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Thread: "I have a black friend...."

  1. #391
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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Again, I don't make excuses for Hillary, but I also don't use Hillary as an excuse for Trump winning. People who voted for Trump approved of Trump, and were excited to vote for him. You keep ignoring the fact that Trump excited his base and excited voters. Hillary excited nobody. And Trump made promises that connected with people, whereas, Hillary didn't really offer much of anything other than not being Trump.

    You really need to stop acting like the only reason Trump won is because Hillary is so bad. Trump won in the primaries, and he got more votes than anybody in the history of the GOP primary. He had real support. Hillary had soft support.
    I think you need to take a good look at Gallup. A full 25% of all Americans disliked both major party presidential candidates. They certainly weren't excited. 54% of all independents disliked or viewed both major party candidates unfavorably.

    One in Four Americans Dislike Both Presidential Candidates

    there's no doubt Trump had his fevered avid followers or supporters. What percentage of Americans were those?

    I proposed that Trump's excited supporters could be determined by the amount of people who viewed Trump Very Favorably. I'll leave out somewhat favorable, that means luke warm toward him or the feeling that he isn't exactly what we want, but better than Hillary. Just Very Favorably.

    Question 11 gives you that. 47% of Republicans, 20% of independents, 3% of Democrats.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...bReport_lv.pdf

    CNN exit polls provide the percentage of whom actually voted. 36% Democrat, 33% Republican 31% independent

    https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

    Math time. 1.08% Democrat, 15.51 Republican, 6.2% independents, 32.5% of all those who actually voted viewed Trump very favorably. You can put them in the excited pro Trump column. The rest of the 46% of the vote Trump received were the anti Clinton voters, 13.5% of the total vote or 29.3% of Trump's total votes received.

    I totally agree, Trump excited his base. Now his base was no where near enough for him to win. Making up approximately one third of the total electorate. This I don't think has changed. Only about a third of Americans today are avid Trumpers. I will also admit Hillary didn't excite her base like Trump did his. But who's fault was that? Certainly not Trump's or any of his supporters.

    My point is Trump didn't win because he excited voters, although he did his base. Hillary lost because independents disliked her more than they did Trump. With them, 54% disliking both candidates, it wasn't choosing a candidate they wanted to win. They choose a candidate they least wanted to lose. independents weren't excited at all about Trump. Well, 20% of them were, but that leaves 80% who weren't. You still had 12% of independents refuse to choose between the two major party candidates, they voted against both Trump and Clinton by casting a ballot for a third party candidate. Both Trump and Hillary turned off 9 million voters so much they were willing to vote for a candidate they probably never heard of, had no name recognition, no media coverage, no chance to win, no money, but their last names weren't Trump or Clinton.

    2016 was the anti election. More Americans voted against a candidate than for one. Hillary was really that bad, one can't win an election with just 33% of the total vote actually wanting you or Trump to become president. Other factors are present.
    Last edited by Perotista; 03-05-19 at 09:36 PM.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  2. #392
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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I think you need to take a good look at Gallup. A full 25% of all Americans disliked both major party presidential candidates. They certainly weren't excited. 54% of all independents disliked or viewed both major party candidates unfavorably.

    One in Four Americans Dislike Both Presidential Candidates

    there's no doubt Trump had his fevered avid followers or supporters. What percentage of Americans were those?

    I proposed that Trump's excited supporters could be determined by the amount of people who viewed Trump Very Favorably. I'll leave out somewhat favorable, that means luke warm toward him or the feeling that he isn't exactly what we want, but better than Hillary. Just Very Favorably.

    Question 11 gives you that. 47% of Republicans, 20% of independents, 3% of Democrats.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...bReport_lv.pdf

    CNN exit polls provide the percentage of whom actually voted. 36% Democrat, 33% Republican 31% independent

    https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

    Math time. 1.08% Democrat, 15.51 Republican, 6.2%, 32.5% of all those who actually voted viewed Trump very favorably. You can put them in the excited pro Trump column. The rest of the 46% of the vote Trump received were the anti Clinton voters, 13.5% of the total vote or 29.3% of Trump's total votes received.

