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Student Loans: Trump wants colleges to have skin in student loan debt game

Chomsky said:
Publicly financed community college is such a no brainer, I'm at a loss to understand why it's not implemented.

I'm a huge fan of community colleges. They might not be for everybody, but the are the right fit for many. They're local, small, easy to navigate, and a helluva' good value!
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What you describe exists in Quebec, it is called CEGEP. Instead of Grade 12 they go to CEGEP for two years.
 
Good4Nothin said:
So true, and so sad. It is a giant scam. Based on the myth that a college degree increases your earning potential and makes you middle class. NO. Being middle class (or higher) increases your earning potential and makes you more likely to have a college degree (reverse causality).

It's similar to the real estate scam that caused the financial collapse. Owning a home makes you middle class. NO. Being middle class makes you more able to own a home.

Anyway, thank you Trump for having some common sense. How come our brilliant law professor president never thought of anything like this?
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Having a college degree DOES increase your earning potential. How can you BE middle class without having a middle class income? It's not conferred upon you because of your parents. You have to do it yourself.
 
Carjosse said:
By moving most of the cost of administration to the state it becomes public interest, the state government has motivation to control costs or at the very least more transparent. And by reducing the money available to private universities they will be forced to cut costs to attract students away from the public system.
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LOL.... when has the state government EVER been motivated to cut costs? Giving it access to a larger pool of less accountable money does NOT solve a bloating problem.

I mean.... that is like the number one thing they known to be reluctant to do xD government programs and administration is notorious for it's terrible efficiency and monetary decisions.




What you need to do, is cut University administration by 90%...... that's right.... 90%.... and you can even increase the amount of professors on payroll. And return to the times where the actual professors have to organize and administrate everything.
 
celticwar17 said:
LOL.... when has the state government EVER been motivated to cut costs? Giving it access to a larger pool of less accountable money does NOT solve a bloating problem.

I mean.... that is like the number one thing they known to be reluctant to do xD government programs and administration is notorious for it's terrible efficiency and monetary decisions.




What you need to do, is cut University administration by 90%...... that's right.... 90%.... and you can even increase the amount of professors on payroll. And return to the times where the actual professors have to organize and administrate everything.
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When they are trying to cut budgets cutting university administration is usually a key target, at least here because they are usually not union unlike most government employees so they are government employees you can easily get rid of to try and balance the budget. Also if the university is left up to itself to cut costs it will usually trim administration as well.
 
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Carjosse said:
I think this is more tackling the symptoms rather the problem. It doesn't solve the cost problem in the first place.
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The only problem is that taxpayers are left holding worthless notes from student loan debt. A liberal arts degree isn't exactly useless, but in the real world, it's not going to land you a job.
The most a liberal arts degree is going to do is give you the ability to ruminate on esoteric philosophical dilemmas like Euthyphro while flipping burgers at McDonalds. It's not an entirely useless endeavor, but certainly not something taxpayers should have to shoulder.
 
chuckiechan said:
Trump wants colleges to have ‘skin’ in student loan debt game | Fox Business



The idea here is that colleges are creating majors that create little or no employment income. But if you look at any college campus, there is loads of construction going on. Too many students are gong to college, and the college is trading loans for useless degrees and the taxpayers are stuck with the bill. Trump's idea is to have them partly responsible for the debt. The idea is that they will be more cognizant of the ability to earn a living and pay back the debt, rather than use these loans to buff up the construction budget.

Each time the loan cap is raises, tuition goes up. I wonder why.
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Wouldn't that essentially be forcing the college to lower the cost of the degree, or certain degrees?
 
Mason66 said:
Wouldn't that essentially be forcing the college to lower the cost of the degree, or certain degrees?
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No. It's like if you bought a car, and your parents co signed, but only for 25%. So if a student loan defaults, the school is on the hook for %25. Too many schools are farming student loans.
 
chuckiechan said:
Trump wants colleges to have ‘skin’ in student loan debt game | Fox Business



The idea here is that colleges are creating majors that create little or no employment income. But if you look at any college campus, there is loads of construction going on. Too many students are gong to college, and the college is trading loans for useless degrees and the taxpayers are stuck with the bill. Trump's idea is to have them partly responsible for the debt. The idea is that they will be more cognizant of the ability to earn a living and pay back the debt, rather than use these loans to buff up the construction budget.

Each time the loan cap is raises, tuition goes up. I wonder why.
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Just like in the mortgage bubble, many students are given rubber stamp loans when they really shouldn't have been given them in the first place. There has to be a reasonable expectation that these loans are going to repaid. If not, then the loans shouldn't be given.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Maybe the student loan scam caused tuition to rise. The colleges were getting millions of students who were paying 100%, thanks to the loans. No reason not to raise tuition, since the students had loans and therefore would and could pay any price.

