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Interesting Article about Trump and the Russian Mafia

ocean515 said:
I continuously wonder how people can view these obscenely biased opinion pieces from extreme left outfits like New Republic, and think they are being presented objective facts.
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The problem you have in your criticism is that it is a fact that known Russia mobsters (13 of them), did buy apartments in Trump Towers and many of them ran illicit actions from there. Coincidence?
 
Luckyone said:
The problem you have in your criticism is that it is a fact that known Russia mobsters (13 of them), did buy apartments in Trump Towers and many of them ran illicit actions from there. Coincidence?
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Your problem is trying to find a way to sell conjecture, innuendo, misrepresentation, and ideological driven propaganda, as legitimate fact.
 
ocean515 said:
Your problem is trying to find a way to sell conjecture, innuendo, misrepresentation, and ideological driven propaganda, as legitimate fact.
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Here are some legitimate FACTS for you!

Craig Unger

You really have to go back 20 or 30 years to understand who the key Russians were, what role they played in the Russian mafia, and how they related to Trump.

The very first episode that’s been documented, to my knowledge, was in 1984 when David Bogatin — who is a Russian mobster, convicted gasoline bootlegger, and close ally of Semion Mogilevich, a major Russian mob boss — met with Trump in Trump Tower right after it opened. Bogatin came to that meeting prepared to spend $6 million, which is equivalent to about $15 million today.

Bogatin bought five condos from Trump at that meeting. Those condos were later seized by the government, which claimed they were used to launder money for the Russian mob.

Sean Illing
Okay, to play devil’s advocate, can we say definitively that Trump knew who he was dealing with or what he was getting into? Or did he just naively have his hands out?

Craig Unger
Look, I can’t prove what was in Trump’s head, or what he knew or when he knew it. But I document something like 1,300 transactions of this kind with Russian mobsters. By that, I mean real estate transactions that were all cash purchases made by anonymous shell companies that were quite obviously fronts for criminal money-laundering operations. And this represents a huge chunk of Trump’s real estate activity in the United States, so it’s quite hard to argue that he had no idea what was going on.
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This is all fact, no innuendo!

Here is another factual event:

Craig Unger
Bayrock was a real estate development company located on the 24th floor of Trump Tower. The founder was a guy named Tevfik Arif and the managing director was Felix Sater, a man with numerous ties to Russian oligarchs and Russian intelligence. Bayrock proceeded to partner with Trump in 2005 and helped him develop a new business model, which he desperately needed.

Recall that Trump was $4 billion in debt after his Atlantic City casinos went bankrupt. He couldn’t get a bank loan from anywhere in the West, and Bayrock comes in and Trump partners with other people as well, but Bayrock essentially has a new model that says, “You don’t have to raise any money. You don’t have to do any of the real estate development. We just want to franchise your name, we’ll give you 18 to 25 percent royalties, and we’ll effectively do all the work. And if the Trump Organization gets involved in the management of these buildings, they’ll get extra fees for that.”

It was a fabulously lucrative deal for Trump, and the Bayrock associates — Sater in particular — were operating out of Trump Tower and constantly flying back and forth to Russia. And in the book, I detail several channels through which various people at Bayrock have close ties to the Kremlin, and I talk about Sater flying back and forth to Moscow even as late as 2016, hoping to build the Trump Tower there.
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This is all documented and fact. What it all means is open for interpretation but the reality is that Trump does have documented instances where he had business dealings with known Russian Mafia people and the Russian mafia is different from the American mafia, inasmuch as the Russian mafia is all connected to the state (the government) whereas here, they are simply individual families.
 
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ocean515 said:
Your problem is trying to find a way to sell conjecture, innuendo, misrepresentation, and ideological driven propaganda, as legitimate fact.
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Here are some more legitimate facts for you, written by a truly anti-Trump magazine (sarcasm) called TIME

Donald Trump's Many, Many, Many, Many Ties to Russia

Finally, for all of his denials of Russian ties lately, Trump has boasted in the past of his many meetings with Russian oligarchs. During one trip to Moscow, Trump bragged that they all showed up to meet him to discuss projects around the globe. “Almost all of the oligarchs were in the room” just to meet with him, Trump said at the time.

And when Trump built a tower in Panama, his clients were wealthy Russians, the Washington Post reported. “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia,” Trump’s son, Donald Jr., said at a real estate conference in 2008, according to a trade publication, eTurboNews.

