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Has Trump moved the line you have to cross to commit obstruction?

independentusa

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Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.
You mean dastardly obstructing justice by allowing the Mueller investigation to go on interminably without regard to the 4th Amendment?
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.

Yes, though opponents will say Hillary did no different.

This hyper-partisanship we're seeing in this country is slowly shoveling more and more power into the hands of our elected officials. If Trump gets off scot free, then a liberal president can take full advantage of the precedents Trump is setting to the outrage of the right. Will the left minimize the abuses of a liberal president the way the right minimizes Trump's abuses, I wonder? Will the right remember their excusing Trump's behavior?
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.

Intimidating witnesses? Buying them off? Obstruction?

Do you have any evidence? You know...facts?

Speculation doesn't count.
 
Has Trump moved the line you have to cross to commit obstruction?
No.

/thread
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.

The line you have to cross depends on which party is moving it.

Can you imagine if this was Obama acting like the idiot Trump? Trumpkin heads would be exploding. LOL!
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.

Obstruction can be a vague concept. When you are the one in the spotlight, you have no obligation to help the investigators. That said there are rules and once crossed the efforts can be considered to be signs of guilt. Where some error is going those that are looking at them ammunition by opening their mouth and actually fueling suspension, and that further investigation is needed. Some never learn that under certain circumstances it is just best to STFU.....
 
No.

I don't think Trump obstructed justice. Trump is simply an idiot who felt an almost daily need to not look like a criminal.
 
Food for thought.

Obstruction of justice
Definition

18 U.S.C. § 1503 defines "obstruction of justice" as an act that "corruptly or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication, influences, obstructs, or impedes, or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede, the due administration of justice."

Overview

Someone obstructs justice when that person has a specific intent to obstruct or interfere with a judicial proceeding. For a person to be convicted of obstructing justice, that person must not only have the specific intent to obstruct the proceeding, but that person must know (1) that a proceeding was actually pending at the time; and (2) there must be a connection between the endeavor to obstruct justice and the proceeding, and the person must have knowledge of this connection.

§ 1503 applies only to federal judicial proceedings. Under 18 U.S.C. § 1505, however, a defendant can be convicted of obstruction of justice by obstructing a pending proceeding before Congress or a federal administrative agency. A pending proceeding could include an informal investigation by an executive agency.

Yes, Bill Barr’s Memo Really is Wrong About Obstruction of Justice
Yes, Bill Barr’s Memo Really is Wrong About Obstruction of Justice - Lawfare

Presidential obstruction of justice: The case of Donald J. Trump
Presidential obstruction of justice: The case of Donald J. Trump

Collusion Isn't a Specific Crime. But These Four Things Are Against the Law
Collusion is Not a Specific Crime. But These Four Things Are | Time

Naughty Or Nice: Is Trump's Hint Of A Gift Of A Pardon To Manafort Obstruction Of Justice?
Naughty Or Nice: Is Trump's Hint Of A Gift Of A Pardon To Manafort Obstruction Of Justice?
 
I suspect Trump could be up on an Obstruction charge for:
18 USC Ch. 73: OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE
From Title 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
§1510. Obstruction of criminal investigations
§1512. Tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant
§1513. Retaliating against a witness, victim, or an informant
§1514. Civil action to restrain harassment of a victim or witness

The many comments that Trump, a government official, Chief Executive has made after the Indictments of and during the Manafort and Cohen Trials directed at witnesses, defendants and prosecutors could well fall under the statutory descriptions above.

The questionable Obstructions involve instances where Trump's actions can simply be construed as an actual function of the Chief Executive. For example, without knowing Trump's State of Mind one really cannot make an Obstruction case out of firing Comey.
 
Trump and his syndicate has moved so many bars so low in some aspects and so high in some aspects the next president can actually shoot someone on 5th ave and we can say so what unemployment is down, stock markets are up, we're kidnapping babies so nothing can be done.
Remember all of this unless some Trump supporters get their wish and he's president for life.
This is our new norm everyone on both sides of the aisle better get used to it.
And oh yeah we need a new constitutional amendment no impeachment....what do we need it for? We'll never use it
 
You mean dastardly obstructing justice by allowing the Mueller investigation to go on interminably without regard to the 4th Amendment?

Interminably? The one that just ended? Typical ignorance.
 
Interminably? The one that just ended? Typical ignorance.
:lamo

Yeah...but didnt it SEEM like it dragged on forever? And did it end of its own accord or did Trump kill it?

SOrry man. I know you have delicate feeeeeeeeellleeeeerrrrrzzzzz today. Your big investigation that was supposed to serve you Trumps head on a platter turned out to be a big

D2TmaH-WwAIBNPD.jpg large.jpg
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.

Mueller cannot recommend charges of obstruction, nor would he, it is the job of the House. Do I believe Trump is guilty of obstruction, hell yes. Will he be held accountable, probably not. And that my friends sets the bar quite low.
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.

What is it that you believe he has done that rises to the level of obstruction?
 
Yes, though opponents will say Hillary did no different.

