Page 20 of 20 FirstFirst ... 10181920
Results 191 to 199 of 199

Thread: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

  1. #191
    Sage
    Mycroft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    48,111

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    Quote Originally Posted by VanCleef View Post
    FOX isn't even reporting it,they know better to source a 2 paragraph opinion piece that offers no proof or citation.

    How many miles have been built? Or did it literally just start a few days ago when they got Congressional $$$ and only a few feet so far?

    Are you sure it is a wall or just the 55 miles of fence as Congress dictated?
    If you had read the article, you wouldn't be asking those questions. The article answered them.

    You are dismissed for wasting my time.
    TANSTAAFL
    When I "dismiss" you it only means that I have determined that further discussion is useless or counter-productive. Don't take it personally. Go ahead and have your last word...and move on.

  2. #192
    Advisor VanCleef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Seen
    03-19-19 @ 11:34 PM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    505

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    If you had read the article, you wouldn't be asking those questions. The article answered them.

    You are dismissed for wasting my time.
    He doesn't quote anyone saying the wall has already been built or provide proof. It's labeled opinion and he gives 2 quick paragraphs with no real quotes of what he claims.

    Btw, Bollard Fencing placement started today. A 12 mile allotment. Not last week. But that's still just replacement.

  3. #193
    Advisor VanCleef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Seen
    03-19-19 @ 11:34 PM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    505

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post

    BUT what's the point of informing you? If you can't tell me how many murders by illegal border crossers a year means the border security is acceptable, or why that number is acceptable, then there is nothing to argue over. What is "acceptable" is whatever "feelings" move you in the moment.
    According to statistics, violent crimes by illegals is a "micro-drop" compared to the total violent crimes per year. And most research shows it to be at a lower rate than native born, minus one contested study.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...it-more-crime/
    Is Illegal Immigration Linked to More or Less Crime? - FactCheck.org
    Illegal immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than natural citizens - Business Insider
    MOSTLY TRUE: Undocumented immigrants less likely to commit crimes than U.S. citizens | PolitiFact California

    And as someone told me earlier in regards for such micro-drop violent crime totals,

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post

    So in a nation of 330 million and 9.1 million crimes per year, I think the "micro-drops" of a few crimes aren't worth your watery eyes, let alone a drop of your tears.
    Apparently such a tiny percent of crimes isn't "worth your tears", or most certainly a wall.

    No wonder it polls so poorly among most Americans, they seem to agree with your logic!

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...l-confirms-it/
    Last edited by VanCleef; 02-19-19 at 10:01 PM.

  4. #194
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:36 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    8,509

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    Quote Originally Posted by VanCleef View Post
    He doesn't quote anyone saying the wall has already been built or provide proof. It's labeled opinion and he gives 2 quick paragraphs with no real quotes of what he claims.

    Btw, Bollard Fencing placement started today. A 12 mile allotment. Not last week. But that's still just replacement.
    According the piece itself, though its buried at the bottom, its 6 miles of "wall" not described supported by various technology described as "proven effective" elsewhere whatever that means. That simply reads like Prototype 2 to me. 6 miles is about what I would build as a Prototype 2. Trump likely has enough money for that from the last CR, not the $1.375B just Appropriated.

    Knock your mind out DonDon. Still does not offer much to context the opinion that Trump's efforts regarding this wall were and are entirely unserious. The preponderance of what is in the public domain very much supports that opinion more than any opinion offered that Trump ever did or intended to mount a serious effort to build the thing.

  5. #195
    Conservatarian

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,329

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    Quote Originally Posted by VanCleef View Post
    According to statistics, violent crimes by illegals is a "micro-drop" compared to the total violent crimes per year. And most research shows it to be at a lower rate than native born, minus one contested study.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...it-more-crime/
    Is Illegal Immigration Linked to More or Less Crime? - FactCheck.org
    Illegal immigrants commit fewer violent crimes than natural citizens - Business Insider
    MOSTLY TRUE: Undocumented immigrants less likely to commit crimes than U.S. citizens | PolitiFact California

    And as someone told me earlier in regards for such micro-drop violent crime totals, Apparently such a tiny percent of crimes isn't "worth your tears", or most certainly a wall.

