Conservatives who aren't Christian

snakestretcher said:

And of course you don't need to be a Christian to do good things.

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Of course not. Christianity is not the only reason to do good things. But it is another reason to do them, and we need as many of those as possible. The more reasons to do good things, the more likely people are to do them.

History has shown us that people are willing to die for their religion more than anything else. Are they willing to die for what their government or internal moral conscience tells them to do? Probably not as much. People will embrace death, break laws, go against their country, disown their culture, and even abandon all reason for the sake of their religion. Few other things can draw that amount of devotion from people. Therefore I would say few other things can make them listen the way religion does.

That's not to say you can't be a good person without Christianity, just that you are much more likely to be one if you're a Christian. Most normal people will refrain from murdering, stealing, lying etc, but of those around the world working with the sick and poor for free or choosing to die in wars for the sake of preserving what's right are making such a huge sacrifice because of their religious devotion.

This doesn't account for 100% of cases, maybe not even 50%. But you can't deny that it accounts for a lot. Therefore, it's impossible to claim that Christianity produces no value or is a detriment to society.

Crusader13 said:

Of course not. Christianity is not the only reason to do good things. But it is another reason to do them, and we need as many of those as possible. The more reasons to do good things, the more likely people are to do them.

History has shown us that people are willing to die for their religion more than anything else. Are they willing to die for what their government or internal moral conscience tells them to do? Probably not as much. People will embrace death, break laws, go against their country, disown their culture, and even abandon all reason for the sake of their religion. Few other things can draw that amount of devotion from people. Therefore I would say few other things can make them listen the way religion does.

That's not to say you can't be a good person without Christianity, just that you are much more likely to be one if you're a Christian. Most normal people will refrain from murdering, stealing, lying etc, but of those around the world working with the sick and poor for free or choosing to die in wars for the sake of preserving what's right are making such a huge sacrifice because of their religious devotion.

This doesn't account for 100% of cases, maybe not even 50%. But you can't deny that it accounts for a lot.

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the only part of this that's true is that people are more willing to die for their religion than anything else, because that's what religion does.

Christians aren't less likely to commit crime, they aren't less likely to commit more serious crimes, they aren't more likely to be "good" people, etc...some religions do seem to be better about those things, and those who claim no religion are one of the best groups in those terms.

And, in terms of systemic issues, Christianity is basically the worst thing we have in America. The Catholic Church has a problem with child molestation and rape so large I'm surprised they're allowed to still exist at all, and various Denominations of Protestantism have huge issues with child molestation, child marriage, domestic and child abuse, and just generally being ****ty people over LGBT issues.

But, sure, maybe Christians do give more to charity or something lol

nekrodev said:

the only part of this that's true is that people are more willing to die for their religion than anything else, because that's what religion does.

Christians aren't less likely to commit crime, they aren't less likely to commit more serious crimes, they aren't more likely to be "good" people, etc...some religions do seem to be better about those things, and those who claim no religion are one of the best groups in those terms.

And, in terms of systemic issues, Christianity is basically the worst thing we have in America. The Catholic Church has a problem with child molestation and rape so large I'm surprised they're allowed to still exist at all, and various Denominations of Protestantism have huge issues with child molestation, child marriage, domestic and child abuse, and just generally being ****ty people over LGBT issues.

But, sure, maybe Christians do give more to charity or something lol

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Child molestation is no more prominent within the Church than it is in any other institution. To single out the Church as if it invented the concept or is even the biggest perpetrator is just dishonest.

Funny you've blamed the Church twice now for being so critical of homosexuals while blaming the church for acts committed by its homosexual members. Yeah.

Crusader13 said:

Those values that people already hold come from the culture they grew up in, which has been heavily influenced by Christianity. If you grew up in America or Europe there's no escaping the enormous influence it has had.

The only Westerners that will be able to say they didn't grow up in Christian-influenced society will probably be those born in the last decade or so. Even then they wouldn't be able to escape it completely. Christianity is ingrained in Western culture.



Fair point, but that's not unique to religion either. Social policies and state laws can and have led to those things too

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I'm not sure I buy into your culture argument. There are plenty of people who grow up here and are Jewish. I think parental influence is far more influential.

