Why is it controversial to support poor whites?

Jredbaron96 · Mar 4, 2019

phattonez said:
Because land doesn't produce wealth.

What an incredibly naive statement. Of course it does. You can't build a farm just anywhere, you need good top soil and water, or at least the means to irrigate. You can't build a skyscraper anywhere, you need a solid foundation that won't sink other the weight.

Now if you want to get really semantic than yes it's not the land producing the wealth but to pretend it's not a factor at all is ridiculous. There's a reason blood is spilled over Kashmir and not the Gobi.

What do you have against the stupid? Are you saying that below average people shouldn't have kids? Why? Have you gotten into eugenics?

I don't like kids being raised by parents who think it's fine to dump them in front of a TV and hand them a frozen dinner. Sue me.

Do you know who's filling those McJobs?

People willing to work? As much as you want to say so immigration doesn't explain why so the male working rate is so low.

Cheaper is often worse, and you know it.

If the quality was so significantly poor people wouldn't buy it. Why do you not want to accept the fact that some people make things better than Americans?

You haven't made great arguments against them.

Because your points aren't great to begin with, lol.

phattonez · Mar 4, 2019

SouthernDemocrat said:
That is not what I asked. I asked what specific interests do poor white people have that other poor demographics don't have? For example, I am white. I grew up in poverty in the rural South. What interests and needs did I have that my poor minority friends at the time did not have?

Different groups have different issues. For blacks in the 80s it was crack. For whites today it's opium.

phattonez · Mar 4, 2019

Jredbaron96 said:
What an incredibly naive statement. Of course it does. You can't build a farm just anywhere, you need good top soil and water, or at least the means to irrigate. You can't build a skyscraper anywhere, you need a solid foundation that won't sink other the weight.

Now if you want to get really semantic than yes it's not the land producing the wealth but to pretend it's not a factor at all is ridiculous. There's a reason blood is spilled over Kashmir and not the Gobi.

I didn't say not a factor at all. I said that it doesn't produce wealth, which is true. The revenue of a factory is derived from the quality of the labor, not the value of the land that it sits on.

I don't like kids being raised by parents who think it's fine to dump them in front of a TV and hand them a frozen dinner. Sue me.

And all stupid parents do this? No smart parents do this?

People willing to work? As much as you want to say so immigration doesn't explain why so the male working rate is so low.

It absolutely does. There's great correlation between the foreign born percentage and our male labor force participation rate.

If the quality was so significantly poor people wouldn't buy it. Why do you not want to accept the fact that some people make things better than Americans?

Some things are made better. Not all things, and I certainly wouldn't state something as ridiculous as cheap means it's better.

Nickyjo · Mar 4, 2019

SouthernDemocrat said:
That is not what I asked. I asked what specific interests do poor white people have that other poor demographics don't have? For example, I am white. I grew up in poverty in the rural South. What interests and needs did I have that my poor minority friends at the time did not have?

Probably none, your interests generally coincided, except they have had the added disadvantage of race. You, on the other hand, had the added disadvantage of some politicians trying telling you that your interests do NOT coincide. See Nixon’s southern strategy and some of Trump’s rhetoric.

ALiberalModerate · Mar 4, 2019

phattonez said:
Different groups have different issues. For blacks in the 80s it was crack. For whites today it's opium.

Crack was not just addictive to blacks and opiates are every bit as addictive to minorities as they are to whites. I have known plenty of white crack addicts. Crack was / is more of an inner city problem and impacts those that live in the inner city regardless of their race. Opiates are a problem in all communities, not just rural white ones. Moreover, what politicians these days is not talking about the opiate addiction epidemic?

ALiberalModerate · Mar 4, 2019

Nickyjo said:
Probably none, your interests generally coincided, except they have had the added disadvantage of race. You, on the other hand, had the added disadvantage of some politicians trying telling you that your interests do NOT coincide. See Nixon’s southern strategy and some of Trump’s rhetoric.

Luckily in Arkansas I had the advantage of a governor at the time, Bill Clinton, that believed that the interests of poor minorities and poor whites coincided and regularly said as much.

As to race, a white kid that grows up in poverty tends to have an advantage of networks over a minority kid that goes up in poverty. What I mean by that is that a white kid that grows up in poverty has a greater likelihood of someone in his or her family knowing someone in the corporate world or in a skilled trade that will help them get their foot in the door for a good job opportunity once they finish with their education / training. In contrast, a black kid that grows up in poverty is less likely to have someone in their family that has those connections. That matters for a lot. You can work like hell to get yourself out of poverty, but no matter how hard you work, it helps to have those connections.

phattonez · Mar 4, 2019

SouthernDemocrat said:
Crack was not just addictive to blacks and opiates are every bit as addictive to minorities as they are to whites. I have known plenty of white crack addicts. Crack was / is more of an inner city problem and impacts those that live in the inner city regardless of their race. Opiates are a problem in all communities, not just rural white ones. Moreover, what politicians these days is not talking about the opiate addiction epidemic?

But it mostly affected blacks, just as this opium epidemic mostly affects whites. How come it's okay to talk about that for blacks, but not this for whites?

