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All liberals are not kooks and all conservatives are not fascists

Xelor

Xelor

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Elsewhere on the forum I started a thread that asks members to share what was their favorite TV show of the 1980s. A member mentioned Designing Women, and his/her doing so reminded me of one of my favorite segments from the series, one from "The Candidate" episode.

I watched that segment and, in light of all the ranting about religion, racism and Republicans and Democrats pervading political discourse today, I was struck by how still-current "Julia" monologue remains.

So, here it is.



​



As "Julia" says, "All liberals are not kooks any more than all conservatives are not fascists." I think it's high time we elect leaders who ascribe to rather than refute that notion.
 
All liberals and all conservatives are both kooks and fascists. Who didn't know that?
 
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Xelor said:
As "Julia" says, "All liberals are not kooks any more than all conservatives are not fascists." I think it's high time we elect leaders who ascribe to rather than refute that notion.
Click to expand...

Yeah, see the thing is though, this episode takes place in the '80s. Remember when Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush were the leaders of the Republican party? In 2016 George H.W. Bush and his wife supported Hillary Clinton, and many people close to the Reagans have said that neither he nor his wife would have supported Trump.

The Republicans of that day and age were younger and far more open to change. They were happy to embrace the future, but now they are mostly older, bitter and fearful of anything new. They see a changing more diverse culture as "National Emergency."

Donald Trump is absolutely 100% a fascist. His most ardent supporters are very clearly and unequivocally white supremacists, misogynists, religious zealots, and gun nuts. Donald Trump could not have won the White House without the support of virtually every single solitary Republican voter's support. The Republican party has no crossed a line into pure unadulterated evil. Making a distinction between moderate Republicans and the vilest among them serves no purpose. It's like differentiating between the Germans who really wanted to kill the Jews and the ones who just wanted the trains to run on time. They're all Nazis now. It's not our responsibility to give them the benefit of the doubt. The burden of proof is now on them. If they don't like what's become of their ideology then it's their responsibility to make it clear they don't support Trump with more than just empty words.
 
Xelor said:
Elsewhere on the forum I started a thread that asks members to share what was their favorite TV show of the 1980s. A member mentioned Designing Women, and his/her doing so reminded me of one of my favorite segments from the series, one from "The Candidate" episode.

I watched that segment and, in light of all the ranting about religion, racism and Republicans and Democrats pervading political discourse today, I was struck by how still-current "Julia" monologue remains.

So, here it is.



​



As "Julia" says, "All liberals are not kooks any more than all conservatives are not fascists." I think it's high time we elect leaders who ascribe to rather than refute that notion.
Click to expand...


As long as you elect leaders who aren't politicians, you'll be okay.
 
MrWonka said:
Yeah, see the thing is though, this episode takes place in the '80s. Remember when Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush were the leaders of the Republican party? In 2016 George H.W. Bush and his wife supported Hillary Clinton, and many people close to the Reagans have said that neither he nor his wife would have supported Trump.

The Republicans of that day and age were younger and far more open to change. They were happy to embrace the future, but now they are mostly older, bitter and fearful of anything new. They see a changing more diverse culture as "National Emergency."

Donald Trump is absolutely 100% a fascist. His most ardent supporters are very clearly and unequivocally white supremacists, misogynists, religious zealots, and gun nuts. Donald Trump could not have won the White House without the support of virtually every single solitary Republican voter's support. The Republican party has no crossed a line into pure unadulterated evil. Making a distinction between moderate Republicans and the vilest among them serves no purpose. It's like differentiating between the Germans who really wanted to kill the Jews and the ones who just wanted the trains to run on time. They're all Nazis now. It's not our responsibility to give them the benefit of the doubt. The burden of proof is now on them. If they don't like what's become of their ideology then it's their responsibility to make it clear they don't support Trump with more than just empty words.
Click to expand...

But that is why the Republican Party has been shrinking.
Yes, the Democratic Party has been shrinking too, but not nearly at the same rate.
The big problem for the Democrats is that their party has been WEAKENING ever since 1994.
The Democratic Party cut its keel wires and cast itself adrift, and up until very recently, it has had very little in the way of a refined message. One might argue that its message is still not refined but the percolating has begun in earnest.
If they can brew something palatable, their ranks will swell. It remains to be seen.

I caution you in your assessment of "all Trump supporters" versus "his most ardent supporters" because the research shows that a good many of the people who voted for him were just revulsed by Hillary, or they felt that Trump's populist message appealed to them, or they simply felt loyalty to the Republican Party via personal tradition.

