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Gov. Newsom orders halt to California’s death penalty

TheParser said:
1. On the contrary. It reassures him reelection and a place of honor in the bleeding hearts' hall of fame.

2. It shows that he cares nothing for the families of murdered victims.

3. It is furthermore an empty gesture. For all intents and purposes, everyone knows that those 700+ individuals on Death Row will never be executed.

4. The governor realizes that the state is fast a-changing, and he wants to kiss up to the activists.

5. Expect more murders as bad actors realize that there is no longer even a remote possibility that they will be executed.
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1. The voters voted against banning death penalty so... wrong
2. No it doesn't
3. Wrong again
4 & 5 is just you being emotional instead of rational.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
OK, yet the mission of a prison is far different for those who will not be returned to society (providing the minimum required for survival) and for those who will be (preparing them to lead more productive lives). Mixing the two populations, IMHO, is barbaric.
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Hey, I can see the point. So you're saying you acknowledge some may not be fit to return to society, but you'd like them segregated? Considering the carrying-out of sentencing is relatively fluid and changes over time, I'm not sure that's possible. And then putting them all together, would seem even worse for them. What would you do? Put them all in solitary confinement for their own protection.

But I really don't want to go down this rabbit hole, because my post was speaking specifically to state killing, and nothing more.
 
Chomsky said:
Hey, I can see the point. 1) So you're saying you acknowledge some may not be fit to return to society, but you'd like them segregated? 2) Considering the carrying-out of sentencing is relatively fluid and changes over time, I'm not sure that's possible. 3) And then putting them all together, would seem even worse for them. What would you do? Put them all in solitary confinement for their own protection.

But I really don't want to go down this rabbit hole, because my post was speaking specifically to state killing, and nothing more.
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1) Yes.

2) If the sentence changes then so does where it would be served.

3) Those that are never going to be released deserve like company and those that are going to be released deserve as much protection (separation?) from those never to be released as the rest of society does. I would not put them in solitary confinement (except upon request) as that, IMHO, is more barbaric than execution.
 
poweRob said:
Bold move. Could cost him politically.
Gov. Newsom orders halt to California’s death penalty

Gov. Gavin Newsom is declaring a moratorium on California’s death penalty Wednesday and granting reprieves to 737 condemned prisoners on the nation’s largest Death Row, calling capital punishment discriminatory and immoral.

In the process, he is ordering an end to prison officials’ struggle for more than a decade to devise lethal injection procedures that will pass muster in federal courts. Newsom also ordered an immediate shutdown of the state’s execution chamber at San Quentin prison, where the last execution was carried out in 2006.​
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Why order a shutdown of a chamber that hasn't operated for 13 years?
 
:shock:
Chomsky said:
There's no easy solutions for those instances when one is deemed unfit to be free in civil society. But I find the death penalty particularly abhorrent for two primary reasons:

1] Mistakes cannot be rectified; One cannot be brought back from the dead.

2] I do not believe we have the right to play God, to no immediate physical threat.
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Well how about that! We finally agree on something!:shock:
 
TurtleDude said:
Humble man-his father was the counsel for the mine workers-a big union back in the day. In the Democratic Party primary, the contenders were Col. John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum (who after losing the primary, beat the GOP Incumbent Taft in the post Watergate thrashing the GOP took in 76 when Carter won as well). Metzenbaum argued Glenn couldn't get union support and then Sargus Sr came out and said the UMWs were endorsing Glenn. That sewed it up for Glenn. I ran into Judge Sargus right after Clinton nominated him and I congratulated him on his nomination and he noted-well "Dad died before Senator Glenn could pay him back for his help so I lucked out". Lots of people I talked to think he was one of the three best US attorneys in that district in the last 50 years.
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Sorry, didn't realize you were still replying to me last night; I went offline and crashed out.

But,

John Glen was a childhood hero, of mine. Of course we're told to never meet our heroes, which may be good advice. You probably are more aware of his flaws and shortcomings than I, but he seemed like he indeed had the mythical Right Stuff.