    No wonder it polls so poorly among most Americans, they seem to agree with your logic!
    In a country wherein only ONE US STATE has a majority that can pass the citizenship test used to become naturalized citizens, I'm not expecting the majority of hoi poli operate at any great level of cognition than my cat. (Those under 45 had an astounding 70 percent "F" letter grade).

    And if illegals only committed 7000 crimes a year, not only would I not shed tears over so many ignoramuses, I'd be popping Champaign corks and declaring we have proof of existence of divine intervention.

    I will parse through the articles to filter out all the misleading references to legal immigration from illegals (a step many habitual illegal defenders fail to do), exclude the media echoing the same the same study, and find the "loaded" basis of what remains - if any.

    In the meantime, before we look at the studies and evaluations that persuasive that illegals do commit more crimes, here are some things to keep in mind:

    1. Crimes committed by millions of illegal immigrants related to use of fraudulent SSI numbers, fake driver's licenses, forged green cars, and improper use of public benefits are never counted in these studies. In addition some, such as Cato, leave out broad classes of drug offenses, further distorting the actual crime rate.

    2. Most government (at all levels) do not collect data of illegal alien crime convictions. To do such might draw fire from the pro-illegal constituency (e.g. identity groups and the Democratic party). So sources are intentionally limited.

    3. In spite of this, most researchers try to ignore the few established sources that do provide data on criminal acts by known illegal aliens. They point to all types of alleged, and typically baseless, “flaws” in measuring the direct rate of incarceration. In actuality, however, the only real flaw, from the perspective of mainstream research organizations is that doing so confirms that illegal aliens commit other crimes at a higher rate.[/B]

    So before you uncritically accept the "bums rush" assumption that there is only one study or evaluation that shows illegals commit crime that is not true - no matter where you obtained that "information".

    Most recently, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, did a detailed study based on firm data on incarcerations, they found the following:

    Key Findings in Brief

    FAIR found that in all SCAAP-reporting states along the Southern Border, and in SCAAP-reporting interior states that are preferred destinations for unlawful migrants, illegal aliens are incarcerated at a much higher rate than citizens and lawfully-present aliens.[7]

    SCAAP data indicate that illegal aliens are typically at least three times as likely to be incarcerated than citizens and lawfully-present aliens.

    Since the SCAAP program only includes those illegal aliens who have, at some point, been convicted of a crime, the only reasonable conclusion is that illegal aliens must commit crimes at a higher rate than citizens or lawfully-present aliens in order to be incarcerated at such high rates.

    These findings stand in stark contrast to the narrative pushed by the open-borders lobby that illegal aliens are less likely to commit crimes compared to citizens or lawfully-present aliens.
    Immigration Illegal Crime FAIR.jpg

    SCAAP Data Suggest Illegal Aliens Commit Crime at a Much Higher Rate Than Citizens and Lawful Immigrants | Federation for American Immigration Reform

    Cont...
    Last edited by maxparrish; 02-20-19 at 02:06 AM.

  6. #196
    Conservatarian

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,329

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    Cont.

    Undocumented Immigrants, U.S. Citizens, and Convicted Criminals in Arizona by John R. Lott :: SSRN

    John R. Lott
    Crime Prevention Research Center
    Date Written: February 10, 2018
    Abstract

    Using newly released detailed data on all prisoners who entered the Arizona state prison from January 1985 through June 2017, we are able to separate non-U.S. citizens by whether they are illegal or legal residents. Unlike other studies, these data do not rely on self-reporting of criminal backgrounds. Undocumented immigrants are at least 142% more likely to be convicted of a crime than other Arizonans. They also tend to commit more serious crimes and serve 10.5% longer sentences, more likely to be classified as dangerous, and 45% more likely to be gang members than U.S. citizens. Yet, there are several reasons that these numbers are likely to underestimate the share of crime committed by undocumented immigrants. There are dramatic differences between in the criminal histories of convicts who are U.S. citizens and undocumented immigrants.