The line between his most ardent supporters and his reliably institutional supporters is a bit blurred until the issues are pressed, then it becomes more clear, and therefore making a distinction between moderates and the most vile Trumpers is now more important than ever, so we may be in disagreement there.
And it bears mention that Trump did not win with every single solitary Republican's support. The numbers simply do not show that because if they had, it would have been a landslide.
 
Fledermaus said:
It is especially galling to see people cling to the NAZI = Socialist thing.
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Semantics. I like those arguments. Sure, nazis were only socialist in the "we'll take your stuff or tell you what to do with it" sense, but there's something to be said of centralized economics.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
I caution you in your assessment of "all Trump supporters" versus "his most ardent supporters" because the research shows that a good many of the people who voted for him were just revulsed by Hillary, or they felt that Trump's populist message appealed to them, or they simply felt loyalty to the Republican Party via personal tradition.
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Stupid Nazis are still Nazis. I will say this again for you. There is no excuse for thinking Donald Trump was an acceptable choice. None. I don't give a flying **** what twisted garbage logic you used to convince yourself that Hillary Clinton was just as bad or worse. All Trump voters. Every, single, solitary, one of them. They are at best morons and worst evil, but usually some combination of the two. "Moron" is the best possible word that can be used to describe them. That's in giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The Republican party has crossed a line into pure unadulterated Evil, and if you found a way to convince yourself that Hillary Clinton was just as bad then the problem is with you. You've got a choice between a party that is 90% positive and a party that is 90% evil. If you choose to equate the two or sided with Evil it doesn't matter why you did it. You're still a ****ty person who made a big ****ing mistake. It's time for you to be an adult and admit that you ****ed up.

You're trying to blame the nice salesmen who tried to sell you a decent Buick that would have been a solid deal for the fact that you stupidly got tricked into buying a lemon from the most obviously shady used car salesmen in the history of mankind. You ****ed up. Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party gave you a significantly better choice, and you rejected it for dog ****. Stop trying to blame Democrats for your **** up. We offered you Broccoli, and you choose Strychnine because you were mad you couldn't have Pizza.

Contrary to what so-called Moderates and Independents would like to think it is absolutely possible to still be a Partisan hack while claiming a Moderate status. One of the problems with liberals is also their strength. They don't like to be pigeonholed or labeled. In the interested of trying to avoid the label of Democrat, there are those who will come up with all kinds of convoluted excuses for why they're bad too. Just like a partisan Democrat or Republican will bend over backward to come up with excuses to defend something their candidate did. An independent will bend over backward to try and justify their independence by making up excuses for not liking both sides.

If you voted for Hitler you're a Nazi. I don't care why. I don't care if you supported Mussolini because you thought he'd made the Trains run on time. You're still a disgusting moron, and you're still a fascist.
 
MrWonka said:
Stupid Nazis are still Nazis. I will say this again for you. There is no excuse for thinking Donald Trump was an acceptable choice. None. I don't give a flying **** what twisted garbage logic you used to convince yourself that Hillary Clinton was just as bad or worse. All Trump voters. Every, single, solitary, one of them. They are at best morons and worst evil, but usually some combination of the two. "Moron" is the best possible word that can be used to describe them. That's in giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The Republican party has crossed a line into pure unadulterated Evil, and if you found a way to convince yourself that Hillary Clinton was just as bad then the problem is with you. You've got a choice between a party that is 90% positive and a party that is 90% evil. If you choose to equate the two or sided with Evil it doesn't matter why you did it. You're still a ****ty person who made a big ****ing mistake. It's time for you to be an adult and admit that you ****ed up.

You're trying to blame the nice salesmen who tried to sell you a decent Buick that would have been a solid deal for the fact that you stupidly got tricked into buying a lemon from the most obviously shady used car salesmen in the history of mankind. You ****ed up. Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party gave you a significantly better choice, and you rejected it for dog ****. Stop trying to blame Democrats for your **** up. We offered you Broccoli, and you choose Strychnine because you were mad you couldn't have Pizza.

Contrary to what so-called Moderates and Independents would like to think it is absolutely possible to still be a Partisan hack while claiming a Moderate status. One of the problems with liberals is also their strength. They don't like to be pigeonholed or labeled. In the interested of trying to avoid the label of Democrat, there are those who will come up with all kinds of convoluted excuses for why they're bad too. Just like a partisan Democrat or Republican will bend over backward to come up with excuses to defend something their candidate did. An independent will bend over backward to try and justify their independence by making up excuses for not liking both sides.

