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I support transgenders...

noonereal

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I support transgenders but have we lost our freakin minds?

We allow men to compete as women because they identify as a women?

WTF?

Elite sport is becoming a platform to target the trans community

Tennis champion Martina Navratilova recently called the participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions “insane” and “cheating”. And she is right.
 
Anyone that thinks otherwise is stupid. There's no way to make it sound nicer or sugar coat. If you think that trans women should participate in women's sports you are stupid.
 
Norm McDonald rips on the situation.



Hey, A guy told me that, I dunno if you ever heard this, Bruce Jennar is gonna go back maybe to being a man. Did you hear that? Thats an odddddd thing. Because I can remember him, of course, as a woman. So its hard for me to picture what he'd even look like.

I remember, because I'm from Canada, so i remember he was in the 72 Olympics and he won the decathlon, you know, which is the best athlete in the world was a woman. We didnt know at the time because he kept it a secret. But I remember they put that metal around his.... Big.. Juicy tits. And that to me is when he should of, he should of just gone Im a lady! And that woulda been good for the LTGBTBTL.....
 
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I support transgenders but have we lost our freakin minds?

We allow men to compete as women because they identify as a women?

WTF?

Elite sport is becoming a platform to target the trans community

Tennis champion Martina Navratilova recently called the participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions “insane” and “cheating”. And she is right.

Red:
Did you read beyond the first sentence in the article you referenced?

From the article:

So why have we revisited this discussion in recent weeks? We are witnessing a broader movement against the trans community[:...R]esistance to LGBTI issues across the globe is being used by governments and religious leaders to uphold traditional values, and increased polarisation towards LGBTI rights [...]

athrooms used as a platform for division in the US [and] the Australian Christian Lobby suggested a “yes” vote for marriage equality would lead to boys wearing dresses to the detriment of society [are two examples of how sport [seems now to be] used as yet another tool to incite fear and hatred towards the trans community.

Some male commentators have raised concerns that the integrity of women’s sport is at risk. But where have these so-called male champions of change been in advancing women’s sport in recent years?

Another commonly-cited issue is that men might identify as women to reap rewards in competition. There have been no reported cases of men transitioning to women to earn money and dominate podiums. It is simply a myth.

[...]

UK research also found, after reviewing a series of trans policies in elite sport: "the majority of these policies were unfairly discriminating against transgender people, especially transgender females."

If we are to start scrutinising the ethics and integrity around cheating and enforcing a level playing field, there are many other places we could start[:]
- Match fixing,
- illegal gambling markets,
- substance abuse,
- corruption,
- issues around ball tampering,
- match fixing at various levels of tennis,
- doping within various sporting codes,
- salary cap breaches...at the elite level,
- [the] disproportionate allocation of funding and resources compared to men’s sport,
- a gross lack of media coverage, and
- [pay parity, relative to men, for women athletes].


Based on the research referenced, Martina's and your stance isn't supported by quantitative research:

Gooren and Bunck [G&B], [in "Transsexuals and competitive sports," explored] whether transgender people taking cross-sex hormone treatment can fairly compete in sport. [They] measured transgender people’s muscle mass (via [MRI]) and hormone levels (via urine and blood analyses) before and 1 year after cross-sex hormone treatment.

They found that 1 year after transgender male [(FTM trans)] individuals [received] cross-sex hormone treatment [(CSHT)],​
- [their] testosterone levels significantly increased and ... were within a cisgender male range,
- [their[ muscle mass had increased and was within the same range as transgender female individuals [(MTF trans) who'd not received CSHT].

In relation to [MTF trans] individuals, [G&B] found
- testosterone levels had significantly reduced to castration levels after 1 year of cross-sex hormone treatment[:]
- muscle mass ... reduced after 1 year of [CSHT].
- muscle mass remained significantly greater than in [FTM trans] individuals...who had not [received CSHT].

[G&B] concluded [FTM trans] individuals are likely to be able to compete without an athletic advantage 1-year post-cross-sex hormone treatment. To a certain extent, this also applies to [MTF trans] individuals.

...Many, but not all, [MTF trans] individuals [receive] testosterone [(T)] blockers to help them to reach cisgender female [T] levels, when administration of oestrogen alone [inadequately lowers T] levels. This [matters] if the person aims to undergo [sex-change] surgery, as [such procedures require] 6 months of [T] suppression. However, if [MTF trans folks eschew] surgery or [having] their [T] blocked to cisgender female levels ..., their [T] levels will be above cisgender female levels. Differentiating not only between those taking cross-sex hormones and not taking cross-sex hormones, but also [MTF trans] individuals taking [T] blockers, may be necessary when discussing an athletic advantage.

