Are we repeating the past when we turn asylum seekers away?

Voyage of the St. Louis | The Holocaust Encyclopedia
Before we entered WWII the St Louis, a ship full of Jews tried to land in the US and several other countries. We refused them asylum because they had no visa's or security clearances. In the end, 240 of them died in the German concentration camps. Not the best thing this country has ever done as we already knew how the German's were treating the German Jews. So is history repeating itself with the people fleeing the Central American countries that are trying to reach the US and safety. I guess it is like the old saying, if we do not learn from history we are bound to repeat it.

independentusa said:

Voyage of the St. Louis | The Holocaust Encyclopedia
Before we entered WWII the St Louis, a ship full of Jews tried to land in the US and several other countries. We refused them asylum because they had no visa's or security clearances. In the end, 240 of them died in the German concentration camps. Not the best thing this country has ever done as we already knew how the German's were treating the German Jews. So is history repeating itself with the people fleeing the Central American countries that are trying to reach the US and safety. I guess it is like the old saying, if we do not learn from history we are bound to repeat it.

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Pretty ignorant to compare sending folks back to a holocaust to an open border policy for our nation. We still have an asylum policy for people who truly in harms way.

washunut said:

Pretty ignorant to compare sending folks back to a holocaust to an open border policy for our nation. We still have an asylum policy for people who truly in harms way.

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AH, but Trump has decided we are "full" and can take no more asylum seekers, sending many of them back to their deaths in countries with little government and full of gangs that are ten times worse than any gang here in the US. So comparing sending Jews back to Germany those many years ago and asylum seekers now seems to be very similar. For many in both groups, going back means death at the hands of the people in control of their countries. So instead of winnowing the true asylum seekers from those who just want a better life is too hard for us stupid Americans. I guess you do not have a good opinion of our capabilities.

Are we repeating the past when we turn asylum seekers away?

yes.

washunut said:

Pretty ignorant to compare sending folks back to a holocaust to an open border policy for our nation. We still have an asylum policy for people who truly in harms way.

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The situation in Honduras is absolutely comparable.

independentusa said:

Voyage of the St. Louis | The Holocaust Encyclopedia
Before we entered WWII the St Louis, a ship full of Jews tried to land in the US and several other countries. We refused them asylum because they had no visa's or security clearances. In the end, 240 of them died in the German concentration camps. Not the best thing this country has ever done as we already knew how the German's were treating the German Jews. So is history repeating itself with the people fleeing the Central American countries that are trying to reach the US and safety. I guess it is like the old saying, if we do not learn from history we are bound to repeat it.

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No. Mexico will take them, I think.

Of course, they'll have to comply with Mexico's immigration laws first.

independentusa said:

AH, but Trump has decided we are "full" and can take no more asylum seekers, sending many of them back to their deaths in countries with little government and full of gangs that are ten times worse than any gang here in the US. So comparing sending Jews back to Germany those many years ago and asylum seekers now seems to be very similar. For many in both groups, going back means death at the hands of the people in control of their countries. So instead of winnowing the true asylum seekers from those who just want a better life is too hard for us stupid Americans. I guess you do not have a good opinion of our capabilities.

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First, asylum is not, and cannot, be a generic do-good policy of permitting anyone in the world to settle in the US simply because they face hardship and an increased risk of death, it is a policy of limited protection in certain circumstances that DO NOT affect or harm the American citizenry.

240 Jews or 240 El Salvadorians are not going to materially affect us. But 1,000,000 or 10,000,000 will. So the policy has limits, and what is a 'mistake' in one circumstance is not a mistake in another.

Second, after the holocaust, the bounded moral circumstances were set in: those who face serious persecution because of their membership in a "race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group." can (not must) be admitted. Just because you are a woman who fears for her safety is not (or should not) be protected: her persecution must be BECAUSE she is a woman.

Third, the holocaust was a lesson in genocide and the need to make provisions for a nationality whose very existence was threatened. To stay in Germany or German occupied Europe meant certain death. But such circumstances do not exist for the C.A. asylum seekers - most would return and live the same miserable lives they always lived...along with the many millions who stayed.

So no, we are not making a mistake. We are ceasing the relentless inflow of an unskilled, low ability, large family dependency underclass class. Americans need to take care of their own, rather than prioritize care for the rest of the world.

maxparrish said:

First, asylum is not, and cannot, be a generic do-good policy of permitting anyone in the world to settle in the US simply because they face hardship and an increased risk of death,

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It's not, never has been. Why start with a strawman. Who could read on?

independentusa said:

AH, but Trump has decided we are "full" and can take no more asylum seekers, sending many of them back to their deaths in countries with little government and full of gangs that are ten times worse than any gang here in the US. So comparing sending Jews back to Germany those many years ago and asylum seekers now seems to be very similar. For many in both groups, going back means death at the hands of the people in control of their countries. So instead of winnowing the true asylum seekers from those who just want a better life is too hard for us stupid Americans. I guess you do not have a good opinion of our capabilities.

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How many should we take?

apdst said:

How many should we take?

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My question to you instead is who we should send back to their deaths. I do not want to choose, but if you do, then go for it.

independentusa said:

My question to you instead is who we should send back to their deaths. I do not want to choose, but if you do, then go for it.