Before there was the Apollo program, there was Mercury, Atlas, and Bell X1. Those men in those earlier programs were no less heroes and pioneers than the guys in Apollo. Anyone that wasn't fortunate enough to have been a youngster during that era, particularly an American youngster, cannot begin to fathom the excitement, pride and hope embodied in that era.

Despite Lederer & Burdick's "Ugly American", and the Viet 'Nam War, it was so easy to hold one's head-up high as an American. I'd do anything for us to re-capture that, and give it to my kids.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
1) Yes.

2) If the sentence changes then so does where it would be served.

3) Those that are never going to be released deserve like company and those that are going to be released deserve as much protection (separation?) from those never to be released as the rest of society does. I would not put them in solitary confinement (except upon request) as that, IMHO, is more barbaric than execution.
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You know the problem with you my friend, is that even when I don't necessarily agree with you, I must admit you often make good sense.

Hey, your solution is fair enough I guess. I'm not crazy about segregating subsets of prison population unless absolutely necessary, but I suppose being found otherwise eligible for the death penalty would already segregate that person into a unique category.
 
Mason66 said:
Why order a shutdown of a chamber that hasn't operated for 13 years?
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I don't think it's a shutdown but rather a stay if I'm not mistaken.
 
mrdeltoid said:
:shock:

Well how about that! We finally agree on something!:shock:
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We're fellow Americans, (and fellow human beings). Of course there will always be some commonality.

As Americans, I wish we'd work more on that, than what divides us. It's a shame that it often takes an existential threat to bring us together, but it is what it is.
 
poweRob said:
I don't think it's a shutdown but rather a stay if I'm not mistaken.
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I used the words from the OP.

"Newsom also ordered an immediate shutdown of the state’s execution chamber at San Quentin prison, where the last execution was carried out in 2006."
 
It won't cost Newsom anything. I'm sure he'll be praised by all his supporters. Whether this continues as the state becomes overrun with the homeless and illegal aliens is another matter. Then, again liberals can put up with lots of things, as long as they remain in someone else's neighborhood.
 
This is an interesting site. It shows all 737 inmates on California's death row with pictures, and what crimes they were convicted of.

These are the 737 inmates on California’s death row - Los Angeles Times

Just glancing at a few, and I see a guy who raped and murdered an 11 year old girl, another guy shot and killed 3 men in the head before setting fire to the building, a woman beat and tortured a woman she thought had robbed her, injecting her with battery acid...

The list is long and very gruesome. All I know is that I'm glad I'm not serving time in a california prison. Things are probably bad enough without releasing the worst of the worst into the general population.
 
Criminal Justice is basically rule by fear.


Make the consequences of committing an un-social act so terrible, people are too scared to contemplate doing them.


But people commit murders every day.


Prison doesn't deter reform criminals...not for the most part.


That is why, unlike most liberals, I support capital punishment and think that executions should be carried out in public by hanging.

I also believe that for lesser crimes public caning is a strong deterrent (and cheaper too).


Criminal Justice only works if people are s**t scared of the consequences of being caught.


I imagine I'm in a small minority with this and yes I do understand that innocent people have been sent to the gallows.


I also would abolish trial by jury as I think its inherently unsafe.
 
Rich2018 said:
Criminal Justice is basically rule by fear.


Make the consequences of committing an un-social act so terrible, people are too scared to contemplate doing them.
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This nonsense of locking people up and throwing the key away is not working. It might be time to take a more medieval approach to crime. They didn't really have prisons like we do today. They were more like holding cells that were usually empty. When somebody was arrested. a trial would be held, and sentence was either a misdemeanor involving a day spent in the stocks, a small fine, or capital punishment. How much punishment before the execution depended on the severity of the crime. A simple chicken thief would be beheaded in the town square, while crimes against the state would involve a particular number of hours as well as method of torture before execution. The amount of time they would be held before carrying out the sentence depended entirely upon how long it would take for word to get out and the audience to gather. A good torture/execution could generate quite a lot of money for the locals. Brewers would make money, inns, restaurants, prostitutes... it was like hosting the superbowl!