If you voted for Hitler you're a Nazi. I don't care why. I don't care if you supported Mussolini because you thought he'd made the Trains run on time. You're still a disgusting moron, and you're still a fascist.
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I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.
-- Abraham Maslow​

While there is much apparent overlap between Trump and Republicans, there isn't congruence. It is inequitable, to oneself and to others, to disregard that reality.

Even as I largely agree with your overall themes, I take exception with your abridgement of what some might call nuance, but that I consider ineluctably patent: the nature of change over time. For instance, I'll cede that in voting for Trump people, Republicans/conservatives acted benightedly; however, that was 2016 and it's now 2019. Some of such voters remain hewn to Trump; others do not. Those who have come about cannot be currently described as fascists, or Nazis, or another similar moniker one favors.

Re: Republicans:
I share your disdain for Trump and Trumpkins (my term for "obdurately obsequious and/or obliging exponents or defenders of Donald Trump, his words, his ways and his means"), and I concur that there were ample puissant indicators that, in the 2016 POTUS race, the Democratic party offered a "significantly better choice." I think fitting too the theme of your broccoli-strychnine analogy, though I'd have gone with nightshade (or rosary peas or some other plant that's beguilingly toxic) rather than strychnine.


Re: Independents:
Perhaps you know these aphorisms:
  • A Yalie is a Harvard man who's seen the light.
  • You always can tell a Harvard man when you see him, but you can’t tell him much.
Both describe various aspects of my lack of express political affiliation, but they are but descriptions, no explanations and most certainly not justifications. You or others may conflate descriptions, explanations and justifications; I don't. Similarly, I know policy and politics differ, though others conflate the two. I justify my policy positions, but not my political, electoral choices. As a man of principle, my political choices flow from my ponderings and prioritization of policy goals, strategies and tactics.

Quite simply, neither party's platforms align with my policy stances; thus I simply refuse to associate myself with them. It's not about whether either is "good or bad." It's about whether I believe I have a place in either. Each party will do what it's going to do, with or without me. The question is whether I want to be a part of what a party does.
 
Xelor said:
While there is much apparent overlap between Trump and Republicans, there isn't congruence.
Click to expand...
False. Donald Trump could not have won a National Election for President without the votes of 99.999% of Republicans. Even the ones who said they were "Never Trump" by and large held their nose and let this happen. Lindsey Graham was at one point a person who sounded more like me when it came to the subject of Trump only to kiss his ass at every turn once he saw the supreme court justices he nominated.

As I said before. There were a lot of Germans who supported Hitler because they didn't like the other guy. They didn't really want to murder the Jews, they just wanted someone strong who would put Germany first. We didn't care, and we shouldn't care. The Republican party under Trump has crossed a line into pure unadulterated Evil. The Republican party isn't a race or ethnicity. If you want to separate yourself from Trump then you can leave the party and register as something else.

Xelor said:
Even as I largely agree with your overall themes, I take exception with your abridgement of what some might call nuance, but that I consider ineluctably patent: the nature of change over time. For instance, I'll cede that in voting for Trump people, Republicans/conservatives acted benightedly; however, that was 2016 and it's now 2019. Some of such voters remain hewn to Trump; others do not. Those who have come about cannot be currently described as fascists, or Nazis, or another similar moniker one favors.
Click to expand...
And again I say to you. Political parties are not ethnicities. You are not beholden to them. The Republican Party is the party of Trump. That is who they nominated, and that is who they will nominate again. It is time for any Republican who wants to separate themselves from Trump to separate themselves from the Republican Party.

Those so-called moderate reasonable Republicans were all too happy to get the votes of racist, misogynist, xenophobic Trump supporters for 40 years. They thought the rich elitist businessmen types could control them, but they knew full well who they had thrown their lot in with. The cat is now out of the bag. Any bull**** lies about the Republican party being about small government, pro-business and family values is now gone. That ship has sailed. The Republican party is beyond saving and needs to be put out of its misery. If you're not helping us achieve that goal then I don't give a flying **** about your nuanced excuse for why you're not.

Xelor said:
I'd have gone with nightshade (or rosary peas or some other plant that's beguilingly toxic) rather than strychnine.
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To quote Jon Stewart referencing Sarah Palin's newspaper **** up..."It's not a gotcha question just because of it gotcha." Trump isn't beguilingly toxic. He's very very obviously toxic, and if you couldn't figure that out a long time ago then you I don't want your input when choosing the next flower we eat either.

