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Why Democrats in Congress MUST impeach

PoppyCock said:
It is directly on point, if he is innocent there is nothing to "obstruct".
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A) Trump wasn't innocent.
B) You can still obstruct even if there is not a parallel criminal charge brought.

I have no idea where people are getting the legal analysis that obstruction cannot happen without a parallel criminal charge, but those people are getting played for fools. You most DEFINITELY can obstruct an investigation, even if the investigation has nothing to do with you.
 
Slyfox696 said:
A) Trump wasn't innocent.
B) You can still obstruct even if there is not a parallel criminal charge brought.

I have no idea where people are getting the legal analysis that obstruction cannot happen without a parallel criminal charge, but those people are getting played for fools. You most DEFINITELY can obstruct an investigation, even if the investigation has nothing to do with you.
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A) that's funny, do you know something Mueller missed?
 
lurchadams said:
You know I'm celebrating 420 right now, so pardon any perceived impairment on my part.

You, my friend, are a true believer. I'm comparing you now to heroes such as Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Barack Obama. I'm not being sarcastic. You are steadfast in your beliefs in that the only course is the morally correct course. You are willing to die for your cause! You are whatever the opposite of a pragmatist is.

I am a pragmatist. I have kids to put through college and I don't want the world to end. If we allow THE CURRENT GOP to prevail in 2020, we are on the road to a real disaster. Do you think this current leadership from the top down would be able to navigate a serious national crisis if we had one right now? We are all 5 minutes from being in serious, serious trouble my friend.

Besides, as I said, our current national voting system is a system so insecure it's just dying to being ****ed with by our enemies. Let the Dems campaign to fix that - then we can work on the kind of change you want.

I'm not morally inferior, my friend, I promise you. We have time to effect the change you want. After 2020!
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Think about what I wrote. There are few times in history that test the soul in a such profound way as the current time. To acquiesce to expediences, this, I believe with every fiber in my being, is an epic mistake.

Either way has it's own risks. This is what you must realize. I'd rather risk on the right side of history, than on the wrong side.

Mediocrity rarely bears wonderful fruits. but one can easily predict that whatever it bears, among them, there is almost always regret.
 
PoppyCock said:
It is directly on point, if he is innocent there is nothing to "obstruct".
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No, but one can obstruct justice if one thinks that what one is doing is wrong, il.e, "has a guilty mindset" though not technically illegal.
This is one of the big reasons Mueller wanted to interview Trump, to size him up, to get a sense of the state of his mind.

See?

Therefore, the statement's premise is simplistic. As such, not on point because it does not work. Reality is more complex, and yes, one can commit a crime of obstruction merely for obstructing official inquiry into questionable behavior that is attempted to be covered up, suppressed, investigations thwarted, successfully or not, whether or not that which is under scrutiny rises to a prosecutable level.

And, the obstruction rises to a prosecutable level when it is done in great abundance, where the corrupt intent becomes clear, over time.

Because Mueller is following OLC guidelines, he is kicking it up to Congress ( the wording in the report suggests this, quite clearlly, contrary to Bill Barr's assertion to the contrary ) to act.


That is what legal authorities (other prosecutors ) are saying, as I understand it.
 
OscarLevant said:
No, but one can obstruct justice if one thinks that what one is doing is wrong, il.e, "has a guilty mindset" though not technically illegal.
This is one of the big reasons Mueller wanted to interview Trump, to size him up, to get a sense of the state of his mind.

See?

Therefore, the statement's premise is simplistic. As such, not on point because it does not work. Reality is more complex, and yes, one can commit a crime of obstruction merely for obstructing official inquiry into questionable behavior that is attempted to be covered up, suppressed, investigations thwarted, successfully or not, whether or not that which is under scrutiny rises to a prosecutable level.

And, the obstruction rises to a prosecutable level when it is done in great abundance, where the corrupt intent becomes clear, over time.

Because Mueller is following OLC guidelines, he is kicking it up to Congress ( the wording in the report suggests this, quite clearlly, contrary to Bill Barr's assertion to the contrary ) to act.


That is what legal authorities (other prosecutors ) are saying, as I understand it.
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Sitting down with Mueller is akin to allowing a cop into your home voluntarily. There is nothing, at all to be gained and no reason to.

This "if you are innocent, you wont mind being interrogated" mentallity is authoritarianism at it's finest. Only a moron attorney would have advised him to do so.
 
