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DISCUSSION: What can we do to stop attacks at places of worship?

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Crusader13

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In the last month alone, a Muslim mosque, Jewish synagogue, and Christian church have all been targets of horrific violence. If we look back even further, we get the same trend.

This is not going to stop.

No matter how much we want it to. No matter how much we convince ourselves of who's fault it is. Changing the president won't help - all of the perpetrators have cited motives that have nothing to do with Trump or even left vs right politics. In fact they've explicitly mentioned they hate Trump, Republicans, Democrats, Socialists etc.

Banning assault rifles won't help - in many cases the guns used in such attacks are purchased illegally, or guns aren't used at all. Explosives, rent-a-cars, knifes, and simple pistols can and have done just as much damage. Banning guns only makes them a more profitable venture for criminals who don't care about breaking the law anyway.

Banning white supremacists from mainstream platforms or social spaces won't help - the perpetrators have explicitly cited alienation of their ideas as reasons for carrying out their attack. Without a voice or fair avenue of discourse, they revert to carrying out violence to get heard. Banning them from Facebook only demotes them to sites like 8chan, where moderate people with unpopular views become exposed to even worse and dangerous views, which acts as a form of radicalization and motivation to carry out violence.

I don't know what can be done. I've heard school security systems are currently a big thing in America - things like safety locks, metal detectors, training videos to follow in case a shooting occurs etc. I expect this to become the norm for places of worship too, unfortunately. We've gotten to the point where we have no other choice.

The only thing I can think of is a subsidized system of armed patrol for places of worship, provided by the government. We can't put armed guards at every possible place of worship, but we can put them at some, with clear messages set out that more and more places are being guarded and patrolled. This could deter potential shooters in some tiny way at least. Think of it like random drug and alcohol testing on the road - you don't know where, you don't know when. Just knowing it's there could act as a deterrent, or at least a small barrier for the people who plan these attacks.

I also suspect the congregations to do their own part. Safety gates, cameras, and bullet-proof glass would be no-brainers. The Christchurch shooter walked straight up to a packed mosque dressed in army gear and 2 rifles hanging by his side with no resistance whatsoever. Not even a damn gate that he had to open. Most places of worship have traditionally had an open-door policy where anyone can just walk in off the street. Obviously, this is no longer feasible.

Most places of worship have very regular community attendance to the point where it's quite easy for an outsider to be spotted, even more so when they are clearly not dressed for the part or following the typical rituals adhered to by religious followers.

I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts on this. This is clearly not going to stop - but we can be doing a lot more to prevent it. Shedding tears when we let yet another one occur needs to become yesterday's mistake and tomorrow's lesson to do better.
 
DISCUSSION: What can we do to stop attacks at places of worship?
Click to expand...

Why don't we go with the age-old individualist approach conservatives so ardently extol? I think that's a fitting thing to do as part of the trade-off GOP-ers have long bid be foisted upon society's least fortunate member: let them fend for themselves. After all, there's no faith-based belief system organization in the US that isn't large and wealthy enough to provide for its adherents' personal physical security in their respective houses of worship.
-- 35 Largest Christian Denominations in the US
-- The 10 Richest Religions in the World
And, then there's the matter of maintaining the separation of church from state.....

Are you, OP-er, among the crowd that thinks "more guns in civilian hands = more security for civilians?" If so, you already have your answer: arm congregants, or at least the preachers and other officiants (alter boys, ushers, doormen, choir members, etc.), in churches.
 
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Xelor said:
Why don't we go with the age-old individualist approach conservatives so ardently extol? I think that's a fitting thing to do as part of the trade-off GOP-ers have long bid be foisted upon society's least fortunate member: let them fend for themselves. After all, there's no faith-based belief system organization in the US that isn't large and wealthy enough to provide for its adherents' personal physical security in their respective houses of worship.
-- 35 Largest Christian Denominations in the US
-- The 10 Richest Religions in the World
And, then there's the matter of maintaining the separation of church from state.....

Are you, OP-er, among the crowd that thinks "more guns in civilian hands = more security for civilians?" If so, you already have your answer: arm congregants, or at least the preachers and other officiants (alter boys, ushers, doormen, choir members, etc.), in churches.
Click to expand...

Really? Two lines into the second post of this thread and you've already tried to use innocent blood to paint your agenda.

To equate the GOP believing that people should take control of their own lives with the notion that innocent victims don't deserve protection is a detestable way to make your point. As is the theory of seperaration of church and state. Just sickening.