Xelor said:
Quite simply, neither party's platforms align with my policy stances; thus I simply refuse to associate myself with them. It's not about whether either is "good or bad." It's about whether I believe I have a place in either. Each party will do what it's going to do, with or without me. The question is whether I want to be a part of what a party does.
Click to expand...
I've often equated many moderates, independents, and libertarians who think like this to political hipsters. Afraid to align themselves with any popular political party because they want to seem different, edgy, nuanced. In reality, they just don't want to put themselves out there and be seen supporting a band that's well known in case that puts them in the wrong company.

In the political environment we're in today there's no excuse for trying to avoid labels. The choices are very clear. Telling me you don't love everything about Democrats and Liberals is like telling me you're not a huge Led Zeppelin fan and your more into Deep Purple. I really don't have time for that ****.
 
Xelor said:

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.
-- Abraham Maslow​
Click to expand...

No, it's more like this...

YouTube

One of the great strengths of Liberals is their understanding of nuance and the fact that they understand the world is not black and white, but if you're not careful that can also be your undoing. While you want to have your little discussions about nuance, hate just comes along and punches you in the mouth. Sometimes you have to recognize a serious threat and you have to fight it. You have to let your fight or flight instincts take over and end the threat. There may be some Republicans who say they hate Trump, and that's fine. But it is their responsibility to get the **** out of the way when we come for the rest of them.
 
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Xelor said:
Elsewhere on the forum I started a thread that asks members to share what was their favorite TV show of the 1980s. A member mentioned Designing Women, and his/her doing so reminded me of one of my favorite segments from the series, one from "The Candidate" episode.

I watched that segment and, in light of all the ranting about religion, racism and Republicans and Democrats pervading political discourse today, I was struck by how still-current "Julia" monologue remains.

So, here it is.



​



As "Julia" says, "All liberals are not kooks any more than all conservatives are not fascists." I think it's high time we elect leaders who ascribe to rather than refute that notion.
Click to expand...


there was a time when, regardless of party, ideology, political philosophy, the main goal of those in politics, government was to keep America secure, prosperous, safe. Now the difference was in the path to get there, but not the goal.

I don't think you can apply that today to our elected officials as you put it. I don't think it applies to our political parties and those of different ideologies. At least the ideologues. I think the republicans had a goal during Obama to stop everything he did or thought of regardless of if it would have been good or bad for America. Stopping him was number one on their agenda, what's good for America came way further down.

I say the same thing about democrats today. They want to destroy Trump no matter what regardless of whether that destruction harms the country or not. We have to get back to treating ideas on their merits, not whom proposed them or wanted them. If something is good for the country, then both parties should climb on board. Who cares if Obama came up with the idea or if Trump did? I don't.

I'm sick and tired of those in Washington being Republicans and Democrats first and foremost while being Americans is way down the line if they even think they are Americans. I tired of them putting their party first, for the good of the party and not the country, loyalty to party and not the nation. We need to get back to where the two major parties can work together, can cooperate, compromise and come up with legislation and programs good for the country. Everyone wins then. Both parties and most of all, America.
 
MrWonka said:
And again I say to you. Political parties are not ethnicities. You are not beholden to them. The Republican Party is the party of Trump. That is who they nominated, and that is who they will nominate again. It is time for any Republican who wants to separate themselves from Trump to separate themselves from the Republican Party.

Those so-called moderate reasonable Republicans were all too happy to get the votes of racist, misogynist, xenophobic Trump supporters for 40 years. They thought the rich elitist businessmen types could control them, but they knew full well who they had thrown their lot in with. The cat is now out of the bag. Any bull**** lies about the Republican party being about small government, pro-business and family values is now gone. That ship has sailed. The Republican party is beyond saving and needs to be put out of its misery. If you're not helping us achieve that goal then I don't give a flying **** about your nuanced excuse for why you're not.
Click to expand...
Red:
Your remarks above were made in direct reply to the part of my post that contained the following statements:

I'll cede that in voting for Trump people, Republicans/conservatives acted benightedly; however, that was 2016 and it's now 2019. Some of such voters remain hewn to Trump; others do not. Those who have come about cannot be currently described as fascists, or Nazis, or another similar moniker one favors.​

Why then have you asserted that one who would "separate [himself] from Trump" must literally tick a different box on their voter registration form? It seems to me that disapprobation in the voting booth will do just fine, particularly among "grass roots" Republicans. Among GOP legislators it's simply a matter of not voting with Trump on measures that come up for vote and allowing, without regard to Trump's stance about them, to come up for votes measures.
 