OscarLevant said:
If he is impeached, and the trial is successful, he wont be a martyr. Maybe for a while, but he'll be forgotten and written off in the history books as an anecdote on how America temporariliy lost it's way. As the truth comes out, and senators no longer need him as a crutch, they will discard him like moldy cheeseburger.
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is that hopes and dreams talkings, or are you confident that Trump will be removed?

you know the old saying, wish in one hand, crap in the other....see which one fills faster

i think you know it is a pipedream....but keep smoking that good stuff
 
PoppyCock said:
A) that's funny, do you know something Mueller missed?
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No, I'm using Mueller's report. You should try reading it, it'll save you from saying incredibly stupid things.
 
gdgyva said:
is that hopes and dreams talkings, or are you confident that Trump will be removed?

you know the old saying, wish in one hand, crap in the other....see which one fills faster

i think you know it is a pipedream....but keep smoking that good stuff
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I'm as slightly certain as you are slightly conservative.

It all can fade, certainly. If there is any hope to achieving anything, inaction is not the answer
 
PoppyCock said:
Sitting down with Mueller is akin to allowing a cop into your home voluntarily. There is nothing, at all to be gained and no reason to.

This "if you are innocent, you wont mind being interrogated" mentallity is authoritarianism at it's finest. Only a moron attorney would have advised him to do so.
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We are talking about the President Of The United States, not some traffic ticket cop in you living room.

At that level, much greater dynamics are at play, not the least one of which is the overriding interest of America -- the concern of all Americans in having a president that is not a crook.

When called, a leader doesn't cower.
 
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Slyfox696 said:
No, I'm using Mueller's report. You should try reading it, it'll save you from saying incredibly stupid things.
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That's nice. I dont believe in an incredibly stupid fantasy. Good luck with that.
 
Slyfox696 said:
No, I'm using Mueller's report. You should try reading it, it'll save you from saying incredibly stupid things.
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by all means, please cite the passages because the ones about finding no evidence of conspiracy or coordination are pretty clear.
 
PoppyCock said:
That's nice. I dont believe in an incredibly stupid fantasy. Good luck with that.
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You don't believe in the Mueller report. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

Hypothetical said:
by all means, please cite the passages because the ones about finding no evidence of conspiracy or coordination are pretty clear.
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That is not at all what Mueller's report said. You are posting lies. Mueller's report stated it could not "establish", based on admissible evidence, a criminal charge on two very narrow issues of conspiracy. Not being able to establish enough on particular charges that a prosecutor can have a good faith in conviction is not the same as finding no evidence at all. But, for the passage you request:

Third, the investigation established that several individuals affiliated with the Trump Campaign lied to the Office, and to Congress, about their interactions with Russian-affiliated individuals and related matters. Those lies materially impaired the investigation of Russian election interference. The Office charged some of those lies as violations of the federal false-statements statute. Former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn pleaded guilty to lying about his interactions with Russian Ambassador Kislyak during the transition period. George Papadopoulos, a foreign policy advisor during the campaign period, pleaded guilty to lying to investigators about, inter alia, the nature and timing of his interactions with Joseph Mifsud, the professor who told Papadopoulos that the Russians had dirt on candidate Clinton in the form of thousands of emails. Former Trump Organization attorney Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to making false statements to Congress about the Trump Moscow project. And in February 2019, the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia found that Manafort lied to the Office and the grand jury concerning his interactions and communications with Konstantin Kilimnik about Trump Campaign polling data and a peace plan for Ukraine.
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That's collusion, especially when you delve more deeply into the various issues.
 
Politically, impeachment is very risky. However, we have a president who considers himself and his allies to be above the law. By not responding forcefully to this, the House is empowering him. This whole Russia affair isn't just an aberration, this is who he is. He is bringing into the executive branch more and more people who put him before the country - just look at the change at the top of the Justice Dept. for proof of this. He will increase his attacks on the law and our institutions, and he will increase his unethical attempts to win re-election and gain more and more personal power. Clearly, the alternative to doing nothing is the allowing of tyranny.

If they want to start off with oversight hearing that go over the Mueller report in detail, that's fine. Americans do not only deserve the right to know the truth about this president, but it is also their responsibility to know the truth and to do something about it.
 