    Young convicts are especially likely to be undocumented immigrants. While undocumented immigrants from 15 to 35 years of age make up slightly over two percent of the Arizona population, they make up about eight percent of the prison population. Even after adjusting for the fact that young people commit crime at higher rates, young undocumented immigrants commit crime at twice the rate of young U.S. citizens. These undocumented immigrants also tend to commit more serious crimes.

    If undocumented immigrants committed crime nationally as they do in Arizona, in 2016 they would have been responsible for over 1,000 more murders, 5,200 rapes, 8,900 robberies, 25,300 aggravated assaults, and 26,900 burglaries.

    Keywords: undocumented immigrants, crime, recidivism, illegal aliens, documented immigrants, legal aliens
    JEL Classification: J68, K42
    Suggested Citation
    More coming...

  7. #197
    Conservatarian

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,329

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    And another evaluation, this time quoting federal data:


    Non-Citizens Committed a Disproportionate Share of Federal Crimes, 2011-16 | Center for Immigration Studies

    But the federal government does track the citizenship of those it convicts. New data from the U.S. Sentencing Commission shows that of those convicted of federal crimes between 2011 and 2016, 44.2 percent were not U.S. citizens 21.4 percent, if immigration crimes are excluded. In comparison, non-citizens are 8.4 percent of the adult population. Of this 8.4 percent, about 4 percent are illegal immigrants and about 4 percent are legal immigrants.

    Among the findings of the new data:

    Areas where non-citizens account for a much larger share of convictions than their 8.4 percent share of the adult population include:

    42.4 percent of kidnapping convictions;
    31.5 percent of drug convictions;
    22.9 percent of money laundering convictions;
    13.4 percent of administration of justice offenses (e.g. witness tampering, obstruction, and contempt);
    17.8 percent of economic crimes (e.g. larceny, embezzlement, and fraud);
    13 percent of other convictions (e.g. bribery, civil rights, environmental, and prison offenses); and
    12.8 percent of auto thefts.
    Areas where non-citizens account for a share of convictions roughly equal to their share of the adult population include:
    9.6 percent of assaults;
    8.9 percent of homicides; and
    7.5 percent of firearm crimes.

    Areas where non-citizens account for a share of convictions lower than their share of the adult population include:
    4.1 percent of sex crimes;
    3.3 percent of robberies;
    4.5 percent of arsons; and
    0 percent of burglaries.

    Data. These tables showing convictions were compiled by the Government Accountability Office at the request of the Senate Judicatory Committee based on data from the U.S. Sentencing Commission "Interactive Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics". Convictions are in the federal courts for felonies and class A misdemeanors. Death penalty cases and petty offenses are not included. The non-citizen share of the overall adult population comes from the public-use data file of the 2011-2016 American Community Survey collected by the U.S. Census Bureau.

  8. #198
    Sage

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:36 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    8,509

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    SCAAP Data Suggest Illegal Aliens Commit Crime at a Much Higher Rate Than Citizens and Lawful Immigrants

    FAIR found that in all SCAAP-reporting states along the Southern Border, and in SCAAP-reporting interior states that are preferred destinations for unlawful migrants, illegal aliens are incarcerated at a much higher rate than citizens and lawfully-present aliens.[7]

    SCAAP data indicate that illegal aliens are typically at least three times as likely to be incarcerated than citizens and lawfully-present aliens.

    Since the SCAAP program only includes those illegal aliens who have, at some point, been convicted of a crime, the only reasonable conclusion is that illegal aliens must commit crimes at a higher rate than citizens or lawfully-present aliens in order to be incarcerated at such high rates.

    These findings stand in stark contrast to the narrative pushed by the open-borders lobby that illegal aliens are less likely to commit crimes compared to citizens or lawfully-present aliens.