For those who think this is a bit too barbaric, realize that these people on death row aren't there because they didnn't tip their server enough. They are in there for some truly horrific crimes that a civil society simply cannot put up with.
 
Bilgewater said:
This nonsense of locking people up and throwing the key away is not working. It might be time to take a more medieval approach to crime. They didn't really have prisons like we do today. They were more like holding cells that were usually empty. When somebody was arrested. a trial would be held, and sentence was either a misdemeanor involving a day spent in the stocks, a small fine, or capital punishment. How much punishment before the execution depended on the severity of the crime. A simple chicken thief would be beheaded in the town square, while crimes against the state would involve a particular number of hours as well as method of torture before execution. The amount of time they would be held before carrying out the sentence depended entirely upon how long it would take for word to get out and the audience to gather. A good torture/execution could generate quite a lot of money for the locals. Brewers would make money, inns, restaurants, prostitutes... it was like hosting the superbowl!

For those who think this is a bit too barbaric, realize that these people on death row aren't there because they didnn't tip their server enough. They are in there for some truly horrific crimes that a civil society simply cannot put up with.
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Wonderful logic. Submit your idea to the Super Bowl planners. There's got to be something better than the lame halftime shows we see each year.

What was it they used to say, that pickpockets did their best business at the public hanging of other pickpockets? How is it that the rest of the developed world manages to survive without executions and yet have lower homicide rates? Are Europeans, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis just better behaved?
 
Nickyjo said:
Wonderful logic. Submit your idea to the Super Bowl planners. There's got to be something better than the lame halftime shows we see each year.

What was it they used to say, that pickpockets did their best business at the public hanging of other pickpockets? How is it that the rest of the developed world manages to survive without executions and yet have lower homicide rates? Are Europeans, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis just better behaved?
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Let me know when you figure that one out.
 
Bilgewater said:
Let me know when you figure that one out.
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My guess is that their progressive policies produce greater distribution of wealth, less materialism, fewer guns, less use of prisons to solve problems. Lower violent crime results.
 
Nickyjo said:
My guess is that their progressive policies produce greater distribution of wealth, less materialism, fewer guns, less use of prisons to solve problems. Lower violent crime results.
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No need to guess because we can look at progressive policies in the united states. For example, I think you would admit that San Francisco is quite a progressive place. It's where Newsom was mayor, and now he's governor. Let's see.... San Francisco's tenderloin district has a median income of about 25k, whereas the mission district enjoys 100k + salaries.

No, it doesn't appear that progressive policies are very good at encouraging income parity. Guns? Well, there certainly are fewer guns in SF than in rural Trump county areas. However, since you are correlating gun ownership with violent crime results, you would have to work from the assumption that there is less violent crime in San Francisco than there is in the rest of the state.

Oh my! Did you know that the average for CA is 2,946 violent crimes per 100k, while SF with it's much tighter restrictions on gun ownership resulted in a whopping 6,883!
San Francisco, CA Crime Rates & Crime Map

You're batting .000 so far.
 
poweRob said:
I don't think he's overturning the vote. Just halting executions for now. They can be restarted at any time. At least that's how I read it.
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The people of California voted in favor of capital punishment 53% to 47%. Newsom ran on a platform that said he would not seek to overturn the outcome of the peoples vote. He is a liar plain and simple.
 
Chomsky said:
We're fellow Americans, (and fellow human beings). Of course there will always be some commonality.

As Americans, I wish we'd work more on that, than what divides us. It's a shame that it often takes an existential threat to bring us together, but it is what it is.
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Something that I loved about Tip and Reagan was they could sit down as fellow Americans, and as friends, disagree passionately on an ISSUE, discuss it, find common ground, shake hands and then have a drink and talk baseball or something. I miss those days terribly.😞
 
The left loves abortion, killing the innocent unborn but wants those who deserve termination to escape justice and die of old age on the taxpayers dime. Some people just need killing, period.
 