MrWonka said:
No, it's more like this...

YouTube

One of the great strengths of Liberals is their understanding of nuance and the fact that they understand the world is not black and white, but if you're not careful that can also be your undoing. While you want to have your little discussions about nuance, hate just comes along and punches you in the mouth. Sometimes you have to recognize a serious threat and you have to fight it. You have to let your fight or flight instincts take over and end the threat. There may be some Republicans who say they hate Trump, and that's fine. But it is their responsibility to get the **** out of the way when we come for the rest of them.
Click to expand...


Red:
Thematically, I agree, provided your "red" comment is figurative and constrained, executionally, to the procurement of political primacy.

As for the rest of your remarks in the above quoted post, well, its tactically offensive approach is tantamount to proponing barbarism, and I don't.
 
Perotista said:
there was a time when, regardless of party, ideology, political philosophy, the main goal of those in politics, government was to keep America secure, prosperous, safe. Now the difference was in the path to get there, but not the goal.

I don't think you can apply that today to our elected officials as you put it. I don't think it applies to our political parties and those of different ideologies. At least the ideologues. I think the republicans had a goal during Obama to stop everything he did or thought of regardless of if it would have been good or bad for America. Stopping him was number one on their agenda, what's good for America came way further down.

I say the same thing about democrats today. They want to destroy Trump no matter what regardless of whether that destruction harms the country or not. We have to get back to treating ideas on their merits, not whom proposed them or wanted them. If something is good for the country, then both parties should climb on board. Who cares if Obama came up with the idea or if Trump did? I don't.

I'm sick and tired of those in Washington being Republicans and Democrats first and foremost while being Americans is way down the line if they even think they are Americans. I tired of them putting their party first, for the good of the party and not the country, loyalty to party and not the nation. We need to get back to where the two major parties can work together, can cooperate, compromise and come up with legislation and programs good for the country. Everyone wins then. Both parties and most of all, America.
Click to expand...

Red:
Agree.


Tan:
Disagree.


Blue:
I share your sentiments.


Pink:
I agree, but given the current cultural disdain for patricians and the so-called democratization of "everything," I doubt we'll anytime soon enjoy that state of affairs.
 
Perotista said:
I say the same thing about Democrats today. They want to destroy Trump no matter what regardless of whether that destruction harms the country or not.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but no. Republicans were against everything Obama because he was a black man who was going to have an opportunity to fix a gigantic Economic mess caused under a Republican administration, and if he succeeded it would lead to the destruction of the Republican Party.

We hate Trump and Republicans because we watched them throw their country under the bus in a desperate attempt to save their party and to keep the white race dominant. They are now trying to ride President Obama's coat tails and take credit for the good work that he did. There is literally nothing Trump could succeed at that would be beneficial to our country. Any perceived "success" would validate the actions of the Republican Party under President Obama and would spell certain doom for the country overall.

Donald Trump is an unethical egomaniacal pathological liar. He is the exact type of person who has time and time again all throughout human history used fear, xenophobia, and racism to subvert Democracies by creating the imaginary crisis, and positioning himself as the only one who is strong enough and willing to do what is necessary to save the people. This is exactly how free societies are subverted and turned into tyrannical dictatorships where the will of the people is ignored. This is not a drill.

Perotista said:
We need to get back to where the two major parties can work together, can cooperate, compromise and come up with legislation and programs good for the country. Everyone wins then. Both parties and most of all, America.
Click to expand...

Whether you realize it or not though it is people like you who are the actual problem. When people don't understand an argument well their natural tendency is to gravitate towards the middle. To assume that the problem is with both sides. That both sides are generally good and want what is best, but both sides have their liars and their partisans and that both sides need to come together and work towards a compromise.

I'm sorry to say, but it is precisely this type of thinking that allows evil to thrive. They depend on your ignorance to shield them from judgment and allow them to get away with their ****ty behavior. You're like a cop who has shown up to a bar fight already in progress. You don't know who started it so your instinct is just to break it up and throw them all in jail. That's understandable, but it's also very problematic. If you don't figure out who it was the started the whole thing you're in danger of punishing both equally or letting both off the hook. If the two people learn that who started it doesn't matter to the people responsible for handing out the consequences then in the future they will remember that and make sure they are always the one who throws the first punch so they're not on the defensive.