Given the aforementioned findings, a rational, simple and actionable solution is for sports associations to effect participation criteria based on whether a trans person receives CSHT.
  • MTF trans who do --> Compete as women
  • MTF trans who don't --> Compete as men
  • FTM trans who do --> Compete as men
  • FTM trans who don't --> Compete as women
 
I do hear more and more examples of this happening all the time. It's a very weird problem. It's also something that pure logic doesn't have a quick answer for.

These women have a distinct advantage over the other women in the contest. They physically have the musculature, coordination and other advantages evolution gave to men over countless generations of men being hunters and gatherers and women doing other things. Its why sports generally get divided by gender. If there were a reasonable way to level the playing field, it could be used in general practice and have unisex sports.

It's a tough one, though, because they have the right to be treated as women even if you disagree about the science of it or reasoning or what have you. I really hope we don't get derailed on that point too badly.

Now what do you do with that? Make them compete with the men because of the physical advantages they hold or let them compete with the women because that is where they believe they belong?

To me, I would say the deciding factor should be what the reward is for winning. If there is money, contracts, or any significant reward involved, I say we have to go with what is fair to the most people and make them compete with the people who have the same advantages they do. If it's vanity or attention or a worthless trophy, let them compete where they believe they belong. Maybe in the latter case, their win can come with an asterisk by their name.

I'm not a huge sports guy and I certainly don't put a lot of time into watching women's sports. This isn't something I feel too strongly about, just like any other problems in the same group, but it's interesting to me. I don't consider it a matter of someone doing something wrong or bad, but it has the same effect as cheating or taking drugs.
 
Based on the research referenced, Martina's and your stance isn't supported by quantitative research:

WTF???????

It most certainly is!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trans women have male chromosomes, fact, qualitative.

Fact, this gives them more height, strength and speed. 12% on average more if memory serves me correct.

Honest, what on earth are you talking about? My guess is that you read into my posts something I did not say, believe or address. Because what I actually said IS supported by science.
 
WTF???????

It most certainly is!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trans women have male chromosomes, fact, qualitative.

Fact, this gives them more height, strength and speed. 12% on average more if memory serves me correct.

Honest, what on earth are you talking about? My guess is that you read into my posts something I did not say, believe or address. Because what I actually said IS supported by science.

From the OP:
The assertion Martina made is:​
"The participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions 'insane' and 'cheating”'.​

You concurred with her:​
"And she is right."

My post refutes the following element of Martina's remark: "The participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions [is] "cheating."

I refuted the legitimacy of that assertion by citing the Gooren and Bunck study referenced by the article from which YOU took Martina's remark.


  1. Based on that study's findings, the mere fact that an athlete is an MTF trans provides no competitive edge.
    Gooren and Bunck [G&B], [in "Transsexuals and competitive sports," explored] whether transgender people taking cross-sex hormone treatment can fairly compete in sport. [They] measured transgender people’s muscle mass (via [MRI]) and hormone levels (via urine and blood analyses) before and 1 year after cross-sex hormone treatment.

    They found that 1 year after transgender male [(FTM trans)] individuals [received] cross-sex hormone treatment [(CSHT)],​
    - [their] testosterone levels significantly increased and ... were within a cisgender male range,
    - [their[ muscle mass had increased and was within the same range as transgender female individuals [(MTF trans) who'd not received CSHT].

    In relation to [MTF trans] individuals, [G&B] found
    - testosterone levels had significantly reduced to castration levels after 1 year of cross-sex hormone treatment[:]
    - muscle mass ... reduced after 1 year of [CSHT].
    - muscle mass remained significantly greater than in [FTM trans] individuals...who had not [received CSHT].

    [G&B] concluded [FTM trans] individuals are likely to be able to compete without an athletic advantage 1-year post-cross-sex hormone treatment. To a certain extent, this also applies to [MTF trans] individuals.

    ...Many, but not all, [MTF trans] individuals [receive] testosterone [(T)] blockers to help them to reach cisgender female [T] levels, when administration of oestrogen alone [inadequately lowers T] levels. This [matters] if the person aims to undergo [sex-change] surgery, as [such procedures require] 6 months of [T] suppression. However, if [MTF trans folks eschew] surgery or [having] their [T] blocked to cisgender female levels ..., their [T] levels will be above cisgender female levels. Differentiating not only between those taking cross-sex hormones and not taking cross-sex hormones, but also [MTF trans] individuals taking [T] blockers, may be necessary when discussing an athletic advantage.​
    Therefore , provided s/he receives CSHT appropriate to his/her target sex, as an MTF trans person does not constitute cheating.
  2. AFAIK:Therefore an MTF trans athlete's status as such doesn't constitute cheating, nor does it inspire such athletes to cheat.
    • The rules of no sport designate that "being an MTF trans person" constitutes cheating or any form of rules violation; thus, MTF trans athletes are not cheating.
    • MTF trans athletes do not represent themselves as cisgender athletes; thus they aren't cheating by way of misrepresenting the fact of their trans status.
    • MTF trans athletes do not take actions to alter their competitors' ability to participate.