Bilgewater said:
No need to guess because we can look at progressive policies in the united states. For example, I think you would admit that San Francisco is quite a progressive place. It's where Newsom was mayor, and now he's governor. Let's see.... San Francisco's tenderloin district has a median income of about 25k, whereas the mission district enjoys 100k + salaries.

No, it doesn't appear that progressive policies are very good at encouraging income parity. Guns? Well, there certainly are fewer guns in SF than in rural Trump county areas. However, since you are correlating gun ownership with violent crime results, you would have to work from the assumption that there is less violent crime in San Francisco than there is in the rest of the state.

Oh my! Did you know that the average for CA is 2,946 violent crimes per 100k, while SF with it's much tighter restrictions on gun ownership resulted in a whopping 6,883!
San Francisco, CA Crime Rates & Crime Map

You're batting .000 so far.
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Really? People are stopped on the bridges or on the light rail BART and frisked for guns before they enter SF?

I wasn’t talking about differences between neighborhoods but between countries. The progressive policies of other countries have produced less income disparity within those countries, a greater safety net, fewer weapons and less crime, tho I assume other factors could be involved.

As to San Francisco, the Tenderloin has been a poor neighborhood for as long as I have lived in the area, a combination of an immigrant community and skid row. The Mission District used to be a poor community not too long ago as well, turning from Irish (before my time) to Latino, and now to techie rich.
 
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poweRob said:
Bold move. Could cost him politically.

Gov. Newsom orders halt to California’s death penalty

Gov. Gavin Newsom is declaring a moratorium on California’s death penalty Wednesday and granting reprieves to 737 condemned prisoners on the nation’s largest Death Row, calling capital punishment discriminatory and immoral.

In the process, he is ordering an end to prison officials’ struggle for more than a decade to devise lethal injection procedures that will pass muster in federal courts. Newsom also ordered an immediate shutdown of the state’s execution chamber at San Quentin prison, where the last execution was carried out in 2006.​
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I don't know the majority of Californian sentiments on the death penalty, but he certainly has my support.
 
Nickyjo said:
Really? People are stopped on the bridges or on the light rail BART and frisked for guns before they enter SF?

I wasn’t talking about differences between neighborhoods but between countries. The progressive policies of other countries have produced less income disparity within those countries, a greater safety net, fewer weapons and less crime, tho I assume other factors could be involved.

As to San Francisco, the Tenderloin has been a poor neighborhood for as long as I have lived in the area, a combination of an immigrant community and skid row. The Mission District used to be a poor community not too long ago as well, turning from Irish (before my time) to Latino, and now to techie rich.
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Yeah, you're comparing A and B. Sorry, but that doesn't work. You have to deal with your progressive policies vs. more conservative policies in the same country. Picking and choosing countries is moving the goal posts, and I won't let you do that.

As for checking for guns on the golden gate bridge, sorry, but you don't do that. So we can just throw that in the garbage dump of irrelevance. Unless, of course, that's what you're proposing...

Want to build a wall?

Sorry, but we are comparing progressive to conservative policies, and your progressive policies seem to suck major anal seepage.
 
Bilgewater said:
Yeah, you're comparing A and B. Sorry, but that doesn't work. You have to deal with your progressive policies vs. more conservative policies in the same country. Picking and choosing countries is moving the goal posts, and I won't let you do that.

As for checking for guns on the golden gate bridge, sorry, but you don't do that. So we can just throw that in the garbage dump of irrelevance. Unless, of course, that's what you're proposing...

Want to build a wall?

Sorry, but we are comparing progressive to conservative policies, and your progressive policies seem to suck major anal seepage.
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You are obviously missing the point of my argument. I was comparing countries. What San Francisco does is irrelevant.
 
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