care, a lot, about delivering on tax cuts, because that's what GOP donors pay for when they contribute the big money, and so they deliver every time on that promise, because it matters to them. Spending does not matter. Deficits don't matter.

"You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter. We won [the election. More tax cuts] is our due." Since Reagan that simple statement is all anyone needs to know about GOP fiscal policy. If you want to know what the GOP will do when they have the WH, refer to Cheney's maxim. It's foolproof.
 
No... it is true, and has proven to be the case. Lowering the taxes stimulates growth which overtakes the initial loss in revenue. There is, theoretically, a limit to this, however both the Bush and Trump cuts have led to increases in federal revenue.

And again, I don't disagree that Republicans should have held the line. Democrats have been much better at holding together as a group, and reflecting blame for government shutdowns. Republicans have caved.

The dishonesty here is that unless we are in a Recession...revenues always increase...and Republicans always dishonestly credit their tax cuts with those increased revenues.

To be accurate the revenue increase would have to be large enough to cover debt incurred and it never does.

Tax cuts do NOT pay for themselves
 
I don't feel like arguing the "there is no free lunch in fiscal policy, and, no, you cannot grow government, increase spending, fund liberal spending priorities by also cutting tax rates" for the 100th time. The data do not support that myth.

Actually, there's quite a bit of support for this, and it's worked. Note that even Obama promoted tax cuts to stimulate growth.

They haven't caved, they just do not care about deficits or cutting spending. They care, a lot, about delivering on tax cuts, because that's what GOP donors pay for when they contribute the big money, and so they deliver every time on that promise, because it matters to them. Spending does not matter. Deficits don't matter.

"You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter. We won [the election. More tax cuts] is our due." Since Reagan that simple statement is all anyone needs to know about GOP fiscal policy. If you want to know what the GOP will do when they have the WH, refer to Cheney's maxim. It's foolproof.

Many Republicans, and certainly most conservatives, do care. As I said repeatedly, they should stand up for this more -- and could do better. But to paint Democrats as the party of fiscal responsibility is absolutely absurd.

And good to see you getting out that tired old talking point of an out of context quote.
 
The dishonesty here is that unless we are in a Recession...revenues always increase...and Republicans always dishonestly credit their tax cuts with those increased revenues.

To be accurate the revenue increase would have to be large enough to cover debt incurred and it never does.

Tax cuts do NOT pay for themselves

Actually they do cover the temporary loss of revenue in time, and have. Even according to early CBO projections, revenue was supposed to net out within a decade for the Trump cuts. Looks like they may do better than that.

As for revenue raising -- According to Democrats, revenue is supposed to be 'cut', to fall, to be reduced. Even according to you. But, it didn't.

2015 = $3.25T
2016 = $3.27T
2017 = $3.32T
2018 = $3.33T
2019 = $3.44T (projected)
2020 = $3.64T (projected)

So where did the tax cuts, which have resulted in an economic boom, result in a loss of revenue?
 
Actually, there's quite a bit of support for this, and it's worked. Note that even Obama promoted tax cuts to stimulate growth.

Actually, there's not any support from it by economists - any economist who's done an even half-assed actual analysis. I've been reading papers about the impact of tax cuts on economic growth and tax revenues for two decades and have yet to see ANYONE produce any study indicating that tax cuts pay for themselves near our current levels. Zero. None.

You said the Bush II tax cuts paid for themselves. OK, how do you know that? What study shows that?

Here's a list of tables that will back up what I'm saying below if you'd like to download them to Excel and check my work:
Access Denied

[I don't know why when I posted that it says "Access Denied" but if you're interested and the link doesn't work, google "White House historical tables" and you'll find it.]

You can't just look at total revenues from 2001, and compare them to 2009, because that would show that individual income taxes DECLINED, in nominal terms, from Clinton to 2008 or 2009, the end of the Bush II years. OK, 2009 was during the Great Recession, so that's not fair, right? So then you picked 2006 or 2007, at the top of the bubble, and even then on an inflation adjusted basis, at the top of the biggest bubble in generations, individual income taxes FELL relative to the last year of the Clinton administration. So 6 or 7 years of population growth and a massive debt and housing bubble, 6 years of roaring, bubble fueled GDP growth, and individual income taxes were LOWER at the peak of the bubble than the last Clinton year. And of course the bubble-era revenues were unsustainable and would collapse when the bubble collapsed, which is what happened.