A really well designed scam. I wonder if the universities somehow influenced the government to provide them this golden opportunity to scam students.
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Yup....Bingo....give the man his stuffed animal.

Turn the cost of college into an obligation spread over time (a loan or credit if you will) and then just keep pumping out that 4 year continuing education nonsense that suggests there is just no way to survive without one of these sheepskins and you are in the pink. Then keep making the prime schools more and more exclusive and Shazam...you end up with the uber-privileged deciding that their uber privilege is just not sufficient. They need to be in a class of ultra-uber-privileged.

There is no damned legit reason for the accelerated pace of the increased cost of a 4 year degree and there is also no damned reason for the quality of student counseling to still be the same hot mess it was when I went. "Oh just go to college my boy...you will figure it out later". Ah-huh. Now "later" means you have already $20k at least in the hole and you are not even near graduating yet. "Thanks for the counseling Mrs Callahan".

I hate to dump on my own this way...but this is all marketing folks and the increasing tendency for Americans to run around with their hair on fire 24/7 is not helping. At least I always stayed within the realm of tangible products with warranties and and actual value as opposed to intangibles with implied value where customers/clients can really end up chasing their tails.
 
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Carjosse said:
It also has the lowest tuition in the country at CAD$3000/year.
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I was going to make a joking comment to the affect of,

"Then there's McGill ... "

But being a Yank, unfamiliar with the intricacies of Canadian higher education, I quickly did a Google search on McGill's tuition. 3K? Is this true? Less than 3K, for in state (I assume "in province"), resident, tution? Annually?

If so - this is the deal of a lifetime, by American standards!
 
Chomsky said:
I was going to make a joking comment to the affect of,

"Then there's McGill ... "

But being a Yank, unfamiliar with the intricacies of Canadian higher education, I quickly did a Google search on McGill's tuition. 3K? Is this true? Less than 3K, for in state (I assume "in province"), resident, tution? Annually?

If so - this is the deal of a lifetime, by American standards!
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Yes, McGill is a public university so it it has to follow the cap like any other. And it is 8k for out-of-province students no matter where you come from in Canada. International students, like my American friends pay ludicrous amounts still though. Canada has very few private universities, and those that exist are not exactly good.
 
Carjosse said:
Yes, McGill is a public university so it it has to follow the cap like any other. And it is 8k for out-of-province students no matter where you come from in Canada. International students, like my American friends pay ludicrous amounts still though. Canada has very few private universities, and those that exist are not exactly good.
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I was not aware of the bolded. But McGill always had a decent reputation, as far as I'm aware.

I was on the campus a long time ago, visiting a student that was a friend of a friend. It made me a permanent fan of Montreal at a young age, so I then occasionally snuck Mt. Tremblant into my Ski Bum days ...
 
jnug said:
Yup....Bingo....give the man his stuffed animal.

Turn the cost of college into an obligation spread over time (a loan or credit if you will) and then just keep pumping out that 4 year continuing education nonsense that suggests there is just no way to survive without one of these sheepskins and you are in the pink. Then keep making the prime schools more and more exclusive and Shazam...you end up with the uber-privileged deciding that their uber privilege is just not sufficient. They need to be in a class of ultra-uber-privileged.

There is no damned legit reason for the accelerated pace of the increased cost of a 4 year degree and there is also no damned reason for the quality of student counseling to still be the same hot mess it was when I went. "Oh just go to college my boy...you will figure it out later". Ah-huh. Now "later" means you have already $20k at least in the hole and you are not even near graduating yet. "Thanks for the counseling Mrs Callahan".

I hate to dump on my own this way...but this is all marketing folks and the increasing tendency for Americans to run around with their hair on fire 24/7 is not helping. At least I always stayed within the realm of tangible products with warranties and and actual value as opposed to intangibles with implied value where customers/clients can really end up chasing their tails.
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Ok, all true. But why didn't any president before Trump try to do anything about it? This has been going on for many years.
 
Moderate Right said:
Just like in the mortgage bubble, many students are given rubber stamp loans when they really shouldn't have been given them in the first place. There has to be a reasonable expectation that these loans are going to repaid. If not, then the loans shouldn't be given.
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They know the loans will be repaid, because that's the law. Clever scam.
 