In the 2016 election Republicans learned that they can not only get away with lies, racism, xenophobia, misogyny and general divisiveness, but they can, in fact, win with it. If you let that strategy win it will become the norm. Sometimes there is a good guy and a bad guy in these fights, and this is one of those times. False equivalencies about both sides make you part of the problem.
 
Xelor said:
Red:
Agree.


Tan:
Disagree.


Blue:
I share your sentiments.


Pink:
I agree, but given the current cultural disdain for patricians and the so-called democratization of "everything," I doubt we'll anytime soon enjoy that state of affairs.
Click to expand...

Interesting. It seems to me that the Democrats set out to destroy Trump the day after he was elected. Although Trump with his obnoxious, uncouth personality makes it easier for them. How one views this probably is decided by which side of the fence one sits on. In other words, Trump creates a lot of his own problems, either by action of his idiotic tweets.

Trump is the first president that never had a honeymoon. There's really isn't a way to prove the destruction. But I think by looking at a president's approval rating by the opposite party at inauguration and at the end of 100 days tends to tell you how much a chance the opposing party gave a certain president.

Democrats gave Trump 12% approval 30 Jan 2016 and 9% on 1 Apr
Republican gave Obama 41% approval 30 Jan 2009 and 27% on 1 Apr
Democrats gave G.W. Bush 32% approval 30 Jan 2001 and 37% on 1 Apr
Republicans gave Bill Clinton 33% approval 30 Jan 1993 and 25% on 1 Apr
Democrats gave G.H.W. Bush 38% approval 30 Jan 1989 and 42% on 1 Apr
Democrats gave Reagan 38% approval 30 Jan 1981 and 41% on 1 Apr

All that I mention had at least a 30% plus approval when they took office from the opposing party except Trump. Now destroy might be too strong a word for some, but I think the above proves the Democrats were even willing to give the guy a chance.

Presidential Job Approval Center

I also don't think out outlook is too good.
 
Xelor said:
Why then have you asserted that one who would "separate [himself] from Trump" must literally tick a different box on their voter registration form?
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Because that is the whole reason for political parties to exist. The Republican Party has a platform. It has policy ideas, and those ideas are driven almost exclusively by Donald Trump. If you do not support that leader or his ideas then you should not be waving his flag. And YES, it is HIS flag. The reason we have words like Republican and Democrat instead of just calling them Conservatives and Liberals is because there is no particular reason why either individual political party has to stand for any one set of principles. The party can conform to whatever ideas their voters desire. If the Republican Party no longer adheres to Conservative ideas then there is no rational reason for a Conservative to be a member of it.

A rose by any other name would still smell sweet. The word Republican is now synonymous with the Klan, Nazis, and Trump. If that's not your particular fragrance then change your affiliation. Sticking with a party that clearly no longer agrees with you is the definition of partisan hackery.

Xelor said:
It seems to me that disapprobation in the voting booth will do just fine, particularly among "grassroots" Republicans.
Click to expand...

The Republican Party is a lot like an alcoholic. In order to change and get better, it needs to hit rock bottom. It needs an intervention. It needs to see all of it's loved ones who recognize the problem stand up to it and show them they will not continue to accept their current behavior. As Donald Trump himself has repeatedly said if you want a good deal you have to be willing to walk away.

So long as anti-Trump Republicans remain part of the Republican party they are enabling the disgusting behavior of Donald Trump and his supporters. They are helping the alcoholic make excuses for why he was late to work or had to take a sick day. They think that if they stay in the Republican party and remain close to these people it will give them an opportunity to reason with them and help them get back to what it once was without it having to go through a complete and total break down, but all their doing is delaying the problem and making it worse.

Xelor said:
Among GOP legislators it's simply a matter of not voting with Trump on measures that come up for a vote and allowing, without regard to Trump's stance about them, to come up for votes measures.
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Name one Republican congressmen who have consistently done that...

The Republicans who say they oppose Trump don't like his attitude, but they're more than willing to enable his behavior to meet their political ends. They say they don't support the Klan, Nazis, Racism, misogyny... But deep down inside they know they can't win without them. If you can't win a political victory without the help of the KKK then you shouldn't be winning at all.

If such a tiny fraction of the country wants what Republicans are offering that they have no choice, but to secure the support of disgusting Trump supporters to pass their agenda then there isn't enough support for their ideas among decent human beings that they should be imposing those ideas upon us. If the only other people who back their proposals are racist pieces of **** then it's time to accept the reality that your proposals are ****ing awful.
 