However, I won't dismiss your argument either. There are people who grow up secular/atheistic and "find God " later in life. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the majority become Christians and culture probably has something to do with this. But still, I think parental influence is stronger

I'm glad you recognized that religion can promote values that aren't necessarily good. This , along with the fact that religion isn't always the source of these values, at the very least, weakens the claim that religion is good for society. And here's another argument against it:

When a belief is supported by religion, it becomes less susceptible to reason. It's hard to reason someone out of a belief when logic, facts, and reason are not why they believe it. IMO, this type of approach is not good for society or the individual.

Crusader13 said:

Child molestation is no more prominent within the Church than it is in any other institution. To single out the Church as if it invented the concept or is even the biggest perpetrator is just dishonest.

Funny you've blamed the Church twice now for being so critical of homosexuals while blaming the church for acts committed by its homosexual members. Yeah.

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not my fault it's a giant hypocritical ****storm

sangha said:

I'm not sure I buy into your culture argument. There are plenty of people who grow up here and are Jewish. I think parental influence is far more influential.

However, I won't dismiss your argument either. There are people who grow up secular/atheistic and "find God " later in life. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the majority become Christians and culture probably has something to do with this. But still, I think parental influence is stronger

I'm glad you recognized that religion can promote values that aren't necessarily good. This , along with the fact that religion isn't always the source of these values, at the very least, weakens the claim that religion is good for society. And here's another argument against it:

When a belief is supported by religion, it becomes less susceptible to reason. It's hard to reason someone out of a belief when logic, facts, and reason are not why they believe it. IMO, this type of approach is not good for society or the individual.

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Each to their own. Regarding parental influence - the average American's parents grew up in an even more Christian America than today. This applies to most of the West. Whether those parents were religious or not is irrelevant - fact is they would've grown up in a society and government heavily influenced by religious people. This would've ingrained them with the morals they eventually pass down to their kids.

Christianity is the not the original source for some of the morals it preaches, but it is the most recognizable and relatable. Germany didn't invent beer nor did Italians invent pizza but if you ask the average person they would associate those things with those cultures because of how good they've been at promoting them. Much the same way, even atheists would know the quote "turn the other cheek", or "judge not lest ye be judged". Maybe Jesus wasn't the first person to say these things but can the average person quote some other prominent philosopher who said something along these lines? Probably not. Jesus had a very good way with words and the way Christianity packages and sells these teachings is better than the way other institutions do.

Crusader13 said:

Each to their own. Regarding parental influence - the average American's parents grew up in an even more Christian America than today. This applies to most of the West. Whether those parents were religious or not is irrelevant - fact is they would've grown up in a society and government heavily influenced by religious people. This would've ingrained them with the morals they eventually pass down to their kids.

Christianity is the not the original source for some of the morals it preaches, but it is the most recognizable and relatable. Germany didn't invent beer nor did Italians invent pizza but if you ask the average person they would associate those things with those cultures because of how good they've been at promoting them. Much the same way, even atheists would know the quote "turn the other cheek", or "judge not lest ye be judged". Maybe Jesus wasn't the first person to say these things but can the average person quote some other prominent philosopher who said something along these lines? Probably not. Jesus had a very good way with words and the way Christianity packages and sells these teachings is better than the way other institutions do.

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If culture was as influential as you believe in this regard, why would there be a decades long trend of people leaving religion in general and christianity specifically?

Sweden said:

You accept that very few Christians live according to what you suppose are Christian teachings. Does not this suggest that most do not believe them? Or that their understanding of the 'teachings' differ from yours?

You say that Jesus was killed by religious people, which can only mean the Jews; the Romans who did the actual killing just wanted rid of a rabble-rouser. So we are back to what I was taught by the Nuns, all those years go while the holocaust was at its height.

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I explained clearly that hypocrisy is a human problem not merely a Christian problem. Just because people claim to be Christian doesn’t mean their actions are genuinely motivated by Christian teachings.

If you were properly indoctrinated by your Catholic school then you know Christianity teaches that you love your enemies and turn the other cheek when attacked. There’s no way to twist that into a horrible religion.

I never said Jews killed Jesus, you did. I said religious people killed Jesus. The entire Gospel is a struggle between Jesus and the judgmental religious types you hate. Sadly, the self righteous judgmental religious people killed Jesus then and are still killing him today.

If Christians genuinely followed Jesus you would have no problem with them. You’re better off encouraging Christians to live up to the teachings of Jesus than attacking their faith.


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SonOfDaedalus said:

I explained clearly that hypocrisy is a human problem not merely a Christian problem. Just because people claim to be Christian doesn’t mean their actions are genuinely motivated by Christian teachings.