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Should we take a million? Five million? Ten million? How many?

independentusa said:

Voyage of the St. Louis | The Holocaust Encyclopedia
Before we entered WWII the St Louis, a ship full of Jews tried to land in the US and several other countries. We refused them asylum because they had no visa's or security clearances. In the end, 240 of them died in the German concentration camps. Not the best thing this country has ever done as we already knew how the German's were treating the German Jews. So is history repeating itself with the people fleeing the Central American countries that are trying to reach the US and safety. I guess it is like the old saying, if we do not learn from history we are bound to repeat it.

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Yes, except with Kris Kobach wanting to build camps for them, we are reminding me more of the other side.

apdst said:

Should we take a million? Five million? Ten million? How many?

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How about six?

independentusa said:

Voyage of the St. Louis | The Holocaust Encyclopedia
Before we entered WWII the St Louis, a ship full of Jews tried to land in the US and several other countries. We refused them asylum because they had no visa's or security clearances. In the end, 240 of them died in the German concentration camps. Not the best thing this country has ever done as we already knew how the German's were treating the German Jews. So is history repeating itself with the people fleeing the Central American countries that are trying to reach the US and safety. I guess it is like the old saying, if we do not learn from history we are bound to repeat it.

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You are comparing Jews fleeing extermination who wanted asylum, with the people of central America who are trying to game our system by seeking asylum?

Good lord.

.

Grim17 said:

You are comparing Jews fleeing extermination who wanted asylum, with the people of central America who are trying to game our system by seeking asylum?

Good lord.

.

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They're animals, aren't they?

More evidence that suggests we are more like the other side in this scenario.

j brown's body said:

How about six?

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Six people, or six million?

Deuce said:

The situation in Honduras is absolutely comparable.

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So the entire nation of Honduras has a legitimate claim to be granted asylum here? There are a lot of other countries in the third world that are just as bad or worse. Should they all be allowed to emigrate here as asylum seekers as well? You know we are talking billions of people right?

independentusa said:

Voyage of the St. Louis | The Holocaust Encyclopedia
Before we entered WWII the St Louis, a ship full of Jews tried to land in the US and several other countries. We refused them asylum because they had no visa's or security clearances. In the end, 240 of them died in the German concentration camps. Not the best thing this country has ever done as we already knew how the German's were treating the German Jews. So is history repeating itself with the people fleeing the Central American countries that are trying to reach the US and safety. I guess it is like the old saying, if we do not learn from history we are bound to repeat it.

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Yes, that IS what we're doing.
We let the stupid people run the country again. We have to stop doing that.

j brown's body said:

They're animals, aren't they?

More evidence that suggests we are more like the other side in this scenario.

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My statement was absolutely clear... Putting words in my mouth to paint me as some kind of racist, earns you one the following:

ecofarm said:

It's not, never has been. Why start with a strawman. Who could read on?

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Some who had the intelligence to understand the difference between a straw man, and a statement of first principle could read on. When any poster suggests that the operative principle of 'a risk of violence or death' is similar for 240 refugees from the holocaust as it is for 100,000 per month hitting the southern border and applying for asylum then principled rebuttal is necessary: if 240 equals 100K a month (1.2 million a year) why not legitimize the acceptance of 5 or 10 million a month?

Therefore, asylum is not, and cannot, be a generic do-good policy of permitting anyone in the world to settle in the US simply because they face hardship and an increased risk of death, it is (or should be) a policy of limited protection in certain circumstances that DO NOT affect or harm the American citizenry. In short: the comparison he made between 240 Jews and 1.2 million asylum seekers is an insufficient one, it does NOT take into account the well being or harm to the American citizen as a factor.

Got it?

maxparrish said:

Some who had the intelligence to understand the difference between a straw man, and a statement of first principle could read on.

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Then your statement of principle was status quo and that ends your argument.

washunut said:

Pretty ignorant to compare sending folks back to a holocaust to an open border policy for our nation. We still have an asylum policy for people who truly in harms way.

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Pretty ignorant - I mean dishonest - to pretend that a lot of these asylum seekers aren't facing likely death at home, generally through drug gangs and the like. It may not be as dire for them as for Jews in the holocaust, but that's only saying so much in many of their situations.

The entire GOP stance on immigration is based on the premise that they're all lying. It is a disgusting premise.

ecofarm said:

Then your statement of principle was status quo and that ends your argument.

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As someone who confesses that he didn't read beyond of the first point in my original post, your claim about the whole of the argument amounting to the status quo is more than silly, its faithless prattle.

Should you finish reading my entire first post argument (you know, like points two and three, and the closing paragraph) and actually have a cogent point I'll be happy to reply. Till then, there is no pointing in my chasing insincere and changing bait.

maxparrish said:

actually have a cogent point I'll be happy to reply. Till then, there is no pointing in my chasing insincere and changing bait.

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Ditto.

Deuce said:

The situation in Honduras is absolutely comparable.

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That is just ignorant. Who exactly is being sent to gas chambers in Honduras. When you get to high school hopefully they will teach about went on.