Regarding more guns in civilian hands - this isn't a conversation we need to have because the Constitution already had it. It's legal to own guns for the sake of protection and if a citizen wants to exercise that right they will, even if the government tells them not to. Using guns for self defense has always been illegal in New Zealand (yes, really), but that didn't stop one of the mosque-goers from using one to scare the shooter away. If a gun was in your reach while your family or community was getting killed you wouldn't think twice about picking it up so don't play this more nonsensical than it has to be.
 
More guns in circulation, more opportunity for their misuse. Not difficult to figure. Anyhow if Americans want to behave like third world banana republics and continue to kill each other in ever increasing numbers, go for it, nobody is stopping you. Oh, and it isn't just places of worship that have to contend with lunatics blasting away. They are a tiny minority.
 
snakestretcher said:
More guns in circulation, more opportunity for their misuse. Not difficult to figure. Anyhow if Americans want to behave like third world banana republics and continue to kill each other in ever increasing numbers, go for it, nobody is stopping you. Oh, and it isn't just places of worship that have to contend with lunatics blasting away. They are a tiny minority.
Click to expand...



Year* Murders Murder*Rate
1990* 23,440* 9.4*
1991* 24,700* 9.8*
1992* 23,760* 9.3*
1993* 24,530* 9.5*
1994* 23,330* 9.0*
1995* 21,610* 8.2*
1996* 19,650* 7.4*
1997* 18,208* 6.8*
1998* 16,914* 6.3*
1999* 15,522* 5.7*

Year* Murders Murder*Rate
2000* 15,586* 5.5*
2001* 16,037* 5.6*
2002* 16,229* 5.6*
2003* 16,528* 5.7*
2004* 16,148* 5.5*
2005* 16,740* 5.6*
2006* 17,030* 5.7*
2007* 16,929* 5.6*
2008* 16,442* 5.4*
2009* 15,399* 5.0*

Year* Murders Murder*Rate
2010 14,772 4.8
2011 14,661 4.7
2012 14,866 4.7
2013 14,319 4.5
2014 14,164 4.4
2015 15,883 4.9
2016 17,413 5.4
2017 17,284 5.3
 
Crusader13 said:
In the last month alone, a Muslim mosque, Jewish synagogue, and Christian church have all been targets of horrific violence. If we look back even further, we get the same trend.

This is not going to stop.

No matter how much we want it to. No matter how much we convince ourselves of who's fault it is. Changing the president won't help - all of the perpetrators have cited motives that have nothing to do with Trump or even left vs right politics. In fact they've explicitly mentioned they hate Trump, Republicans, Democrats, Socialists etc.

Banning assault rifles won't help - in many cases the guns used in such attacks are purchased illegally, or guns aren't used at all. Explosives, rent-a-cars, knifes, and simple pistols can and have done just as much damage. Banning guns only makes them a more profitable venture for criminals who don't care about breaking the law anyway.

Banning white supremacists from mainstream platforms or social spaces won't help - the perpetrators have explicitly cited alienation of their ideas as reasons for carrying out their attack. Without a voice or fair avenue of discourse, they revert to carrying out violence to get heard. Banning them from Facebook only demotes them to sites like 8chan, where moderate people with unpopular views become exposed to even worse and dangerous views, which acts as a form of radicalization and motivation to carry out violence.

I don't know what can be done. I've heard school security systems are currently a big thing in America - things like safety locks, metal detectors, training videos to follow in case a shooting occurs etc. I expect this to become the norm for places of worship too, unfortunately. We've gotten to the point where we have no other choice.

The only thing I can think of is a subsidized system of armed patrol for places of worship, provided by the government. We can't put armed guards at every possible place of worship, but we can put them at some, with clear messages set out that more and more places are being guarded and patrolled. This could deter potential shooters in some tiny way at least. Think of it like random drug and alcohol testing on the road - you don't know where, you don't know when. Just knowing it's there could act as a deterrent, or at least a small barrier for the people who plan these attacks.

I also suspect the congregations to do their own part. Safety gates, cameras, and bullet-proof glass would be no-brainers. The Christchurch shooter walked straight up to a packed mosque dressed in army gear and 2 rifles hanging by his side with no resistance whatsoever. Not even a damn gate that he had to open. Most places of worship have traditionally had an open-door policy where anyone can just walk in off the street. Obviously, this is no longer feasible.