    I totally agree, Trump excited his base. Now his base was no where near enough for him to win. Making up approximately one third of the total electorate. This I don't think has changed. I will also admit Hillary didn't excite her base like Trump did his. But who's fault was that? Certainly not Trump's or any of his supporters.

    My point is Trump didn't win because he excited voters, although he did his base. Hillary lost because independents disliked her more than they did Trump. With them, 54% disliking both candidates, it wasn't choosing a candidate they wanted to win. They choose a candidate they least wanted to lose. independents weren't excited at all about Trump. Well, 20% of them were, but that leaves 80% who weren't. You still had 12% of independents refuse to choose between the two major party candidates, they voted against both Trump and Clinton by casting a ballot for a third party candidate. Both Trump and Hillary turned off 9 million voters so much they were willing to vote for a candidate they probably never heard of, had no name recognition, no media coverage, no chance to win, no money, but their last names weren't Trump or Clinton.

    2016 was the anti election. More Americans voted against a candidate than for one. Hillary was really that bad, one can't win an election with just 33% of the total vote actually wanting you to become president. Other factors are presents.
    I have already addressed the swing voters and his base. Both liked his rhetoric and promises. Hillary didn't stand for much of anything, other than she wasn't Trump. Yes, her campaign was weak and deeply flawed. But you cannot say the reason Trump won is entirely because of Hillary.

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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Have you seen Trump's rallies? Have you seen Hillary's?

    Trump's rallies were really animated. He got people chanting to build walls, and lock people up. Some of rallies even looked violent. But nonetheless, the base was eating it up and loving the fan fair and entertainment.

    If Hillary held more rallies in those states with her pro-establishment, boring and empty talking points, it wouldn't have changed a thing.
    Maybe not. It's not provable since it never happened. But she at least could have tried. I personally think it would have for the reasons I stated. That's the problem I have with Hillary, she didn't try. At least she didn't give it her best shot. She lacked the fire in the belly to become president.

    I can guarantee you a Sanders or a Biden or almost any other Democrat sure wouldn't have let Trump own the campaign trail the Hillary let Trump own it. That was Hillary's own fault, he own doings or not doing.

    I don't know if you could call Trump charismatic, but he certainly could excite. Hillary couldn't, she lost. Our presidential elections are basically beauty contest. Obama, had charisma, McCain and Romney didn't. Obama won. G.W. Bush, I wouldn't call him charismatic, but he had a down home feeling, charm about him. He was more charismatic than the statue Gore and Kerry although not by much. Bill Clinton had charisma up the ying yang, G.H.W. Bush and Dole had none. Bill won. Reagan was more charismatic than either Carter or Mondale. He won. Carter like G.W. Bush really didn't have much charisma, more down home charm like G.W. when he beat the uncharismatic Ford and so on.

    Yes, what ever Trump had, he excited, Hillary was a ho hum wet mop. A lazy one at that. Want to win in 2020 and win easily, nominate a fresh young face with some charisma, ala Obama and Bill Clinton. Not a Hillary, Kerry, Gore. Nominate someone who appeals to independents, who doesn't turn them off. That's my advice.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal View Post
    Sorry, I'm not clear what your question is asking.

    I didn't know nationalists come in any other color other than white. I just Googled 'non-white nationalists' and came up blank.

    We have all kinds so I don't doubt they might exist, after all there's a handful of blacks in The Cult...
    That is probably because you misunderstand my use of the modifier. A Nationalist is a person that is sees the nation-state system as the best arrangement of the international order often based on the idea that geography and shared economic or civic values are unifiers. So, he opposes globalism and is skeptical of international treaties or other agreements. A white nationalist believes in a form of nation-state protectionism based on shared ethno-centric or racial lines as unifiers.
    My point was that with Trumpism American economic and cultural nationalists have been lying in bed with white nationalists as part of the same coalition. At some point they have to face the fact they exchanged vows and are now wedded. So how should we treat the married spouse of a racist who 'stands by her man?'

    Instead of looking up non-white nationalism to see if such a thing exists, you could try to google black nationalism. You will find a few more but again you may still need to distinguish between describing the race of the nationalist, and the unifying principals underpinning his or her ideology .
    Last edited by btthegreat; 03-05-19 at 11:21 PM.