MrWonka said:
I'm sorry, but no. Republicans were against everything Obama because he was a black man who was going to have an opportunity to fix a gigantic Economic mess caused under a Republican administration, and if he succeeded it would lead to the destruction of the Republican Party.

We hate Trump and Republicans because we watched them throw their country under the bus in a desperate attempt to save their party and to keep the white race dominant. They are now trying to ride President Obama's coat tails and take credit for the good work that he did. There is literally nothing Trump could succeed at that would be beneficial to our country. Any perceived "success" would validate the actions of the Republican Party under President Obama and would spell certain doom for the country overall.

Donald Trump is an unethical egomaniacal pathological liar. He is the exact type of person who has time and time again all throughout human history used fear, xenophobia, and racism to subvert Democracies by creating the imaginary crisis, and positioning himself as the only one who is strong enough and willing to do what is necessary to save the people. This is exactly how free societies are subverted and turned into tyrannical dictatorships where the will of the people is ignored. This is not a drill.



Whether you realize it or not though it is people like you who are the actual problem. When people don't understand an argument well their natural tendency is to gravitate towards the middle. To assume that the problem is with both sides. That both sides are generally good and want what is best, but both sides have their liars and their partisans and that both sides need to come together and work towards a compromise.

I'm sorry to say, but it is precisely this type of thinking that allows evil to thrive. They depend on your ignorance to shield them from judgment and allow them to get away with their ****ty behavior. You're like a cop who has shown up to a bar fight already in progress. You don't know who started it so your instinct is just to break it up and throw them all in jail. That's understandable, but it's also very problematic. If you don't figure out who it was the started the whole thing you're in danger of punishing both equally or letting both off the hook. If the two people learn that who started it doesn't matter to the people responsible for handing out the consequences then in the future they will remember that and make sure they are always the one who throws the first punch so they're not on the defensive.

In the 2016 election Republicans learned that they can not only get away with lies, racism, xenophobia, misogyny and general divisiveness, but they can, in fact, win with it. If you let that strategy win it will become the norm. Sometimes there is a good guy and a bad guy in these fights, and this is one of those times. False equivalencies about both sides make you part of the problem.
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This is part of the problem we have today, the thinking that the other party is evil and out to destroy this nation. Both major parties have that view. I also think the majority of opposition to Obama wasn't because he was black. it was due to differing political ideologies. All one had to do is disagree with Obama on a couple of policies to be labeled a racist by his supporters. You could back him 80-90 percent of the time, but disagree or oppose him on a couple of things, you're a racist and are only opposing him because he is black.

That is either one tired excuse or one is attempting to stymie or stifle those with differing political points of view.
 
MrWonka said:
Stupid Nazis are still Nazis. I will say this again for you. There is no excuse for thinking Donald Trump was an acceptable choice. None. I don't give a flying **** what twisted garbage logic you used to convince yourself that Hillary Clinton was just as bad or worse. All Trump voters. Every, single, solitary, one of them. They are at best morons and worst evil, but usually some combination of the two. "Moron" is the best possible word that can be used to describe them. That's in giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The Republican party has crossed a line into pure unadulterated Evil, and if you found a way to convince yourself that Hillary Clinton was just as bad then the problem is with you. You've got a choice between a party that is 90% positive and a party that is 90% evil. If you choose to equate the two or sided with Evil it doesn't matter why you did it. You're still a ****ty person who made a big ****ing mistake. It's time for you to be an adult and admit that you ****ed up.

You're trying to blame the nice salesmen who tried to sell you a decent Buick that would have been a solid deal for the fact that you stupidly got tricked into buying a lemon from the most obviously shady used car salesmen in the history of mankind. You ****ed up. Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party gave you a significantly better choice, and you rejected it for dog ****. Stop trying to blame Democrats for your **** up. We offered you Broccoli, and you choose Strychnine because you were mad you couldn't have Pizza.

Contrary to what so-called Moderates and Independents would like to think it is absolutely possible to still be a Partisan hack while claiming a Moderate status. One of the problems with liberals is also their strength. They don't like to be pigeonholed or labeled. In the interested of trying to avoid the label of Democrat, there are those who will come up with all kinds of convoluted excuses for why they're bad too. Just like a partisan Democrat or Republican will bend over backward to come up with excuses to defend something their candidate did. An independent will bend over backward to try and justify their independence by making up excuses for not liking both sides.