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Jredbaron96 · Mar 5, 2019

phattonez said:
I didn't say not a factor at all. I said that it doesn't produce wealth, which is true. The revenue of a factory is derived from the quality of the labor, not the value of the land that it sits on.

But it all starts with land and the worth of land. To pretend like it doesn't isn't foolish.

And all stupid parents do this? No smart parents do this?

Smart parents care for their kids? Why is that surprising?

It absolutely does. There's great correlation between the foreign born percentage and our male labor force participation rate.

Then why do studies not back that up?

https://www.kansascityfed.org/~/media/files/publicat/econrev/econrevarchive/2018/1q18tuzemen.pdf

https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/winship_malelaborparticipation_mr_v2.pdf

Some things are made better. Not all things, and I certainly wouldn't state something as ridiculous as cheap means it's better.

Your insinuation that foreign made products are all cheap pieces of crap that Americans only buy because their cheap is ridiculous. Of course people prefer to pay less, but if the quality is that terrible people aren't going to buy it. How did exports of the Yugo fare after people realized it was a piece of junk?

phattonez · Mar 5, 2019

Jredbaron96 said:
But it all starts with land and the worth of land. To pretend like it doesn't isn't foolish.

This doesn't answer my criticism. If the value of the land that a factory sits on jumps 2-fold, it's not as if productivity also doubles. Productivity is unchanged.

Smart parents care for their kids? Why is that surprising?

So do dumb parents.

Then why do studies not back that up?

https://www.kansascityfed.org/~/media/files/publicat/econrev/econrevarchive/2018/1q18tuzemen.pdf

https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/winship_malelaborparticipation_mr_v2.pdf

The first source doesn't even address immigration, and the second one doesn't investigate it as a cause. Meanwhile there is this:

Your insinuation that foreign made products are all cheap pieces of crap that Americans only buy because their cheap is ridiculous. Of course people prefer to pay less, but if the quality is that terrible people aren't going to buy it. How did exports of the Yugo fare after people realized it was a piece of junk?

Not everything made overseas is cheap crap. My point is simply that shipping jobs overseas is nothing more than a scheme to keep wages down. As such, we have no reason to allow companies to do it.

Jredbaron96 · Mar 5, 2019

phattonez said:
This doesn't answer my criticism. If the value of the land that a factory sits on jumps 2-fold, it's not as if productivity also doubles. Productivity is unchanged.

Because your criticism is based on a false pretense.

So do dumb parents.

If they take care of their kids they're not dumb parents.

I'm not talking dumb vs smart in terms of overall intelligence. I'm taking about parental knowledge.

The first source doesn't even address immigration, and the second one doesn't investigate it as a cause. Meanwhile there is this:

Could it be that immigration doesn't explain the decrease in male labor force participation?

No of course not, it's the immigrants who are to blame.

Not everything made overseas is cheap crap. My point is simply that shipping jobs overseas is nothing more than a scheme to keep wages down. As such, we have no reason to allow companies to do it.

Ah, so instead we need to coddle corporations with protectionist policies that leave them completely noncompetitive and barely profitable. How's that working out for Greece?

phattonez · Mar 5, 2019

Jredbaron96 said:
Because your criticism is based on a false pretense.

This doesn't answer my argument. If the value of the land that a factory sits on jumps 2-fold, it's not as if productivity also doubles. Productivity is unchanged.

If they take care of their kids they're not dumb parents.

I'm not talking dumb vs smart in terms of overall intelligence. I'm taking about parental knowledge.

And married parents with more resources and less time at work generally take better care of their parents. Let's move to getting parents compensated better and more vacation time.

Could it be that immigration doesn't explain the decrease in male labor force participation?

No of course not, it's the immigrants who are to blame.

It's that those papers didn't even look at it as an issue, even though there's a clear correlation between immigration and labor force participation.

Ah, so instead we need to coddle corporations with protectionist policies that leave them completely noncompetitive and barely profitable. How's that working out for Greece?

Erect tariffs, especially on countries that use near slave labor, and break up our own large monopolies.

And Greece's problem is that it doesn't have economic sovereignty. It's dependent on the whims of the EU.

Jredbaron96 · Mar 5, 2019

phattonez said:
This doesn't answer my argument. If the value of the land that a factory sits on jumps 2-fold, it's not as if productivity also doubles. Productivity is unchanged.

Are you just going to keep ignoring the fact that land does have value?

And married parents with more resources and less time at work generally take better care of their parents. Let's move to getting parents compensated better and more vacation time.

I'm not arguing against that.

It's that those papers didn't even look at it as an issue, even though there's a clear correlation between immigration and labor force participation.

Labor force participation rate, male (% of male population ages 15+) (modeled ILO estimate) | Data

Oh really?

Erect tariffs,

On what?

especially on countries that use near slave labor,

What about the countries that have seen their wages increase due to American purchases?

and break up our own large monopolies.

Like who?

And Greece's problem is that it doesn't have economic sovereignty. It's dependent on the whims of the EU.