But to prove the point further, if you JUST account for inflation, take a mental guess in what year individual income taxes finally exceed collections in FY 2000? I won't make you guess, out loud, but it was......2014! If you use FY 2001 as Clinton's last year, we exceeded that in FY 2013!! So it just took 12-14 years to MATCH what we collected at the Clinton rates, and that included Obama letting the tax cuts expire on the upper levels. As a point of comparison, real GDP grew from about $13T in 2000 to about $17T in 2014 (a 31% increase in real GDP), and yet individual income taxes didn't budge.

So, no, there is just no real evidence tax cuts pay for themselves. Certainly Bush II offers you no evidence if you simply adjust for the time value of money, which is Step ONE in any actual analysis. Step 2 could be to adjust for population growth - that would make the comparison worse. Step 3 might be adjusting for the "baseline" economic growth that would have happened with or without the Bush II tax cuts. Step 4 would be to somehow isolate the stimulus from deficit spending (Bush blew up deficits in those early years) versus that provided by lower individual income tax rates. Other factors to account for might be the world economy, monetary policy including interest rates, and other non-tax changes in regulations, technological renovations, productivity, and more. Almost all those adjustments would make the Bush II era tax cuts look FAR WORSE than the initial round of adjusting for inflation. But we don't have to do anything except step ONE, which is simply adjust the nominal figures to reflect inflation and the time value of money to show very conclusively that the two rounds of Bush II tax cuts LOWERED revenue.

Many Republicans, and certainly most conservatives, do care. As I said repeatedly, they should stand up for this more -- and could do better. But to paint Democrats as the party of fiscal responsibility is absolutely absurd.

And good to see you getting out that tired old talking point of an out of context quote.

I'm just accurately recounting the GOP history since Reagan. Call it "old...and out of context" if you want - what you can't do is refute it using the evidence. If you used the Cheney maxim to predict the last two years under Trump and the GOP Congress, you got it exactly right on fiscal policy - nailed it!
 
Actually they do cover the temporary loss of revenue in time, and have. Even according to early CBO projections, revenue was supposed to net out within a decade for the Trump cuts. Looks like they may do better than that.

I think I've already corrected this statement once, if not by you then someone else... That "netting out within a decade" isn't really saying that. The CBO projects, using traditional or dynamic scoring, that the TCJA will increase debt by $1.1T (dynamic scoring) or $1.5T (traditional) over the first decade. So the economic boost offsets about $400B of the $1.5T, or about 27%. For the tax cuts to "pay for themselves," or increase revenue that % would need to be > 100%. It's not close....

In year 10, revenue is projected to be higher for year 10 (after 9 years of deficits....) than old law, because the tax cuts EXPIRE completely for individuals around year 8, and the corporate tax cuts are projected to add a little bit to GDP over the decade. Here's a picture:

Source: What are dynamic scoring and dynamic analysis? | Tax Policy Center

3.4.3.png


As for revenue raising -- According to Democrats, revenue is supposed to be 'cut', to fall, to be reduced. Even according to you. But, it didn't.

2015 = $3.25T
2016 = $3.27T
2017 = $3.32T
2018 = $3.33T
2019 = $3.44T (projected)
2020 = $3.64T (projected)

So where did the tax cuts, which have resulted in an economic boom, result in a loss of revenue?

See my previous discussion. That simply doesn't show what you think it shows.
 
Last edited:
The dishonesty here is that unless we are in a Recession...revenues always increase...and Republicans always dishonestly credit their tax cuts with those increased revenues.

To be accurate the revenue increase would have to be large enough to cover debt incurred and it never does.

Tax cuts do NOT pay for themselves

Of course, that's just about as notable as saying 2+2=4 and not 11.

This is ultimately why I left the GOP, because fiscal policy for a major party in the United States, an incredibly advanced economy with world class institutions of higher learning, world class economists, world class data collection efforts, is based on a LIE, a FALSEHOOD, belief in MAGIC, FAIRY TALES. It was just too much to defend, and I couldn't vote for a party that spread such obvious falsehoods to sell tax cuts. Those in the GOP power structure - Congress, executive branch officials, WH economists, etc - who want to know the truth KNOW they are lying, and they don't care, and won't correct the lies spread by others.
 
Back
Top Bottom