The only instance that Trump acknowledges any sort of Russian financial connection is a Florida mansion he sold to a wealthy Russian. “What do I have to do with Russia?” Trump said in the wake of the DNC hack. “You know the closest I came to Russia, I bought a house a number of years ago in Palm Beach, Florida… for $40 million and I sold it to a Russian for $100 million including brokerage commissions.”
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In this article, Bayrock (company extensively connected to Russian Mafia) was also mentioned extensively.
 
Luckyone said:
Here are some more legitimate facts for you, written by a truly anti-Trump magazine (sarcasm) called TIME



In this article, Bayrock (company extensively connected to Russian Mafia) was also mentioned extensively.
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News flash, Russian oligarchs have a lot of money. They like to invest in things. Are you trying to suggest that anyone who accepts their money means they endorse the Russian mafia?

Shall we go through the list of other people who do business with Russian oligarchs?
 
ocean515 said:
News flash, Russian oligarchs have a lot of money. They like to invest in things. Are you trying to suggest that anyone who accepts their money means they endorse the Russian mafia?

Shall we go through the list of other people who do business with Russian oligarchs?
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Yes, lets do that. Show me with links (as I gave you) of Russian Oligarchs that are doing business with other people in the U.S. and more importantly, for the amount of years and money involved as with Trump.

C'mon, prove your point.
 
Helix said:
As for this story, I'll believe it when it's well documented. I've suspected for a while that Tweety's secret is Russian money laundering through real estate, but that's just a theory.
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Buzzfeed has extensive articles on this. Have you looked?
 
Mycroft said:
When an article makes suspect contentions or implications that are just plain wrong, it tends to make me wonder what else the article got wrong.

For example, the quote from the article you provide, Luckyone, contains this:

"Others provided Trump with lucrative branding deals that required no investment on his part."

This is presented as if it's a bad thing. Why? Because Trump didn't put up any cash in the branding deal? Trump doesn't need to put up any cash. His "investment" is his name. That is what the branding deal is all about. Someone wants to make money by using Trump's name and they pay Trump to be able to do it. Again, Trump is investing his name...and getting a return on his investment. There is nothing wrong about this sort of deal...certainly nothing illegal about it.

So...the article presents something in a way that implies that Trump is doing something that he shouldn't be doing...making a branding deal without investing anything on his part. This is a dishonest tactic on the part of the writer of the article. So again, the question arises...what else is the writer being dishonest about?

Personally...I don't care enough about this to spend much time and effort trying to find out, but I suggest anyone who is inclined to believe the nonsense in this article to think carefully about the contentions and implication made by the writer. I don't trust the writer and neither should you.
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Even if all of his deals with Russia are not illegal. The fact that most of his wealth, in the last few decades, are because of Deustchebank ( te Russian branch, who once paid a 650 million dollar fine for money laundering ) loaning him money, and Russian money where this bank is the conduit, it is affecting American's foreign policy.

When personal interest drives foreign policy, you have a president who is a threat to national security.

THAT is the point.

ON top of this, Trump continually, incessantly, LIED about his Russian deals, or mislead.
 
Luckyone said:
Yes, lets do that. Show me with links (as I gave you) of Russian Oligarchs that are doing business with other people in the U.S. and more importantly, for the amount of years and money involved as with Trump.

C'mon, prove your point.
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Here is a link to a list of Russian Oligarchs and their investments in businesses outside of Russia. Some have major investments in Facebook and Twitter, others bought unknown sports teams like the New Jersey Nets, or Warner Music.

Russian oligarchs that own western companies - Business Insider


Should everyone involved with these Russian Oligarchs at one time or another be considered sympathizes and partners with the Russian Mafia?
 
Luckyone said:
Interesting but true story about Trump and the Russian Mafia.

It certainly opens the door for 2 possibilities mentioned below:

1) Trump was a patsy for the Russian mafia
2) Trump was knowingly involved.

Either way, it is big negative for Trump.
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Trumpets simply don't care.

As long as their supply of Budweiser doe snot run low they will sit with their guns to protect their orange deity.
 
ocean515 said:
Here is a link to a list of Russian Oligarchs and their investments in businesses outside of Russia. Some have major investments in Facebook and Twitter, others bought unknown sports teams like the New Jersey Nets, or Warner Music.

