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Kamala Harris Wants To Get Rid Of Columbus Day

vesper said:
The facts I gave of his birthplace are backed up by many historians. You don't think in the 1400's people didn't migrate? Columbus at a young age was already sailing in the world as he knew it seeking to make money in the spice trade. His wife was a native of Portugal and his lover lived in Spain.
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Genoa is not called the Dominican Republic today. You literally could not be more wrong about that.
 
vesper said:
No he wasn't the first European to make the voyage to the North American continent. Yes after his first voyage he was made Governor of the Indies and there is evidence the way he governed resulted in atrocities. But even after that he was commissioned for three more explorations of the new world. The later crimes he was charged were politically motivated.
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I don't really care whether the crimes he was charged with were politically motivated. He oversaw a slew of atrocities committed against a peaceful people, he was the boss, the leader, and so he ordered them done or explicitly approved them. No amount of passive voice will change that.

It was FDR that declared Christopher Columbus Day an national holiday in 1937.
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OK, I guess. :confused:
 
Kobie said:
Genoa is not called the Dominican Republic today. You literally could not be more wrong about that.
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I agree, CC was born in Europe
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Kobie was reacting to this particular part of post #190



The republic of Genoa is located in Italy.

The Dominican Republic is located on the same island as Haiti.
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Well I evidently cut a few sentences out of my post accidently discussing Columbus' first big discovery for Spain and that is now called the Dominican Republic. He was born in Genoa. As far as skin tone Olive skin is a human skin color spectrum. It is often associated with pigmentation in the Type III to Type IV and Type V ranges of the Fitzpatrick scale. It generally refers to light or moderate brown, brownish, or tannish skin which is common in the Genoa area and the Middle East.
 
CMPancake said:
I've come to realize on my time in DP is that racists do not actually care about history, culture, or the harsh truths of the world that do not conform to their bigoted view of the world, so I won't waste my time addressing each individual point you all made. Instead I'll just make it abundantly clear that anyone who attempts to excuse genocide, rape, and enslavement by claiming the victims were inhuman savages are racists with a malformed sense of morality.
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holy crap though, no one wants to excuse any of that, but if we're gong to condemn all that then EVERY ****ing culture in history has blood on their hands. human history has been one long tale of harshly kicking each others ass up until...lets see... western civilization, the founding of the USA, and the republics that gave people time and freedoms to decry such barbaric practices.
 
Hypothetical said:
holy crap though, no one wants to excuse any of that, but if we're gong to condemn all that then EVERY ****ing culture in history has blood on their hands. human history has been one long tale of harshly kicking each others ass up until...lets see... western civilization, the founding of the USA, and the republics that gave people time and freedoms to decry such barbaric practices.
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And how many of those cultures still celebrate and regard notable killers and monsters with their own holiday?
 
Kobie said:
Genoa is not called the Dominican Republic today. You literally could not be more wrong about that.
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You are right Kobie it is not. I seem to be missing a few sentences in my original post. The reason for bringing up the Dominican Republic was it was Columbus' first big find for Spain.

But the fact remains in Genoa people have olive skin and that can range from lightly brownish to tanned. Italy, the Balkan countries all have skin types that are richer in pigment where the rest of Europe seems to be very white.
 
CMPancake said:
And how many of those cultures still celebrate and regard notable killers and monsters with their own holiday?
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I don't care if you change the name of the holiday, i could care less, but the discovery of the america's by Europe does represent a turning point in the belief in freedom of men. fine make it something more palatable to you, but lets not forget the true meaning either , or the history that got us to this point... as rotten as some of it may be.
 
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Hypothetical said:
holy crap though, no one wants to excuse any of that, but if we're gong to condemn all that then EVERY ****ing culture in history has blood on their hands. human history has been one long tale of harshly kicking each others ass up until...lets see... western civilization, the founding of the USA, and the republics that gave people time and freedoms to decry such barbaric practices.
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But when people say, pretty explicitly, that it's not so bad what Columbus did to the peaceful people who welcomed him with open arms, saved his men and ships, etc. because other natives went to war and took slaves, you ARE EXCUSING the genocide, rape, torture inflicted by Columbus or on his orders or blessing on the native population. it wasn't just taking slaves either, the accounts are horrifying - beheading kids for fun, literally, rape of course, selling girls 9 or 10 into sex slavery, obviously. Those who didn't meet the impossible task of gathering enough gold in an area with almost no gold had their hands chopped off and hung around their necks, then left to die of course. Thousands of people executed this way.

So if we're honest about the history, that's what we are celebrating. I don't find it something to celebrate, actually.
 
Hypothetical said:
I don't care if you change the name of the holiday, i could care less, but the discovery of the america's by Europe does represent a turning point in the belief in freedom of men. fine make it something more palatable to you, but lets not forget the true meaning either , or the history that got us to this point... as rotten as some of it may be.
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It just began the era of colonialism.

The problem is you don't look at things from the perspective of a human being. Instead you're seeing things from the perspective of a European. The discovery of these lands was a nightmare for those who lived there. It was the beginning of colonialism and a massive increase in slavery. I can't imagine why you would think it was the beginning of "freedom of men."