Most places of worship have very regular community attendance to the point where it's quite easy for an outsider to be spotted, even more so when they are clearly not dressed for the part or following the typical rituals adhered to by religious followers.

I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts on this. This is clearly not going to stop - but we can be doing a lot more to prevent it. Shedding tears when we let yet another one occur needs to become yesterday's mistake and tomorrow's lesson to do better.
Click to expand...

People should know by now that making crime illegal will do nothing to stop violence. People should seek the Lord for protection and then just live with the knowledge that the wicked will do wickedly until then Lord returns to destroy His enemies from the face of the earth.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
Year* Murders Murder*Rate
1990* 23,440* 9.4*
1991* 24,700* 9.8*
1992* 23,760* 9.3*
1993* 24,530* 9.5*
1994* 23,330* 9.0*
1995* 21,610* 8.2*
1996* 19,650* 7.4*
1997* 18,208* 6.8*
1998* 16,914* 6.3*
1999* 15,522* 5.7*

Year* Murders Murder*Rate
2000* 15,586* 5.5*
2001* 16,037* 5.6*
2002* 16,229* 5.6*
2003* 16,528* 5.7*
2004* 16,148* 5.5*
2005* 16,740* 5.6*
2006* 17,030* 5.7*
2007* 16,929* 5.6*
2008* 16,442* 5.4*
2009* 15,399* 5.0*

Year* Murders Murder*Rate
2010 14,772 4.8
2011 14,661 4.7
2012 14,866 4.7
2013 14,319 4.5
2014 14,164 4.4
2015 15,883 4.9
2016 17,413 5.4
2017 17,284 5.3
Click to expand...

Wow, a massive 6000 fewer annual killings since 1991. That's real progress. Now read this: Gun deaths increasing after years of decline - CNN
 
marke said:
People should know by now that making crime illegal will do nothing to stop violence. People should seek the Lord for protection and then just live with the knowledge that the wicked will do wickedly until then Lord returns to destroy His enemies from the face of the earth.
Click to expand...

Yes, your 'Lord' has done so well protecting people and preventing them killing each other in the millions over the past 2019 years. I suggest you find another more plausible fantasy to believe in; like Harry Potter's wizards (the stories are better). There is no 'Lord', no gods, no demons, no 'miracles'. Grow up or just keep praying to empty air.
 
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snakestretcher said:
Who cares? The gun is the cause in either case. I make no distinction; dead is dead.
Click to expand...

Then your accept that your words are incorrect. A suicide is not someone killing another.
 
snakestretcher said:
More guns in circulation, more opportunity for their misuse. Not difficult to figure.
Click to expand...

Actually, it is. Do you think police officers or military personnel are capable of misusing their guns? Would you be opposed to taking theirs away too?

So you want the State, currently run by the evil GOP and Hitler 2.0 himself, to have control of all the guns in the country with no way of civilians to voice their concern or defend themselves?

No thanks.
 
Crusader13 said:
Actually, it is. Do you think police officers or military personnel are capable of misusing their guns? Would you be opposed to taking theirs away too?

So you want the State, currently run by the evil GOP and Hitler 2.0 himself, to have control of all the guns in the country with no way of civilians to voice their concern or defend themselves?

No thanks.
Click to expand...

FFS grow up.
 
snakestretcher said:
Yes, your 'Lord' has done so well protecting people and preventing them killing each other in the millions over the past 2019 years. I suggest you find another more plausible fantasy to believe in; like Harry Potter's wizards (the stories are better). There is no 'Lord', no gods, no demons, no 'miracles'. Grow up or just keep praying to empty air.
Click to expand...

Hope there's never a time in your life where chaos, tumult and mayhem leave you without an answer and seeking a higher power to help you out. You're burning your bridges.
 
Crusader13 said:
In the last month alone, a Muslim mosque, Jewish synagogue, and Christian church have all been targets of horrific violence. If we look back even further, we get the same trend.

This is not going to stop.

No matter how much we want it to. No matter how much we convince ourselves of who's fault it is. Changing the president won't help - all of the perpetrators have cited motives that have nothing to do with Trump or even left vs right politics. In fact they've explicitly mentioned they hate Trump, Republicans, Democrats, Socialists etc.