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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Not to indulge the idiocy of the OP... I will tackle this topic.

    It's not that "I have a black friend...." is the issue. It's the believing that that one black friend is an exception to what black people are actually like, instead of being an example of the norm of what black people are like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    I'm a moderate.
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    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office.
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    He (Mueller) hasn't found any (collusion) and he won't find any.

  6. #396
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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    That is probably because you misunderstand my use of the modifier. A Nationalist is a person that is sees the nation-state system as the best arrangement of the international order often based on the idea that geography and shared economic or civic values are unifiers. So, he opposes globalism and is skeptical of international treaties or other agreements. A white nationalist believes in a form of nation-state protectionism based on shared ethno-centric or racial lines as unifiers.
    My point was that with Trumpism American economic and cultural nationalists have been lying in bed with white nationalists as part of the same coalition. At some point they have to face the fact they exchanged vows and are now wedded. So how should we treat the married spouse of a racist who 'stands by her man?'

    Instead of looking up non-white nationalism to see if such a thing exists, you could try to google black nationalism. You will find a few more but again you may still need to distinguish between describing the race of the nationalist, and the unifying principals underpinning his or her ideology .
    Gotcha and I agree. I know there's both white and black (however few there are) nationalists as opposed to your plain'ol 'nationalist'. All three are a step backward and destructive in the long run.

    Before the rise of Trumpism, back during the last Bush administration, I had thought we would never elect someone so clueless again. But now, jeez, I know I couldn't have been more wrong. I look back with admiration and respect at his presidency. He might not have been the smartest person in the room, but at least he knew it. And he knew the truth about nationalism...

    “We’ve seen nationalism distorted into nativism – forgotten the dynamism that immigration has always brought to America. We see a fading confidence in the value of free markets and international trade – forgetting that conflict, instability, and poverty follow in the wake of protectionism. We have seen the return of isolationist sentiments – forgetting that American security is directly threatened by the chaos and despair of distant places, where threats such as terrorism, infectious disease, criminal gangs and drug trafficking tend to emerge,” Bush said, speaking at a national forum on liberty hosted by the George W. Bush institute in New York City. “In all these ways, we need to recall and recover our own identity. Americans have a great advantage: To renew our country, we only need to remember our values.”

    The solution, Bush cautioned, was not for the U.S. to retreat internationally, but to retain the reins of leadership.”
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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal View Post
    Gotcha and I agree. I know there's both white and black (however few there are) nationalists as opposed to your plain'ol 'nationalist'. All three are a step backward and destructive in the long run.

    Before the rise of Trumpism, back during the last Bush administration, I had thought we would never elect someone so clueless again. But now, jeez, I know I couldn't have been more wrong. I look back with admiration and respect at his presidency. He might not have been the smartest person in the room, but at least he knew it. And he knew the truth about nationalism...

    “We’ve seen nationalism distorted into nativism – forgotten the dynamism that immigration has always brought to America. We see a fading confidence in the value of free markets and international trade – forgetting that conflict, instability, and poverty follow in the wake of protectionism. We have seen the return of isolationist sentiments – forgetting that American security is directly threatened by the chaos and despair of distant places, where threats such as terrorism, infectious disease, criminal gangs and drug trafficking tend to emerge,” Bush said, speaking at a national forum on liberty hosted by the George W. Bush institute in New York City. “In all these ways, we need to recall and recover our own identity. Americans have a great advantage: To renew our country, we only need to remember our values.”

    The solution, Bush cautioned, was not for the U.S. to retreat internationally, but to retain the reins of leadership.”
    I go back to Nixon and Reagan before Bush. Now they all look like statesmen worthy of Rushmore. This man is the most destructive force I have ever seen in that office. Generic nationalism is short-sighted. Ethnic or racial nationalism is a the cultural/ social equivalent of syphilis. Trumpism is a genetic mutation that should have been euthanized before it escaped from the lab.
    Last edited by btthegreat; 03-06-19 at 12:47 AM.