Russian oligarchs that own western companies - Business Insider


Should everyone involved with these Russian Oligarchs at one time or another be considered sympathizes and partners with the Russian Mafia?
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Thanks for walking into my trap. I researched the question I asked you and came up with the exact same article you did. The "I gotcha" comes in the fact that most of these people do not have interests here but in Europe and one of those that does have an interest here is the one for Twitter and he actually spent 8 years in a Soviet prison and is an enemy of Putin. In addition, the articles I sent you in the original posts show that there were over 1300 cash purchases by Russians in conjunction with Trump and there were 13 different Russians dealing with Trump. None of these oligarchs on this list show a pattern of dealing with one person.

As such, yes, Russian oligarchs do spend money outside of Russia but not with any pattern where they concentrate on spending money on one person (Trump).

Gotcha!
 
noonereal said:
Trumpets simply don't care.

As long as their supply of Budweiser doe snot run low they will sit with their guns to protect their orange deity.
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Yes, I agree but it is so much fun to prove them wrong (even if they do not agree that they are wrong) that it is worth it. It has been proven over and over again that Trumpets don't care but the positive part is that researching the information has been extremely educational to me and knowledge is a goal of mine. I actually have to thank the Trumpers for this because if it wasn't because one has to research the truth to the nth degree or they just say "Prove it" right back, it has been an absolute pleasure to see that they can't disprove my points. They try, oh boy do they try, but they have been unable to do so yet.
 
ocean515 said:
Here is a link to a list of Russian Oligarchs and their investments in businesses outside of Russia. Some have major investments in Facebook and Twitter, others bought unknown sports teams like the New Jersey Nets, or Warner Music.

Russian oligarchs that own western companies - Business Insider


Should everyone involved with these Russian Oligarchs at one time or another be considered sympathizes and partners with the Russian Mafia?
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Pretty much yes. All that money is laundered and was stolen from the Russian people
 
Luckyone said:
Interesting but true story about Trump and the Russian Mafia.

It certainly opens the door for 2 possibilities mentioned below:

1) Trump was a patsy for the Russian mafia
2) Trump was knowingly involved.

Either way, it is big negative for Trump.
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no coordination or conspiracy or collusion.
so your article is bunk compared to an in depth 2 year FBi investigation.
 
ocean515 said:
I continuously wonder how people can view these obscenely biased opinion pieces from extreme left outfits like New Republic, and think they are being presented objective facts.
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It is called TDS.

TDS destroys the ability to critically think or do anything that is remotely unbias when it comes to trump or anything that trump does.
the fact is that they cried and whined and swore the mueller report would end him.

this is the reaction because well the mueller report did no such thing.
 
Luckyone said:
Yes, lets do that. Show me with links (as I gave you) of Russian Oligarchs that are doing business with other people in the U.S. and more importantly, for the amount of years and money involved as with Trump.

C'mon, prove your point.
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The base? Provide reputable sources? :lamo
 
ludin said:
It is called TDS.

TDS destroys the ability to critically think or do anything that is remotely unbias when it comes to trump or anything that trump does.
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Indeed it does. Trump Devotion Syndrome does do all of that.

Just look at how much of his base vigorously defends Trump standing on stage in Helsinki, united with Russia, against the entire American Intelligence community.
 
JustHanging said:
Indeed it does. Trump Devotion Syndrome does do all of that.

Just look at how much of his base vigorously defends Trump standing on stage in Helsinki, united with Russia, against the entire American Intelligence community.
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No collusion
no obstruction.

so you were saying again? yeah because this so called un-named sources kept spouting what everyone knew and already knew was a myth.

no collusion, conspiracy or coordination.

no obstruction.
 
ludin said:
No collusion
no obstruction.
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LOL, nice parroting. You've learned well. But you're parroting the wrong words for this discussion.

Let's a different approach: What does that have to do with Trump standing on stage in Helsinki, united with Putin, against the entire American Intelligence community?
 
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JustHanging said:
LOL, nice parroting. You've learned well. But you're parroting the wrong words for this discussion.

Let's a different approach: What does that have to do with Trump standing on stage in Helsinki, united with Putin, against the entire American Intelligence community?
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Not at all. It was in the mueller report or did you not read the mueller report like 90% of the other people out there squaking?
yep he had every right to rail against the intelligence community. They were trying to setup a coupe to defraud the US populace and
get rid of a duly elected president of the US.

this is the first time i have seen something like this occur in the US and it is a very concerning sign that we have people working in government
that would try to over throw a president elected by the people.

there are ways to get rid of a president if he has broken the law. making up false stories and making up false and untrue alligations is not one of those ways.
 
"The Special Counsel’s investigation did not find that the Trump campaign or anyone associated with it conspired or coordinated with Russia in its efforts to influence the 2016 US presidential election,” -Mueller
 
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