Banning assault rifles won't help - in many cases the guns used in such attacks are purchased illegally, or guns aren't used at all. Explosives, rent-a-cars, knifes, and simple pistols can and have done just as much damage. Banning guns only makes them a more profitable venture for criminals who don't care about breaking the law anyway.

Banning white supremacists from mainstream platforms or social spaces won't help - the perpetrators have explicitly cited alienation of their ideas as reasons for carrying out their attack. Without a voice or fair avenue of discourse, they revert to carrying out violence to get heard. Banning them from Facebook only demotes them to sites like 8chan, where moderate people with unpopular views become exposed to even worse and dangerous views, which acts as a form of radicalization and motivation to carry out violence.

I don't know what can be done. I've heard school security systems are currently a big thing in America - things like safety locks, metal detectors, training videos to follow in case a shooting occurs etc. I expect this to become the norm for places of worship too, unfortunately. We've gotten to the point where we have no other choice.

The only thing I can think of is a subsidized system of armed patrol for places of worship, provided by the government. We can't put armed guards at every possible place of worship, but we can put them at some, with clear messages set out that more and more places are being guarded and patrolled. This could deter potential shooters in some tiny way at least. Think of it like random drug and alcohol testing on the road - you don't know where, you don't know when. Just knowing it's there could act as a deterrent, or at least a small barrier for the people who plan these attacks.

I also suspect the congregations to do their own part. Safety gates, cameras, and bullet-proof glass would be no-brainers. The Christchurch shooter walked straight up to a packed mosque dressed in army gear and 2 rifles hanging by his side with no resistance whatsoever. Not even a damn gate that he had to open. Most places of worship have traditionally had an open-door policy where anyone can just walk in off the street. Obviously, this is no longer feasible.

Most places of worship have very regular community attendance to the point where it's quite easy for an outsider to be spotted, even more so when they are clearly not dressed for the part or following the typical rituals adhered to by religious followers.

I'd be interested in hearing other thoughts on this. This is clearly not going to stop - but we can be doing a lot more to prevent it. Shedding tears when we let yet another one occur needs to become yesterday's mistake and tomorrow's lesson to do better.
Click to expand...

The concept of providing public security guards to private and tax exempt institutions makes no sense. We do not provide dedicated public security to other private and taxed institutions - why do so for "some" places of worship?
 
This is going to sound harsh, but I have no choice.

So long as humanity decides to continue with this utter nonsense of competition on who's God is the right one, there will be continued reason by those in the extreme of all system of belief ideologies to attack and take the lives of others.

History has proven this conclusively and beyond all debate.

You cannot "stop attacks on places of worship" with less of <insert something here> or more of <insert something here> and the fundamental reason for the attack in the first place is ideological supported hatred of someone else because of what they believe or not believe. Restrictions or bans on guns, people, and social media and/or additional security of whatever means does nothing for someone who has the intention to take life often in a condition where they are willing to exchange their own life to end someone else's life.

This guy, Jiddu Krishnamurti, got in all kinds of trouble for saying...

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."

... yet we fail time and time again to consider that he was more right than wrong.

Talk about guns, security, "great great walls," social media, this church or that mosque or some synagogue, who is President, who says what on Twitter or Facebook, or whatever else all you would like.

Attacks on places of worship are happening because every religion, intentionally or not, are inherently about separation, control, and competition in a space based on who's God is the valid and righteous one. And that thinking alone breeds more reason to kill than any other reason across all of human history.

The attacks are going to continue, probably get worse, because the only way for religion to ever win is be the only one left standing.
 
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OrphanSlug said:
This is going to sound harsh, but I have no choice.

So long as humanity decides to continue with this utter nonsense of competition on who's God is the right one, there will be continued reason by those in the extreme of all system of belief ideologies to attack and take the lives of others.

History has proven this conclusively and beyond all debate.

You cannot "stop attacks on places of worship" with less of <insert something here> or more of <insert something here> and the fundamental reason for the attack in the first place is ideological supported hatred of someone else because of what they believe or not believe. Restrictions or bans on guns, people, and social media and/or additional security of whatever means does nothing for someone who has the intention to take life often in a condition where they are willing to exchange their own life to end someone else's life.

This guy, Jiddu Krishnamurti, got in all kinds of trouble for saying...

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."

... yet we fail time and time again to consider that he was more right than wrong.

Talk about guns, security, "great great walls," social media, this church or that mosque or some synagogue, who is President, who says what on Twitter or Facebook, or whatever else all you would like.