I can appreciate Thomas Jefferson, George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. All of them would technically be considered racists today but for their time they were far more fair to other races than most men of their time.

Columbus was brutal. He doesn't deserve to be celebrated. He deserves mention in the history books for his accomplishments and his failings.

Why don't we celebrate actual heroes like Jonas Salk or Norman Borlaug? Norman Borlaug probably saved billions of people from starvation. He's a hero nobody knows about. Yet we all know about a dirtbag like Columbus.
 
JasperL said:
I don't really care whether the crimes he was charged with were politically motivated. He oversaw a slew of atrocities committed against a peaceful people, he was the boss, the leader, and so he ordered them done or explicitly approved them. No amount of passive voice will change that.



OK, I guess. :confused:
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Yes Columbus is no saint. But what he did accomplish was pretty spectacular that changed life globally on many issues creating the modern Western world.
 
vesper said:
Yes Columbus is no saint. But what he did accomplish was pretty spectacular that changed life globally on many issues creating the modern Western world.
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So, without Columbus Europeans never discover the rest of the world? He's just the first guy from Europe to reach the Caribbean. He didn't change the world the way scientists who have made great discoveries have.
 
vesper said:
Yes Columbus is no saint. But what he did accomplish was pretty spectacular that changed life globally on many issues creating the modern Western world.
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Yes, if a person who oversaw and directed a massive program of torture, rape, enslavement, and genocide, often literally for fun and giggles by his men, is "no saint" then yeah, he was no saint. And it certainly did change life in central and S. America - 8-10 million dead from disease, starvation and murder. But let's use some more euphemisms (no saint) and passive voice (resulted in atrocities) to disregard the costs.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
So, without Columbus Europeans never discover the rest of the world? He's just the first guy from Europe to reach the Caribbean. He didn't change the world the way scientists who have made great discoveries have.
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Well he did discover more than the Caribbean. You need to add South America and Central America to that list. He never set inland on anything identified as the United States. That came from other explorers. In the U.S. however all along the Eastern coast there's lots of evidence there were people from Northern/Central Europe and tribes from South America long before the very first English settlement in what is now the U.S. was the Roanoke Island colony in North Carolina, which was founded in 1587.
 
JasperL said:
Yes, if a person who oversaw and directed a massive program of torture, rape, enslavement, and genocide, often literally for fun and giggles by his men, is "no saint" then yeah, he was no saint. And it certainly did change life in central and S. America - 8-10 million dead from disease, starvation and murder. But let's use some more euphemisms (no saint) and passive voice (resulted in atrocities) to disregard the costs.
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Have you ever read any of Columbus' writings to the King and Queen of Spain? While he was exploring the Caribbean he came across Indians that were covered in scars on a particular island. . He learned from them that the scars were the result of others invading their island to capture their people for slavery. He said they had very primitive means of weaponry and if he wanted to could rule over them with less than 50 men. He didn't but what it did tell is this island a new find for Columbus was known to others where they were harvesting slaves.

Slavery was common practice throughout the world in those day. Whomever conquered you, you became their slaves. Color was not an option. In the 1400's who had the knowledge that these explorers or settlers were exposing the natives to new diseases. Good Lord, in those days most Europeans and others did not even bathe but once or twice a year. You want to talk the spread of disease go back to the 1300's and the outbreak of the Bubonic plague. It started in China one of the busiest trade partners. It was trade among countries that spread the Black Death throughout the known world at that time.


But since how many lives have been saved with humanitarian aid, including food, medicine and clean water because of the global apparatus in place that explorers like Columbus initiated ?
 
vesper said:
Have you ever read any of Columbus' writings to the King and Queen of Spain? While he was exploring the Caribbean he came across Indians that were covered in scars on a particular island. . He learned from them that the scars were the result of others invading their island to capture their people for slavery. He said they had very primitive means of weaponry and if he wanted to could rule over them with less than 50 men. He didn't but what it did tell is this island a new find for Columbus was known to others where they were harvesting slaves.

Slavery was common practice throughout the world in those day. Whomever conquered you, you became their slaves. Color was not an option. In the 1400's who had the knowledge that these explorers or settlers were exposing the natives to new diseases. Good Lord, in those days most Europeans and others did not even bathe but once or twice a year. You want to talk the spread of disease go back to the 1300's and the outbreak of the Bubonic plague. It started in China one of the busiest trade partners. It was trade among countries that spread the Black Death throughout the known world at that time.


But since how many lives have been saved with humanitarian aid, including food, medicine and clean water because of the global apparatus in place that explorers like Columbus initiated ?
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Columbus was NO explorer...He sailed for one reason only...Plunder ....He deserves NO special day
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
It just began the era of colonialism.

The problem is you don't look at things from the perspective of a human being. Instead you're seeing things from the perspective of a European. The discovery of these lands was a nightmare for those who lived there. It was the beginning of colonialism and a massive increase in slavery. I can't imagine why you would think it was the beginning of "freedom of men."

