Why Young People are Becoming Socialists in One Graph

jdog21 said:

Democrats are the biggest portrayer of keeping homes prices high.
If you want a cheap house just look at places that vote republican.

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And if those Republicans could actually GOVERN, those places would be conservative utopias, and not the eviscerated s***holes that they are in reality.

phattonez said:

And this isn't even looking at a constant population. The workforce is older and more experienced, and we have a lower percentage of people working.

If you want to guarantee a socialist revolution, make sure that no one can afford basic necessities.

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Kids in American public schools are taught to approve of socialist ideals and the Alinsky anarchists and communists inflame a socialist fever among the ignorant by stirring them to envy those who have more stuff than they do.

phattonez said:

Wrong.



Millennials delay marriage in order to form a more perfect union, poll suggests | Life and style | The Guardian

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I don't think your source proves the point.


I don't know anyone who has a universally accepted number of how rich you need to be to have a kid.


I'm not rich, but I can afford a child. I think we're really seeing the wounds from the divorce generation cropping up. many of my classmates have divorced parents who bone long term boy/girlfriends and never set a good example of what real marriage is and so they think they need to be a higher social class then their parents.

I do agree that these are reasons, but these aren't mutually exclusive.

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They're not exclusive, but I think the money is largely irrelevant.

Here's something that they never tell Americans: the poorest people in the world also don't have any debt, and they own their homes.

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I doubt any American would choose to live like a subsidence farmer in Bolivia who "has no debt" and "owns his own home" First off owning your own home is perfectly possible if you pay your mortgage early which is possible with financial discipline. While debt is extremely common it's usually completely unnecessary. My car just died yesterday and I'm going to look at another one. I have a lot of cash saved up so I'm just going to buy another 3000 dollar car. many people take out loans for cars costing over 10 grand when they can't cover a 600 dollar emergency. It's true debt is aggressively marketed, but it's always a choice.

Socialism is materialistic greed. I fully agree, and I want to prevent it. However, you have to realize that usury concentrates wealth in the hands of those who already have wealth, and as wealth is transferred more and more to capital, asset prices inflate as wages are left in the dust. Avarice is a mortal sin in Christianity, and a good Christian society would not tolerate it.

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A good Christian society does not exist to forcibly expropriate someone's wealth. Avarice is punished by God, it's not up to secular authorities. There is nothing inherently evil with concentrated wealth.

If we go back to the Bolivian farmer, he's dirt poor compared to you, are you guilty of Avarice? obviously there is concentrated wealth in the US that we all share in, so if the Bolivian farmer is condemning you as the 1% are you going to give away all your money?

marke said:

Kids in American public schools are taught to approve of socialist ideals and the Alinsky anarchists and communists inflame a socialist fever among the ignorant by stirring them to envy those who have more stuff than they do.

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Sure, but do you really think that when housing is out of reach for most of our young people that they'll be just fine with that?

EMNofSeattle said:

I don't think your source proves the point.

I don't know anyone who has a universally accepted number of how rich you need to be to have a kid.

I'm not rich, but I can afford a child. I think we're really seeing the wounds from the divorce generation cropping up. many of my classmates have divorced parents who bone long term boy/girlfriends and never set a good example of what real marriage is and so they think they need to be a higher social class then their parents.

They're not exclusive, but I think the money is largely irrelevant.

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These have had large effects. Like I said, these aren't mutually exclusive. I do know that when people have debt problems, they're going to delay having more children. It's why we always see fertility rates fall during recessions. It's certainly relevant, but I'd agree that it's not going to fix everything.

I doubt any American would choose to live like a subsidence farmer in Bolivia who "has no debt" and "owns his own home" First off owning your own home is perfectly possible if you pay your mortgage early which is possible with financial discipline.

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A typical graduate today makes $48k. You know what that gets you? Assuming you have $10k for a downpayment and $0 debt (lol), you can afford a house worth $208k. Add student loan debt, and it becomes IMPOSSIBLE.

While debt is extremely common it's usually completely unnecessary. My car just died yesterday and I'm going to look at another one. I have a lot of cash saved up so I'm just going to buy another 3000 dollar car. many people take out loans for cars costing over 10 grand when they can't cover a 600 dollar emergency. It's true debt is aggressively marketed, but it's always a choice.

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What are those people supposed to do? $10k is about as cheap as a car gets, and if you need a car to get to work, you don't have a choice.

A good Christian society does not exist to forcibly expropriate someone's wealth. Avarice is punished by God, it's not up to secular authorities.

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Murder is also punished by God. Should secular authorities not punish murder?

There is nothing inherently evil with concentrated wealth.

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When it's a massive amount it's avarice, and avarice is inherently evil.

If we go back to the Bolivian farmer, he's dirt poor compared to you, are you guilty of Avarice? obviously there is concentrated wealth in the US that we all share in, so if the Bolivian farmer is condemning you as the 1% are you going to give away all your money?