If you voted for Hitler you're a Nazi. I don't care why. I don't care if you supported Mussolini because you thought he'd made the Trains run on time. You're still a disgusting moron, and you're still a fascist.
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This sort of unhinged hysterics will help reelect Trump.
 
Perotista said:
This is part of the problem we have today, the thinking that the other party is evil and out to destroy this nation. Both major parties have that view. I also think the majority of opposition to Obama wasn't because he was black. it was due to differing political ideologies. All one had to do is disagree with Obama on a couple of policies to be labeled a racist by his supporters. You could back him 80-90 percent of the time, but disagree or oppose him on a couple of things, you're a racist and are only opposing him because he is black.

That is either one tired excuse or one is attempting to stymie or stifle those with differing political points of view.
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Many lefties cannot fathom that others don't buy into their nanny state malignant collectivism and figure if we opposed crap like Obamacare it had to be due to Obama being black.
 
Perotista said:
....We need to get back to where the two major parties can work together, can cooperate, compromise and come up with legislation and programs good for the country. Everyone wins then. Both parties and most of all, America.
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BTW, TY for making a remark pertinent directly to "Julia's" concluding prayer:

One of the things I pray for is that people with power will get good sense, and people with good sense will get power, and that the rest of us will be blessed with the patience and strength to survive...in the meantime.​

Now I can't say that every Democrat or Republic holder of public office had good sense, but I know that never before have we had the single most powerful public servant on the planet be also a man having no good sense, yet we now do. Furthermore, we've not ever had Congressional Republicans and Democrats bereft of whatever degree of sense it takes to rebuke a POTUS who transgressed the bar of propriety appropriate to holding the land's highest office.

For instance, in 1868, one of the things of which the Senate almost (one vote short) found Johnson guilty was "bringing disgrace and ridicule to the presidency." That is the bar by which a POTUS must be measured. Another article had to do with Johnson's midterm stumping vitriol and rhetorical incontinence. Those are two qualitative, extralegal standards to which Congressional Republicans held a president. In the 1990s, Republicans held a president accountable for lying, which no matter to whom a POTUS lies, attracts "disgrace and ridicule" to the office the man holds, that is, to the presidency. That's what Republicans, people in power, used to have the good sense to do.
 
Perotista said:
This is part of the problem we have today, the thinking that the other party is evil and out to destroy this nation.
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What exactly is preventing that from being the Truth? It happened to Germany. It happened to Rome. It happened to North Korea, Syria, Cuba, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Russia...

Why not here? Do you really think the evil that overcame those societies and used faux emergencies to usurp Democracy can't happen here? Are you sure you'd recognize it if it was happening? You don't think there were Germans who said, "Oh come on, Hitler's not evil. He's a little rough around the edges, but he loves Germany and Germans." They thought, "He wants what is best for Germany just like you do, he's just got a different way of going about it."

If you look at the characteristics and the rise to power of every single solitary Tryrant throughout history you will find the similarities between then and what is happening in America today to be staggeringly similar. This is not a drill. Somebody saw those evils coming before they took full control, and someone just like you said they were being hysterical.

We already have thousands of innocent children who have been stolen from their parents, concentrated in camps, and drugged to keep them from crying. We have a president who is declaring a state of emergency where no emergency exists, and he is using that emergency to get around Congress and make decisions without their consent.

Trump is the emergency.

Perotista said:
the majority of opposition to Obama wasn't because he was black. it was due to differing political ideologies. All one had to do is disagree with Obama on a couple of policies to be labeled a racist by his supporters.
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Garbage nonsense. Unlike Trump, Obama didn't create an Emergency just to make himself look heroic by solving it. The Financial Crisis, the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan... these problems were handed to President Obama. To be opposed to new leadership at a time like that is irrational and when you look at his opposition and what they were saying and doing it's pretty hard to be agreeing with anything they were saying and doing and not open yourself to legitimate questions about your racism.

You had to do a hell of a lot more than just criticize President Obama to be labeled a racist, but if your criticisms themselves were irrational then there's only so many explanations that can exist.
 
Xelor said:
One of the things I pray for is that people with power will get a good sense, and people with good sense will get power
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I forget if it was Einstein or Russel who said, "One of the great tragedies of the world is that intelligent people are so full of doubt, but stupid people are so full of confidence." Donald Trump won because no matter how insanely stupid or dishonest he was he said what he said and did what he did with confidence. If you think you're going to win any of those voters back with calm reasoned reflection you're deluding yourself.
 
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