Attacks on places of worship are happening because every religion, intentionally or not, are inherently about separation, control, and competition in a space based on who's God is the valid and righteous one. And that thinking alone breeds more reason to kill than any other reason across all of human history.

The attacks are going to continue, probably get worse, because the only way for religion to ever win is be the only one left standing.
Click to expand...

That Jiddu chap had the right idea. Religious fundamentalism is inherently dangerous whichever culture it stems from.
 
Nothing can be done.

We live in a unique nation.

And every day we become "uniquer."

It is the responsibility of every house of worship to have armed guards and to search anyone who is entering.

In another thread about the peaceful 1950s, some posters (including me) pointed out that crime was not considered a problem then.

Today, however, it IS a problem, so millions of Americans spend their hard-earned money installing home alarms and paying for private security companies to patrol their neighborhoods.

Houses of worship and schools simply have to adjust to today's brutal realities.
 
What can and should happen is that people need to recognize that securing their safety is a personal responsibility issue and stop allowing themselves to be soft targets. It is unrealistic to believe that cops can be everywhere and stop every crime. Its equally unrealistic to put security at every location and venue. Where appropriate...like stadiums and certain schools with histories of violence (NOT related to school shootings, because those are truly few and far between, no matter how desperately the idiot leftist anti gun movement would have you think its a day to day occurrence) then sure...they should provide security. But in MOST cases, the answer is for citizens to recognize that the lies they were sold for decades...the lay down and wait for your turn to die bull****...has to end. If you understand basics of defense, pretty much everything in your possession is a weapon.

You know what would have been better than those heroic kids stopping the potential mass shooting at the Colorado STEM HS? If those same kids that stopped the school shootings had beat the holy **** out of the perpetrators And IF THE 'AFTER' pictures were shown. Try that a few dozen times, and watch how rapidly some of those cowardly ****s contemplating a mass shooting lose the stomach for the action. Put a camera on Dylan Roof 24/7...let people watch his miserable pathetic ****ing existence. The next time some ****head charges into a mosque, he should get bumrushed by 30-40 loyal worshipers and they should proceed to beat the halal out of the perpetrator.

Will that STOP everything? No. I suspect bad people will eventually change tactics. and then we will adjust. But rather than acting like the sniveling ****s in the UK, what we WONT do is roll over on our backs and piss ourselves and sacrifice our rights.
 
OrphanSlug said:
This is going to sound harsh, but I have no choice.

So long as humanity decides to continue with this utter nonsense of competition on who's God is the right one, there will be continued reason by those in the extreme of all system of belief ideologies to attack and take the lives of others.
Click to expand...

You're delusional to think that religion is the only thing that makes people kill one another. I can't even begin to describe how wrong that is. War is much older than religion. Humans kill each other every day and most of the time it has nothing to do with which God is better. Put 2 kids in a room with one toy and see how long it takes for them to pull each other's hair out.

The Christchurch shooter was not religious, nor was he driven by or loyal to any religious cause. The Civil War had nothing to do with religion. Nazism was not inspired by proving one God was better than the other - it was about proving which race or nationality was better than the other.

To single religion out as the root cause of violence is simplistic and just incorrect.


This guy, Jiddu Krishnamurti, got in all kinds of trouble for saying...

"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."
Click to expand...

Also incorrect. Nationalities, political sides, etc are where one idea starts and another one ends. And unfortunately, some ideas are better or worse than others. I'm proud to say that I'm Danish because everytime I say it, I'm reaffirming that I'm not North Korean, Nazi German, Communist Chinese, Saudi Arabian, Bruneise, and so on. All those nationalities suck because their ideas suck and are responsible for the death and oppression of millions of people. Mine is not.

So no, I won't be lump-categorized as a human being when an overwhelming portion of human beings are ****ty people. Separating each other is how we declare the start of one idea (freedom, democracy, liberty) from others (slavery, genocide, racism). Anything else would be problematic.

Attacks on places of worship are happening because every religion, intentionally or not, are inherently about separation, control, and competition in a space based on who's God is the valid and righteous one.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily true. The Chirstchurch shooter was not religious nor was he in any way motivated by pushing one God over another. He killed Muslims because he considered them contra to what his race and nationality stands for.

And that thinking alone breeds more reason to kill than any other reason across all of human history.
Click to expand...

Untrue. Socialism and the limited supply of food is responsible for more deaths throughout human history than religion.
 
Give God some guns.
 
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