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If you have enough for your family to live on, then there is certainly an obligation to give to charity whatever you don't need. Let me quote the Catechism:

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:

2445 Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned, you have killed the righteous man; he does not resist you.238

2446 St. John Chrysostom vigorously recalls this: "Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life. The goods we possess are not ours, but theirs."239 "The demands of justice must be satisfied first of all; that which is already due in justice is not to be offered as a gift of charity":240

When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice.

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phattonez said:

These have had large effects. Like I said, these aren't mutually exclusive. I do know that when people have debt problems, they're going to delay having more children. It's why we always see fertility rates fall during recessions. It's certainly relevant, but I'd agree that it's not going to fix everything.



A typical graduate today makes $48k. You know what that gets you? Assuming you have $10k for a downpayment and $0 debt (lol), you can afford a house worth $208k. Add student loan debt, and it becomes IMPOSSIBLE.



What are those people supposed to do? $10k is about as cheap as a car gets, and if you need a car to get to work, you don't have a choice.



Murder is also punished by God. Should secular authorities not punish murder?



When it's a massive amount it's avarice, and avarice is inherently evil.



If you have enough for your family to live on, then there is certainly an obligation to give to charity whatever you don't need. Let me quote the Catechism:

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As far as 10K being as cheap as a car gets, that is absolutely false. I have never payed more then 2500 in cash for a vehicle. If you don’t care for your car as a status symbol you can absolutely not have a car payment.

Also student loans are a choice, I make more than 50K a year and have no student debt, there’s plenty of working class jobs that require minimum or no debt for training. Also you should never buy a 280K house with only 10 down. You need at least 70 and if you’re disciplined you can do that.

EMNofSeattle said:

As far as 10K being as cheap as a car gets, that is absolutely false. I have never payed more then 2500 in cash for a vehicle. If you don’t care for your car as a status symbol you can absolutely not have a car payment.

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The cheapest car that I can find at Carmax (nationwide) is $7k. That's for a 2008 Buick with 125k miles. Maybe you know more about cars and can find better deals, but that's not general knowledge.

Also student loans are a choice, I make more than 50K a year and have no student debt, there’s plenty of working class jobs that require minimum or no debt for training. Also you should never buy a 280K house with only 10 down. You need at least 70 and if you’re disciplined you can do that.

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So where is the blame for guidance counselors, parents, and colleges, who encourage our young people to make this bad choice? Why do they suffer all of the consequences for listening to people that they SHOULD trust?

Also, any response to that quote from the Catechism?

EMNofSeattle said:

As far as 10K being as cheap as a car gets, that is absolutely false. I have never payed more then 2500 in cash for a vehicle. If you don’t care for your car as a status symbol you can absolutely not have a car payment.

Also student loans are a choice, I make more than 50K a year and have no student debt, there’s plenty of working class jobs that require minimum or no debt for training. Also you should never buy a 280K house with only 10 down. You need at least 70 and if you’re disciplined you can do that.

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Also, since you seem like an honest debater, you might enjoy this, which really cuts to the heart of my criticism of free market capitalism and individualism (I say this as I was formerly a strict adherent to those ideologies!).

The Money myth exploded - The financial enigma resolved

phattonez said:

Sure, but do you really think that when housing is out of reach for most of our young people that they'll be just fine with that?

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Young people need to learn how to work and save to provide for their own necessities just like most other people.

EMNofSeattle said:

Education does not by necessity produce critical thinking skills. Those are only taught if the institution wants people to think critically. In fact they do not. American schools follow the Prussian model which was intended to tech loyalty and obedience to a secular state, what was Prussia known for? Oh yeah strictly disciplined soldiers. That’s where our education model comes from.

Philosophy is almost never taught, when it is secular French and German philosophers (of the type that produced the worst dictatorships in history) and not British Conservatives like Burke and free market pioneers like Smith are stressed, Joe Biden called for the abolition of British jurisprudence as a side note. Your premise is faulty on many levels.

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I see...for a moment I thought you were talking earlier about Universities being the ones doing the brainwashing, and not primary schools. I will definitely admit that the products of public education that come my way have sorry thinking skills. Public schools in this country were at least founded on the Prussian model, and do seem to be continuing those practices. I do my best with their products, and at least a few start to get it. Anyway, I don't teach political philosophy, but my two colleagues down the hall who do teach Smith. We did a seminar on Smith, Locke, and Ricardo last year, actually. It was well attended from what I could see.

phattonez said:

And this isn't even looking at a constant population. The workforce is older and more experienced, and we have a lower percentage of people working.

If you want to guarantee a socialist revolution, make sure that no one can afford basic necessities.

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And land prices alone have increased much faster than income too.
Population growth results in increasing the supply of consumers, while not having much effect at all on wages and employment.
Government subsidizing peoples needs and wants keeps prices from falling and the GDP growing, not to mention the constant devaluation of our currency which results in inflation, most notably on home and land prices and property taxes.

phattonez said:

And this isn't even looking at a constant population. The workforce is older and more experienced, and we have a lower percentage of people working.