I can appreciate Thomas Jefferson, George Washington or Abraham Lincoln. All of them would technically be considered racists today but for their time they were far more fair to other races than most men of their time.

Columbus was brutal. He doesn't deserve to be celebrated. He deserves mention in the history books for his accomplishments and his failings.

Why don't we celebrate actual heroes like Jonas Salk or Norman Borlaug? Norman Borlaug probably saved billions of people from starvation. He's a hero nobody knows about. Yet we all know about a dirtbag like Columbus.
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because like it or not, with all its warts, the formation of the United States and its constitution is a high water mark in the history of "freedom of men" and yes that's every man... eventually they got to where they needed to be.

I look at things from the perspective of history. colonialism was nothing different than had come before... might makes right, EVERY culture warred upon others and had slaves way before the Europeans, and so did they, it was a different time. LOTS of people were brutal. Even being a citizen of Europe in the medieval days was basically being a slave, they were ruled by kings who had held a LOT power over whether they could live or die, AND SO DID OTHER CULTURES. that doesn't matter now... WHAT DOES MATTER is that eventually the serfs threw off those bonds and started something new about human freedoms, which they did not carry out perfectly at first... but they carried it out. Eventually it led to freedoms for all in what free world we have now.


now you can celebrate that or not as you like, but lets understand that Europeans weren't worse than anyone else, they merely had the technology to make war and eventually conquer better than most.

I don;t care about Columbus either but I do care about understanding history and the growth of our social skills as a species. 1 species dammit.
 
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Visbek said:
If Columbus had never sailed, it is virtually certain that some other explorer (like Amerigo Vespucci) would have made a similar trip.
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You have unwittingly given another idea to the extremists: Let's stop naming the continent after Amerigo.
 
Moderate Right said:
The left are totally ridiculous to want to rewrite history. History is chock full of leaders and people such as Columbus who were both good and bad. I think it goes with the job.
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Hyperbolic as hell, man. The only thing the left is calling for is to stop celebrating him. He gets to stay in the history books. We teach kids the whole truth, that he ran into the Americas while searching for India, paved the way for colonialism, and he was a vicious piece of ****. Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
 
Ahlevah said:
I know that's been claimed, but I wasn't aware that it's been proven. The accounts of Erikson are taken from Norse sagas, or legends, which were written hundreds of years after the presumed events took place. It looks like Norsemen were in Newfoundland, then, well, they weren't. Maybe they were eaten by penguins or something. :shrug: Like I said: No Columbus, no United States.



You sure about that?
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It's been proven.

No Columbus, no United States? Yes, because nobody ever would have sailed west from Europe. Even now. They would all be living there and not a single person would know about North America.

Nobody runs around in a loin cloth in Newfoundland all year. Your home schooling didn't teach you much.
 
JC Callender said:
Probably best not to memorialize anyone then since no one's perfect.
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Which is exactly what the left would get if they had their way because no one is perfect and we need to accept that and not wipe history clean.
 
DH Kirkwood said:
Hyperbolic as hell, man. The only thing the left is calling for is to stop celebrating him. He gets to stay in the history books. We teach kids the whole truth, that he ran into the Americas while searching for India, paved the way for colonialism, and he was a vicious piece of ****. Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
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Socialists are but a small segment of society. Nothing proves their craziness more than the Green New Deal where they want to renovate or rebuild every single building in existence and want to wipe out the history of the world, just like the Taliban want to do. They're nuts.
 
DH Kirkwood said:
Hyperbolic as hell, man. The only thing the left is calling for is to stop celebrating him. He gets to stay in the history books. We teach kids the whole truth, that he ran into the Americas while searching for India, paved the way for colonialism, and he was a vicious piece of ****. Pretty cut and dry, if you ask me.
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Let's honor the wishes of disgruntled wounded nerve leftists and honor no human who ever lived - except for Jesus.
 
veritas1 said:
They won't go after Ellison, Booker or Fairfax either but they have seen fit to disparage a 95 year old WWII veteran on his death. Truly sick.

'''#MeToo''' spray-painted on Florida statue of iconic WWII sailor kissing nurse | Fox News
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Cool post. Good on you. You managed to name 3 black men.

Keith Ellison asked for an investigation into the abuse allegation against him. The police have yet to do it.

Cory Booker wrote about trying to get to second base with his girlfriend when they were both 15 years old in 1984. You want #MeToo to "go after" every 15 year old boy who tried to cop a feel? Sounds reasonable.

#MeToo has gone after Fairfax/. As recently as last week when his accuser spoke at a #MeToo-related event.

By the way - #MeToo isn't a person. It isn't on anyone's resume. It was a movement that started after the Epstein abuse came to light.

Maybe #MeToo should go after men who brag about grabbing ******s.

By the way, please do tell us all how thousands of women (#MeToo people) met to spray paint that statue, all of them, all at once, and nobody knew about it. Because it couldn't have been one person vandalizing a statue. It's all of them, and instead of "going after" Booker for trying to cop a feel in 1984 when he was 15, they all got together and went after a statue.
 
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