If you were properly indoctrinated by your Catholic school then you know Christianity teaches that you love your enemies and turn the other cheek when attacked. There’s no way to twist that into a horrible religion.

I never said Jews killed Jesus, you did. I said religious people killed Jesus. The entire Gospel is a struggle between Jesus and the judgmental religious types you hate. Sadly, the self righteous judgmental religious people killed Jesus then and are still killing him today.

If Christians genuinely followed Jesus you would have no problem with them. You’re better off encouraging Christians to live up to the teachings of Jesus than attacking their faith.


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It seems impossible for the religiou to grasp jut how off-putting is the vague and imprecise language they use. For them word not longer have meanings.

"I never said Jews killed Jesus, I said religious people killed Jesus". Which religious people? There were no Hindus around.

"Christianity teaches ... that you turn the other cheek when attacked". So it is only possible to be a Christian if one is a committed and total pacifist. All soldiers go to hell.

"judgmental religious people are still killing him (Jesus) today". It is the deliberate abandonment of reason and common sense leading to nonsensical statements that many of us find so off-putting.

sangha said:

If culture was as influential as you believe in this regard, why would there be a decades long trend of people leaving religion in general and christianity specifically?

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Because people don't want to church anymore or practice other old rituals, but the morals they've grown up to live by are still Christian influenced. Unfortunately, it's not human nature to think that murder is wrong or to live and let live. People who grow up in Muslim countries tend not to hold these morals as often as people who grow up in Christian countries.

Sweden said:

It seems impossible for the religiou to grasp jut how off-putting is the vague and imprecise language they use. For them word not longer have meanings.

"I never said Jews killed Jesus, I said religious people killed Jesus". Which religious people? There were no Hindus around.

"Christianity teaches ... that you turn the other cheek when attacked". So it is only possible to be a Christian if one is a committed and total pacifist. All soldiers go to hell.

"judgmental religious people are still killing him (Jesus) today". It is the deliberate abandonment of reason and common sense leading to nonsensical statements that many of us find so off-putting.

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Actually, some Christians are pacifists. I would argue that’s the correct reading of Jesus’ teachings. Ever see Hacksaw Ridge? Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, Jehovah’s Witness’s are pacifist.

The Declaration of Independence says all men are created equal yet they had slaves. The human capacity for total hypocrisy is endless. It’s not that the text is unclear.

You ask which religious people killed Jesus. I say it’s irrelevant because self righteousness is possible in all religions or political ideology. It’s like I said a person robbed someone and you insist on asking about his ethnicity. Wouldn’t you agree it’s irrelevant? All ethnicities are capable of violence.

I get your point about the ambiguity of religious texts but consider that even carefully worded legal documents can be ambiguous. That’s why we have judges and even a Supreme Court. Even when the text is clear a corrupt heart can still twist the text. Human beings are corrupt. Christianity overwhelmingly promotes humility, selfishness and love. The human heart is full of evil.


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SonOfDaedalus said:

Actually, some Christians are pacifists. I would argue that’s the correct reading of Jesus’ teachings. Ever see Hacksaw Ridge? Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, Jehovah’s Witness’s are pacifist.

The Declaration of Independence says all men are created equal yet they had slaves. The human capacity for total hypocrisy is endless. It’s not that the text is unclear.

You ask which religious people killed Jesus. I say it’s irrelevant because self righteousness is possible in all religions or political ideology. It’s like I said a person robbed someone and you insist on asking about his ethnicity. Wouldn’t you agree it’s irrelevant? All ethnicities are capable of violence.

I get your point about the ambiguity of religious texts but consider that even carefully worded legal documents can be ambiguous. That’s why we have judges and even a Supreme Court. Even when the text is clear a corrupt heart can still twist the text. Human beings are corrupt. Christianity overwhelmingly promotes humility, selfishness and love. The human heart is full of evil.


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"Human hearts are full of evil". Unsupported generalisation. Example to disprove: Beyond any doubt your heart (I would say brain) has no discernible trace of evil. Even mine is not quite full.

Sweden said:

"Human hearts are full of evil". Unsupported generalisation. Example to disprove: Beyond any doubt your heart (I would say brain) has no discernible trace of evil. Even mine is not quite full.

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Islam, with its exceptionally strong embrace of traditional values, is the ideal religion for conservatives. You should all consider the joy that awaits in your becoming Muslims.