Slyfox696 said:
You don't believe in the Mueller report. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

That is not at all what Mueller's report said. You are posting lies. Mueller's report stated it could not "establish", based on admissible evidence, a criminal charge on two very narrow issues of conspiracy. Not being able to establish enough on particular charges that a prosecutor can have a good faith in conviction is not the same as finding no evidence at all. But, for the passage you request:



That's collusion, especially when you delve more deeply into the various issues.
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That quote is quite an indictment of Trump.
 
Helix said:
Tweety is essentially above the law, and the only way around it is to win. an impeachment attempt before 2020 will likely hurt non-cultists in multiple ways :

1. a nearly guaranteed non-conviction in the senate, if not in the house, as well.
2. a hyper-motivated Tweety cult turnout
3. if successful (and there's no ****ing way that that it's going to be successful,) an incumbent Pence running in 2020. i don't think that anti-cultists want that at all.

win the ****ing election with a good candidate. just ****ing win.
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Set political tactics aside. Is impeachment the right thing to do?
 
Cardinal said:
Set political tactics aside. Is impeachment the right thing to do?
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25A was probably the right thing to do, as he is unfit for office. impeachment? sure. i mean, the idiot took significant bribes through his ex-lawyer's fake companies and paid hush money to porn stars that he was boinking. that alone would have brought down any other administration. the game has changed now, though. i think that the best path forward is to defeat him in 2020 and then to let him spend the rest of his life defending himself legally against NY state.
 
I think impeachment would be a mistake. I keep hoping that the Republican Party will drop Trump and give us another option for 2020 but that's a pipe dream. I'm not confident in the Democratic Party's ability to come up with a viable candidate. I'd like to say that no matter who the Dems put up, they'll win simply because the public at large doesn't want another 4 years of Trump. The fact that Trump is in the White House today proves that ANYTHING can happen.
 
Slyfox696 said:
You don't believe in the Mueller report. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

That is not at all what Mueller's report said. You are posting lies. Mueller's report stated it could not "establish", based on admissible evidence, a criminal charge on two very narrow issues of conspiracy. Not being able to establish enough on particular charges that a prosecutor can have a good faith in conviction is not the same as finding no evidence at all. But, for the passage you request:



That's collusion, especially when you delve more deeply into the various issues.
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not being able to establish = no crime.

lets not play unnecessary word games. no crime of conspiracy or coordination occurred. it's that simple.
 
Hypothetical said:
not being able to establish = no crime.
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False. Not being able to establish simply means investigators could not get enough admissible evidence to have good faith prosecution would end in conviction.

That does not mean a crime did not occur.

lets not play unnecessary word games.
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We're not. You asked me where Mueller listed collusive acts and I told you. Now you are trying to sweep it under the rug because Mueller's words support what I said and proves you wrong.

I'm not playing word games. You're trying to, but you're terrible at it.

no crime of conspiracy or coordination occurred.
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This is a lie, as I have already proven.

Trump defenders are the worst liars.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Fa

That does not mean a crime did not occur.
rs.
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YEah it kinda does.

If you can't find evidence of a crime, ain't no crime, just gossip.
 
Slyfox696 said:
False. Not being able to establish simply means investigators could not get enough admissible evidence to have good faith prosecution would end in conviction.

That does not mean a crime did not occur.

We're not. You asked me where Mueller listed collusive acts and I told you. Now you are trying to sweep it under the rug because Mueller's words support what I said and proves you wrong.

I'm not playing word games. You're trying to, but you're terrible at it.

This is a lie, as I have already proven.

Trump defenders are the worst liars.
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LOL look i don't know where you are from, but it means exactly that in this country that you are innocent until PROVEN guilty.. if they can't PROVE he was guilty then he did not commit a crime.

now if you think the over 2 year investigation and surveillance they had the administration under was somehow faulty, that's one thing, but if they cannot prove that a crime was committed, he is innocent.

sorry , we don't do guilt by public opinion here, that is not Justice.
 
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Bullseye said:
I hope they do! It will destroy them for years.
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Yup, I'm so damn tired of hearing the Dems bloviate. Put up or shut up, Dems! Impeach Trump, I DARE you!
Then say hello to President Pence.
 
Acadia said:
Yup, I'm so damn tired of hearing the Dems bloviate. Put up or shut up, Dems! Impeach Trump, I DARE you!
Then say hello to President Pence.
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WEll- we al know an impeachment would go NOwhwere/
Just another chance for Dems to show us normals how annoying they are
 
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