Greece's economic problems began long before the EU was a thing. Greece's debt didn't become a problem until countries stopped investing in it. The solution is to not adopt stupidly protectionist policies that coddle enterprises at the expense of being virtually noncompetitive in the international market.

phattonez · Mar 5, 2019

Jredbaron96 said:
Are you just going to keep ignoring the fact that land does have value?

I understand that it has value. I'm just saying that the value doesn't produce wealth.

I'm not arguing against that.

Labor force participation rate, male (% of male population ages 15+) (modeled ILO estimate) | Data

Oh really?

So what? I'm talking about the US. I'm not speaking about the world. There are multiple variables that can affect it. For us, the biggest factor is immigration.

On what?

Everything that we can make ourselves.

What about the countries that have seen their wages increase due to American purchases?

I care more about the US than other countries. They can still develop their industries from domestic demand.

Like who?

Google, Verizon, TimeWarner, etc.

Greece's economic problems began long before the EU was a thing. Greece's debt didn't become a problem until countries stopped investing in it. The solution is to not adopt stupidly protectionist policies that coddle enterprises at the expense of being virtually noncompetitive in the international market.

I'm not saying that Greece would be a powerhouse, I'm just saying that the EU isn't helping.

Jredbaron96 · Mar 5, 2019

phattonez said:
I understand that it has value. I'm just saying that the value doesn't produce wealth.

I'm not arguing against that.

Then trying to keep land from being profitable is stupid. It's a finite resource and some of it is worth more than others.

So what? I'm talking about the US. I'm not speaking about the world. There are multiple variables that can affect it. For us, the biggest factor is immigration.

The fact that the entire world is undergoing the same problem and it's being linked with rising automation and mechanization would suggest that's the main cause for the drop in male labor force participation.

Everything that we can make ourselves.

Go ahead and compile a list of everything we can make ourselves that don't require a lick of imports.

Google, Verizon, TimeWarner, etc.

Punishing successful companies for being successful is stupid. There are plenty of things wrong with Corporations in America but being successful isn't reason to tear them down.

I'm not saying that Greece would be a powerhouse, I'm just saying that the EU isn't helping.

What exactly is the EU doing that is causing Greece to coddle it's enterprises?

phattonez · Mar 5, 2019

Jredbaron96 said:
Then trying to keep land from being profitable is stupid. It's a finite resource and some of it is worth more than others.

If you own a piece of property and a freeway is built next to it, why should you get the benefit? Shouldn't the freeway builder get that profit?

The fact that the entire world is undergoing the same problem and it's being linked with rising automation and mechanization would suggest that's the main cause for the drop in male labor force participation.

Or that large groups of people are being undercut and left without a job.

Go ahead and compile a list of everything we can make ourselves that don't require a lick of imports.

If there is any country that could go full autarky, the US would be closest.

Punishing successful companies for being successful is stupid. There are plenty of things wrong with Corporations in America but being successful isn't reason to tear them down.

Lol, when did you become a corporate shill?

What exactly is the EU doing that is causing Greece to coddle it's enterprises?

Controlling its currency.

Jredbaron96 · Mar 5, 2019

phattonez said:
If you own a piece of property and a freeway is built next to it, why should you get the benefit? Shouldn't the freeway builder get that profit?

What are you even talking about? What benefit am I gaining? What property am I holding next to a freeway?

Or that large groups of people are being undercut and left without a job.

Because you say so, right?

If there is any country that could go full autarky, the US would be closest.

Interesting point. Tell me, of all the nations that have attempted autarky, how are they doing?

Lol, when did you become a corporate shill?

Already out of arguments huh?

Capitalism properly implemented is a perfectly acceptable means of economics. That shouldn't surprise you.

Controlling its currency.

That's not why Greek companies are so noncompetitive, but okay.

phattonez · Mar 5, 2019

Jredbaron96 said:
What are you even talking about? What benefit am I gaining? What property am I holding next to a freeway?

It's a hypothetical scenario to help prove a point. It's a common technique in debates.

Because you say so, right?

Wages for men are lower today than they were in the 70s. That's a fact.

Interesting point. Tell me, of all the nations that have attempted autarky, how are they doing?

What other country that's attempted it has had the magnitude and diversity of natural resources that the US? Maybe Russia?

Already out of arguments huh?

Capitalism properly implemented is a perfectly acceptable means of economics. That shouldn't surprise you.

Corporate profits are up while median male wages are down, a 50 year trend. Why should I support a system that produces this?

Jredbaron96 · Mar 16, 2019

phattonez said:
It's a hypothetical scenario to help prove a point. It's a common technique in debates.

Don't be a smartass. What's on my land? What have I done with it? Do I operate some sort of enterprise?

Wages for men are lower today than they were in the 70s. That's a fact.

And there are reasons for that, just not the ones you want to accept.

What other country that's attempted it has had the magnitude and diversity of natural resources that the US? Maybe Russia?

No country on earth has the resources to implement autarky.

Corporate profits are up while median male wages are down, a 50 year trend. Why should I support a system that produces this?

In the US. There are free market countries with people doing just fine.

Why is it controversial to support poor whites?

Jredbaron96

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