This hyper-partisanship we're seeing in this country is slowly shoveling more and more power into the hands of our elected officials. If Trump gets off scot free, then a liberal president can take full advantage of the precedents Trump is setting to the outrage of the right. Will the left minimize the abuses of a liberal president the way the right minimizes Trump's abuses, I wonder? Will the right remember their excusing Trump's behavior?

What are the precedents that concern you that you believe have been set by Trump?
 
The line you have to cross depends on which party is moving it.

Can you imagine if this was Obama acting like the idiot Trump? Trumpkin heads would be exploding. LOL!

You mean like if Obama shut down companies for not hiring Union Labor by weaponizing the DOJ to support political allies?

Eliminating First Amendment Rights of political opponents by weaponizing the IRS?

Interfering in the Election Process of the US by weaponizing the FBI to attack political opponents?

Yeah, we dodged a bullet on that one!
 
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Obstruction can be a vague concept. When you are the one in the spotlight, you have no obligation to help the investigators. That said there are rules and once crossed the efforts can be considered to be signs of guilt. Where some error is going those that are looking at them ammunition by opening their mouth and actually fueling suspension, and that further investigation is needed. Some never learn that under certain circumstances it is just best to STFU.....

It sounds like you are saying that no evidence of obstruction is needed to convict.

If anyone has a "feeling" that some guy meant one thing when he said something with an entirely different meaning, then he's guilty. But only if that guy is Trump or a Trump supporter.

Go it!
 
I suspect Trump could be up on an Obstruction charge for:
18 USC Ch. 73: OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE
From Title 18—CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
§1510. Obstruction of criminal investigations
§1512. Tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant
§1513. Retaliating against a witness, victim, or an informant
§1514. Civil action to restrain harassment of a victim or witness

The many comments that Trump, a government official, Chief Executive has made after the Indictments of and during the Manafort and Cohen Trials directed at witnesses, defendants and prosecutors could well fall under the statutory descriptions above.

The questionable Obstructions involve instances where Trump's actions can simply be construed as an actual function of the Chief Executive. For example, without knowing Trump's State of Mind one really cannot make an Obstruction case out of firing Comey.

It seems odd that all of this obstruction did not in any instance impact any action of any investigator or prosecutor at any time, in any way.

Isn't there any requirement under law that for obstruction to occur, obstruction must, at some level in some way, have occurred?

Or is this more like colluuuuuuuuuuuuuion? All whackaddodles need as proof is for some other whackadoodle to say the word out loud?
 
Trump and his syndicate has moved so many bars so low in some aspects and so high in some aspects the next president can actually shoot someone on 5th ave and we can say so what unemployment is down, stock markets are up, we're kidnapping babies so nothing can be done.
Remember all of this unless some Trump supporters get their wish and he's president for life.
This is our new norm everyone on both sides of the aisle better get used to it.
And oh yeah we need a new constitutional amendment no impeachment....what do we need it for? We'll never use it

Are you talking about anything that actually happened in the real world?

Link?
 
Interminably? The one that just ended? Typical ignorance.

LOL! I love it!

I have to admit, it sure seemed interminable. I watched a few minutes of The View once. THAT seemed interminable, also. It also ended. At least for me...

I thank God I had the remote control.

Joy Behar. Is there anything she doesn't know?

 
Mueller cannot recommend charges of obstruction, nor would he, it is the job of the House. Do I believe Trump is guilty of obstruction, hell yes. Will he be held accountable, probably not. And that my friends sets the bar quite low.

What exactly has he done to obstruct anything?

As always, he is playing chess in a game of chess. His opponents are playing tiddlywinks in a game of chess and wondering why he keeps beating them.

Letting these inept morons do what they want to do is giving him everything he needs to beat them. He sees it. They, and you, don't.

Under his guidance, the US is creating jobs, raising wages, cutting taxes and increasing personal wealth.

His opponents proudly reject these things and are working against him.

Do the math. Spoiler alert: Here's the math: 306 to 232.
 
Trump and his cronies are out there telling the nation that what he has done is not obstruction, but fighting as he has always done to save his presidency. If you go by what he and his cronies are saying, that it is perfectly legal to do what you need to defend yourself including intimidating witnesses or buying them off are just trying to save yourself. Trump basically is saying that there is no longer obstruction in doing what is needed to save yourself from prosecution, which definitely moves the line you have to cross to commit obstruction to a place it has never been before.

The president can do what he wants, if enough people support him. This is especially true if those people are a majority of the nation’s whites.

As we saw in the previous two elections, whites have an institutional advantage: Senate, electoral college and SCOTUS.
 
It sounds like you are saying that no evidence of obstruction is needed to convict.

If anyone has a "feeling" that some guy meant one thing when he said something with an entirely different meaning, then he's guilty. But only if that guy is Trump or a Trump supporter.

Go it!

Seems like the auto spell check sliced and diced me there.
 
Let me know when Trump destroys evidence subpoenaed by Congress and then destroys hard drives and devices to further make sure it can't be recovered. That is a textbook definition of obstruction of justice.
 
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