If you want to guarantee a socialist revolution, make sure that no one can afford basic necessities.

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The logic that people aren't buying houses because prices are too high seems backwards to me. If people weren't buying houses prices would go down, not up.

I think there are other factors at play. Home purchasers are expecting larger homes with more amenities. If you look at post WW II homes, most are in the 500 - 600 ft 1 bath range. Today the norm is 1500 - 1600 range. In my last 5 years of appraising I never saw a newly constructed 1 bath home. Government has also made it easier to purchase. Lower down payments, relaxed credit scores, lower income to debt ratio all contribute.

You can't create a one line graph and assume that's the sole reason for the conclusion.

phattonez said:

It's interesting how all the conservatives apparently see no problem with homes being out of reach for most people. I guess they got theirs (wealth through property price accumulation) and now don't care about the effect on their children.

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A "conservative" is someone who never conserves anything.

Why Young People are Becoming Socialists in Three Words

They are not.

EMNofSeattle said:

No young people are becoming socialist because they're being brainwashed in liberal schools.

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This is the same line of thinking that leads people on the left to blame 4chan for the growth of the far right.

It reveals a profound lack of understanding of large scale social dynamics. People aren't radicalized by what they're told. People are radicalized by reality.

phattonez said:

And this isn't even looking at a constant population. The workforce is older and more experienced, and we have a lower percentage of people working.

If you want to guarantee a socialist revolution, make sure that no one can afford basic necessities.

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Why young people are becoming more socialist in one word: IGNORANCE.

phattonez said:

Lol, you really think people look at the fact that they can't afford a home, and it doesn't make them sympathetic to socialism? A guy coming out of college sees he can't afford to buy, is forced to rent at high cost, and thus must delay family formation. Yeah, sounds like the kind of thing most would be indifferent to.

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You can buy a really nice home in Virginia Beach for a $1000.00 - $1200.00 a month mortgage payment.

EMNofSeattle said:

Nobody delays family formation because of cost. Family formation is delayed because marriage has been destroyed as an institution by no fault divorce and birth control.

The poorest people in the world have families and have them young. I’m guessing most people of socialist inclination are not truly interested in having families, the women will be when they’re 35 and can’t get pregnant or find a man because they were told to focus on a career, and the men can fornicate because of the pill

Socialism is materialistic greed, that’s why they boil all problems down to power and economics, economics really has nothing to do with it. If it did then these people would support a Christian and free market society and not secular socialism

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Marriage destroyed as an institution? Really? Rudy and donald don't think so, they've both tried it several times. Capitalism is material greed practiced by all good christians. Ben Franklin is the god of america and that's a fact. Religion is now a weapon to be used against non christians, like me. Christians with their love of money and hatred of their brothers and sisters is not a religion I wish to belong to.

marke said:

Young people need to learn how to work and save to provide for their own necessities just like most other people.

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Then how about rich landlords stop charging young people 50% of their income for rent so that they can actually work and save for their own necessities? Why is that too much to ask?

jimbo said:

The logic that people aren't buying houses because prices are too high seems backwards to me. If people weren't buying houses prices would go down, not up.

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Landlords and foreigners are buying homes, not working Americans.

I think there are other factors at play. Home purchasers are expecting larger homes with more amenities. If you look at post WW II homes, most are in the 500 - 600 ft 1 bath range. Today the norm is 1500 - 1600 range. In my last 5 years of appraising I never saw a newly constructed 1 bath home. Government has also made it easier to purchase. Lower down payments, relaxed credit scores, lower income to debt ratio all contribute.

You can't create a one line graph and assume that's the sole reason for the conclusion.

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The Case-Shiller index controls for those variables, and it too shows the massive increase in home prices relative to incomes.

AmNat said:

A "conservative" is someone who never conserves anything.

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They conserve the liberal consensus from 5 years ago.

RetiredUSN said:

You can buy a really nice home in Virginia Beach for a $1000.00 - $1200.00 a month mortgage payment.

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That means nothing to millions of Americans who need cheaper housing. That's not a nation-wide solution.

phattonez said:

Then how about rich landlords stop charging young people 50% of their income for rent so that they can actually work and save for their own necessities? Why is that too much to ask?

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It is not the responsibility of landlords to help tenants with their rent. If rich landlords should help pay the rent for poor people then what about poor landlords? And why stop with landlords? How about rich car makers selling their cars at a loss so more poor people can buy them also? And so forth. Socialism does not work. Ever.

phattonez said:

They conserve the liberal consensus from 5 years ago.

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They fail even at that.

phattonez said:

It's interesting how all the conservatives apparently see no problem with homes being out of reach for most people. I guess they got theirs (wealth through property price accumulation) and now don't care about the effect on their children.

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I see it as a problem. We just aren't whiners like liberals are.