Chomsky said:
<b>Being middle class (or higher) increases your earning potential and makes you more likely to have a college degree (reverse causality).</b>

You lost me here, with the bolded. Are you saying first one lands a middle-class job, then they earn their degree?
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No I didn't say that. A middle class person is more likely to get a college degree, because they (or their parents) can afford it. A middle class person is also more likely to be successful (with or without a degree).

Reverse causality. Typical logical error, successfully used again to scam the public.

I remember, before 2008, when financial advisors were saying everyone should buy house, because that gives you financial security. NO. Financial security allows you to buy a house.

Same with the darned student loans.

By the way, I got advanced degrees without ever paying for tuition. There are various ways you can do that. But now students just go ahead and take out loans, because they're getting horrible advice. It makes me angry, even though it never affected me or anyone I know well.
 
Good4Nothin said:
Ok, all true. But why didn't any president before Trump try to do anything about it? This has been going on for many years.
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Well he hasn't done anything yet has he. He has yet to present a meaningful Infrastructure program in over two years and THAT is a real problem in this country. So to be honest I don't expect ANYTHING is real any longer in TrumpWorld until I actually see the ink drying on the paper.

As for why nobody has been doing anything, if I had to guess, years of neglect, ignorance, greed and passing the buck. Lets not make believe Betsy the Beast knows anything.

We had a few years of for profit colleges ripping off students left and right. The Lobbyists for those institutions including the aforementioned Betsy liked being able to rope kids in and have them pay with borrowed money. In fact they liked it just fine.

We have been for far too long trying to force feed this whole higher education via keyboard thing and there are a number of reasons why we have been trying to push on that particular rope for so long. Remember we have had a few years of some institutions of "higher education" going broke. However, I saw no evidence of anybody actually trying to figure out why institutions were going broke while the cost of an education was going through the ceiling.

Trump's idea is certainly worth investigating. But as the recent consultant pay a fee to assure admission scam points out, while our Universities and Colleges are still in the main very good to excellent institutions of learning, the business underpinnings and financial structure behind them is crap. Lets not even get started on those topics as they relate to college athletics. IMO, the whole thing needs to be analyzed and reviewed with a mind to a fix. But don't let Betsy get anywhere near it. Analysis is not her strong point. Frankly I have not found her strong point yet.
 
jnug said:
Well he hasn't done anything yet has he. He has yet to present a meaningful Infrastructure program in over two years and THAT is a real problem in this country. So to be honest I don't expect ANYTHING is real any longer in TrumpWorld until I actually see the ink drying on the paper.

As for why nobody has been doing anything, if I had to guess, years of neglect, ignorance, greed and passing the buck. Lets not make believe Betsy the Beast knows anything.

We had a few years of for profit colleges ripping off students left and right. The Lobbyists for those institutions including the aforementioned Betsy liked being able to rope kids in and have them pay with borrowed money. In fact they liked it just fine.

We have been for far too long trying to force feed this whole higher education via keyboard thing and there are a number of reasons why we have been trying to push on that particular rope for so long. Remember we have had a few years of some institutions of "higher education" going broke. However, I saw no evidence of anybody actually trying to figure out why institutions were going broke while the cost of an education was going through the ceiling.

Trump's idea is certainly worth investigating. But as the recent consultant pay a fee to assure admission scam points out, while our Universities and Colleges are still in the main very good to excellent institutions of learning, the business underpinnings and financial structure behind them is crap. Lets not even get started on those topics as they relate to college athletics. IMO, the whole thing needs to be analyzed and reviewed with a mind to a fix. But don't let Betsy get anywhere near it. Analysis is not her strong point. Frankly I have not found her strong point yet.
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At least now the government is noticing the problem. No, we don't know if it will be solved, but noticing it is the first step. I just wonder why Obama never said a word about it in 8 years. Maybe Trump is an ahole, but he's a fearless ahole. And that may be what we need, someone who doesn't care what lobbyists want.
 
Good4Nothin said:
No I didn't say that. A middle class person is more likely to get a college degree, because they (or their parents) can afford it. A middle class person is also more likely to be successful (with or without a degree).

Reverse causality. Typical logical error, successfully used again to scam the public.

I remember, before 2008, when financial advisors were saying everyone should buy house, because that gives you financial security. NO. Financial security allows you to buy a house.

Same with the darned student loans.
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Alright, this is an interesting argument. But this argument by its very nature, implies we can't accurately decipher causality. So education may indeed be the causal correlator, but we just don't know.

Besides the usual stats correlation though, I can't reference anything I know of that would point to direct causality. So I won't push it in debate form. But the correlation still remains, and I have seen many people I personally know escape the hard-scrabble childhood in my old neighborhood, to become well paid professionals living in great neighborhoods and suburbs. But I also will admit I saw many reach the same economic & geographical success by starting businesses, too.