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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    Back to that cliched crap . Whether it is the work of a 'angry old white man' or a 13 year old Asian trans, you should be able to rebut the' mistake' with either reason or fact.

    noonreal, when you are empty, just admit it, or you could decide to say nothing at all.
    take personal responsibility is my heart felt advise to the Trumpets, the angry old white men.
    The more I get to know people the more I realize why Noah only let animals on the boat.

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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I have already addressed the swing voters and his base. Both liked his rhetoric and promises. Hillary didn't stand for much of anything, other than she wasn't Trump. Yes, her campaign was weak and deeply flawed. But you cannot say the reason Trump won is entirely because of Hillary.
    Okay, I'm saying she could have easily avoided defeat. Even with a ho hum campaign, her lack of fire in the belly, lacking a work ethic on the campaign trail, throw in the Sanders supporters, her inept campaign strategy, and much more. Still everything had to align perfectly for Trump to win. The earth, moon, sun, planets, stars and even galaxies.

    Hillary was indeed liked a bit more than Trump by Americans as a whole. Only 36% of all Americans had a favorable view of Trump vs. 38% for Hillary. This is what translated in Hillary's popular vote win. Her lack of attention to Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and even Florida is what caused her to lose in the electoral college.

    Why the Democrats would nominate about the only person alive that could have lost to Trump, I'll never understand. I'm not a Democrat, so I don't have to understand. I only hope the Democrats learned a valuable lesson from 2016, that is candidates matter. There was 9 million of us who voted third party against both major party candidates, please come up with a candidate we can vote for in 2020. We or most of those won't be voting for Trump, but nothing guarantees we'll be voting for the democratic candidate either. Learn from history, don't repeat its mistakes, please don't!

    Here's something to compare the 2016 major party favorable ratings among America as a whole. Look where Trump and Hillary stand. Right at the bottom. Trump must be the luckiest SOB around to have been matched up with Hillary.

    Highest to lowest favorable ratings of each major party presidential candidate.

    1956 Eisenhower 79%
    1960 JFK 75%
    1960 Nixon 74%
    1964 LBJ 71%
    1972 Nixon 66%
    1976 Carter 63%
    1956 Stevenson 61%
    1984 Reagan 61%
    1980 Reagan 59%
    1968 Nixon 59%
    1968 Humphrey 58%
    2008 Obama 58%
    2000 G.W. Bush 58%
    1976 Ford 58%
    2012 Obama 57%
    1996 Bill Clinton 56%
    2008 McCain 55%
    2000 Gore 55%
    1980 Carter 54%
    1984 Mondale 54%
    1988 G.H.W. Bush 53%
    2004 G.W. Bush 52%
    1992 Bill Clinton 51%
    1996 Dole 51%
    2004 Kerry 51%
    2008 Romney 51%
    1972 McGovern 50%
    1988 Dukakis 50%
    1992 G.H.W. Bush 46%
    1964 Goldwater 43%
    2016 Hillary Clinton 38%
    2016 Donald Trump 36%
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: "I have a black friend...."

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    ...I only hope the Democrats learned a valuable lesson from 2016, that is candidates matter. There was 9 million of us who voted third party against both major party candidates, please come up with a candidate we can vote for in 2020. We or most of those won't be voting for Trump, but nothing guarantees we'll be voting for the democratic candidate either. Learn from history, don't repeat its mistakes, please don't!...

    ...Highest to lowest favorable ratings of each major party presidential candidate.

    1956 Eisenhower 79%...
    ...2016 Donald Trump 36%
    I hope the Dems learned a lesson too. Hillary is just not a natural born politician and so much of politics is about, looks, style, projected image, etc. All Dems need to take this fact into consideration when they vote in their primary. Another factor was electing our first woman president, that was and will be a bridge too far for millions.

    I also hope independents learned their valuable lesson too. The nine million who threw their hands up in the air and voted third party or not at all, because neither candidate who was actually going to win, didn't measure up to their lofty expectations, resulted in Trump.

    I'm sure some independents still think that ending up with Trump was better than Hillary, but I believe the vast majority are smart enough to know the opposite is true. I pray they've learned from history and won't repeat the same mistake in 2020...

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