      (If you know any of the above three bulleted assertions to be preponderantly inaccurate, please cite the methodologically sound research that shows so.)
Point #1 above shows there is no physiological advantage associated with being an MTF trans athlete. Line #2 asserts "presumption of innocence" behavioral traits that, absent proof to the contrary, it's reasonable to accept as true. Given points 1 and 2, the unqualified claim "participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions [is] 'cheating'" is false.

Now what are you going to say? That the above -- like the article you cited and the research articles it references -- is too long and you won't read it? It won't surprise me if you do, for it appears you didn't read my earlier post and you concurred with Martina's unqualified assertion.
 
From the OP:
The assertion Martina made is:​
"The participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions 'insane' and 'cheating”'.​

You concurred with her:​
"And she is right."

My post refutes the following element of Martina's remark: "The participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions [is] "cheating."

I refuted the legitimacy of that assertion by citing the Gooren and Bunck study referenced by the article from which YOU took Martina's remark.


  1. Based on that study's findings, the mere fact that an athlete is an MTF trans provides no competitive edge.
    Gooren and Bunck [G&B], [in "Transsexuals and competitive sports," explored] whether transgender people taking cross-sex hormone treatment can fairly compete in sport. [They] measured transgender people’s muscle mass (via [MRI]) and hormone levels (via urine and blood analyses) before and 1 year after cross-sex hormone treatment.

    They found that 1 year after transgender male [(FTM trans)] individuals [received] cross-sex hormone treatment [(CSHT)],​
    - [their] testosterone levels significantly increased and ... were within a cisgender male range,
    - [their[ muscle mass had increased and was within the same range as transgender female individuals [(MTF trans) who'd not received CSHT].

    In relation to [MTF trans] individuals, [G&B] found
    - testosterone levels had significantly reduced to castration levels after 1 year of cross-sex hormone treatment[:]
    - muscle mass ... reduced after 1 year of [CSHT].
    - muscle mass remained significantly greater than in [FTM trans] individuals...who had not [received CSHT].

    [G&B] concluded [FTM trans] individuals are likely to be able to compete without an athletic advantage 1-year post-cross-sex hormone treatment. To a certain extent, this also applies to [MTF trans] individuals.

    ...Many, but not all, [MTF trans] individuals [receive] testosterone [(T)] blockers to help them to reach cisgender female [T] levels, when administration of oestrogen alone [inadequately lowers T] levels. This [matters] if the person aims to undergo [sex-change] surgery, as [such procedures require] 6 months of [T] suppression. However, if [MTF trans folks eschew] surgery or [having] their [T] blocked to cisgender female levels ..., their [T] levels will be above cisgender female levels. Differentiating not only between those taking cross-sex hormones and not taking cross-sex hormones, but also [MTF trans] individuals taking [T] blockers, may be necessary when discussing an athletic advantage.​
    Therefore , provided s/he receives CSHT appropriate to his/her target sex, as an MTF trans person does not constitute cheating.
  2. AFAIK:Therefore an MTF trans athlete's status as such doesn't constitute cheating, nor does it inspire such athletes to cheat.
    • The rules of no sport designate that "being an MTF trans person" constitutes cheating or any form of rules violation; thus, MTF trans athletes are not cheating.
    • MTF trans athletes do not represent themselves as cisgender athletes; thus they aren't cheating by way of misrepresenting the fact of their trans status.
    • MTF trans athletes do not take actions to alter their competitors' ability to participate.

      (If you know any of the above three bulleted assertions to be preponderantly inaccurate, please cite the methodologically sound research that shows so.)
Point #1 above shows there is no physiological advantage associated with being an MTF trans athlete. Line #2 asserts "presumption of innocence" behavioral traits that, absent proof to the contrary, it's reasonable to accept as true. Given points 1 and 2, the unqualified claim "participation of transgender women in elite female sporting competitions [is] 'cheating'" is false.

Now what are you going to say? That the above -- like the article you cited and the research articles it references -- is too long and you won't read it? It won't surprise me if you do, for it appears you didn't read my earlier post and you concurred with Martina's unqualified assertion.

OMG, are you seriously going to tell us that there is no physical advantage in being born male?

That is absurd.

chemical castration does not make one a women.

Are you going to tell me that all the men with prostate cancer that undergo hormone therapy are women?


your post is clear: muscle mass ... reduced after 1 year of [CSHT].
- muscle mass remained significantly greater

but even so, it is more than just muscle mass as I had explained.
 
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