By the way, I got advanced degrees without ever paying for tuition. There are various ways you can do that. But now students just go ahead and take out loans, because they're getting horrible advice. It makes me angry, even though it never affected me or anyone I know well.
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I agree in spades. Education has to be approached like the purchase of any other product. It needs to be evaluated for appropriate use, quality, value, and - especially - Return On Investment. If you and your parents aren't made of money, better pick a damn good major.
 
Good4Nothin said:
At least now the government is noticing the problem. No, we don't know if it will be solved, but noticing it is the first step. I just wonder why Obama never said a word about it in 8 years. Maybe Trump is an ahole, but he's a fearless ahole. And that may be what we need, someone who doesn't care what lobbyists want.
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I don't think it went unnoticed at all. I just think we kept trying market solutions that were not based on research. They were just market solutions that suggested a lower cost option to a degree as a means to address these issues. However they were in the main market solutions in their purest sense, meaning they were chasing a buck and simply figured they could "market" their market solutions successfully.

I am personally not willing to accept any Trump program on face value. People have accepted his Wall nonsense on face value and IMO there is still no actual evidence that he wants the Wall for the Wall's sake and in fact every single thing he does in that regard more than suggests that he just wants the Wall Fight.

Further to the point, I would need to see the background analysis that supports what DonDon says he wants to do with regard to higher education and funding as I would insist upon that for any other proposal for higher education and funding as well. I should also point out that ANYTHING Trump University Don offers is suspect on that score alone.
 
Chomsky said:
I think it's a great idea.

Look, I'd like everyone to have an education, but not everyone is ready or qualified for higher education. It's not for everyone, simply because they've reached the age of majority.

But to that end, I'd really like to provide up to 2 years of publicly funded Community College. Let the trades kids get moving on a trade or business, and let the college bound only have to figure out how to pay for two years at the university, while being better prepared to succeed once they get there.
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Outside the box idea, extend high school 2 years but they would be elective. So those ready for college can move on, those not ready but want to go get essentially 2 years of college credits in a familiar environment before making the jump and those that don't plan on going to college can simply walk off with just the regular diploma.
 
Nap said:
Outside the box idea, extend high school 2 years but they would be elective. So those ready for college can move on, those not ready but want to go get essentially 2 years of college credits in a familiar environment before making the jump and those that don't plan on going to college can simply walk off with just the regular diploma.
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That doesn't do anything for the trades kids, though. Community College has a lot of vocational stuff, too.
 
Chomsky said:
That doesn't do anything for the trades kids, though. Community College has a lot of vocational stuff, too.
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There used to be things called apprenticeships where you not only got room and board, but even a little spending money to learn how to do stuff on the job. No taxpayer dollars required.

That probably won't sit very well with the minimum wage crowd, so that's not going to happen. I guess they'll just have to pay to get what could be paid for.
 
Chomsky said:
Alright, this is an interesting argument. But this argument by its very nature, implies we can't accurately decipher causality. So education may indeed be the causal correlator, but we just don't know.
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There are ways to decipher causality. That's what researchers spend their lives trying to do. The general public doesn't realize how complicated it can be, so they can be fooled.

Being raised in a family with successful parents can give several kinds of advantages. Only one of which is the ability to pay for college. For example, there could be inherited abilities and traits that make you more likely to succeed. And your parents might teach you to be responsible, and set a good example.

The student loan scammers just took one variable -- the college degree -- and convinced people that is the key to success. If the college degree is the only important factor, then it's worth going into debt. Except it obviously is not the only important factor. And a college degree will not make you successful if it's in art history (my first degree).


Chomsky said:
Besides the usual stats correlation though, I can't reference anything I know of that would point to direct causality. So I won't push it in debate form. But the correlation still remains, and I have seen many people I personally know escape the hard-scrabble childhood in my old neighborhood, to become well paid professionals living in great neighborhoods and suburbs. But I also will admit I saw many reach the same economic & geographical success by starting businesses, too.

I agree in spades. Education has to be approached like the purchase of any other product. It needs to be evaluated for appropriate use, quality, value, and - especially - Return On Investment. If you and your parents aren't made of money, better pick a damn good major.
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Some people believe in education for its own sake. You take courses in the arts and humanities, literature and history, etc. You become a better, wiser, person. That was sort of how I approached my undergraduate degree. I had no practical ideas about how to survive. I didn't realize I could have found all that information I learned in my classes at the public library, for free. (And now days you can find it online).

College has become a scam, unless you learn practical skills. In which case it's more like a trade school or professional school.
 
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