    If the best they can do after all that sorting is "suggest" you start looking more seriously at the holes in their methodology. Using SCAAP data to make their point is slipshod at best. Then crossing it with other data from other sources not intended for anything like the same purposes as SCAAP data is less than slipshod. It reduces the data to statistically unmanageable. Add to that, the "years" axis does not represent numbers of incarcerated with a beginning point and an end point for that year but the year the data was analyzed. In other words they took what they could get from Column A from one data set and crossed it with what they wanted to use from column B of a completely different data set. Both the numerator and the denominator are questionable and crossing them to gain a number is simply bad statistical analysis.

    I would suggest that the only study you presented in all of that mishmash that has any merit is the Center for Immigration Studies material for Federal Crimes. At least they are using one set of data points with the data points specific to an actual year of data, not a year of analysis. Even that assumes that non-citizen crime is primarily committed by illegal non-citizens. That is probably at least a fair assumption though there is nothing provided as a means to rate it to the data.

    I have to look more carefully at the Arizona material in order to judge its merits though I am not much impressed with the Author of the Abstract taking Arizona data and trying to make his case by spreading it over the entire country. That much which I can see just from the abstract is not encouraging as to relevance!

  9. #199
    Conservatarian

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:00 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,329

    Re: Trump should tell Congress to shove this bill up their _______

    Quote Originally Posted by jnug View Post
    ...

    If the best they can do after all that sorting is "suggest" you start looking more seriously at the holes in their methodology. Using SCAAP data to make their point is slipshod at best. Then crossing it with other data from other sources not intended for anything like the same purposes as SCAAP data is less than slipshod. It reduces the data to statistically unmanageable. Add to that, the "years" axis does not represent numbers of incarcerated with a beginning point and an end point for that year but the year the data was analyzed. In other words they took what they could get from Column A from one data set and crossed it with what they wanted to use from column B of a completely different data set. Both the numerator and the denominator are questionable and crossing them to gain a number is simply bad statistical analysis.
    The only element of "slipshod" I see is from posters who attempt to persuade others with a cascade of scornful adjectives and random disparagements, without producing even a thimble of actual support for their characterizations. I suppose the reader, knee deep in your denunciations about "holes" and "slipshod", isn't supposed to ask the obvious: why should we believe pretentious bad mouthing adjectives without a shred of evidence, example, or even an unambiguous explanation of precisely your gripes? ('Me hate SCAAP data' is not a persuasive point.)

    So if you wish to be taken seriously, I suggest you use quotations and citations rather than channeling the late Prof. Erwin Corey. You might even read the actual paper.

    I would suggest that the only study you presented in all of that mishmash that has any merit is the Center for Immigration Studies material for Federal Crimes. At least they are using one set of data points with the data points specific to an actual year of data, not a year of analysis. Even that assumes that non-citizen crime is primarily committed by illegal non-citizens. That is probably at least a fair assumption though there is nothing provided as a means to rate it to the data.
    I suggest you read the paper and quote specifics demonstrating your assertions before making criticisms that require the reader to speculate on what particular data treatment you are referring to.

    I have to look more carefully at the Arizona material in order to judge its merits though I am not much impressed with the Author of the Abstract taking Arizona data and trying to make his case by spreading it over the entire country. That much which I can see just from the abstract is not encouraging as to relevance!
    What you "can see" is mostly known only to you and God. But what I can see is that you are unaware of the literature, and are unaware of history and challenges of such studies.

    First, most studies use WORSE sources for data. The most common use is that of the Census Bureau which gathers information based on those asked volunteering their information, and doing so honestly. The census taker asks if a person is a citizen or here legally or not. IF an illegal answers that honestly (highly problematical that anyone would want to answer that who was unlawful) they then ask if he has been convicted of a crime while in the US. Again, highly problematical that a criminal would answer honestly.

    Second, many studies don't separate illegals from legal immigrants, thus hiding the subset of illegals under the much better lawful conduct of legal immigrants.

    SCAAP data isn't perfect, BUT it is not based on an illegal criminal telling a surveyor whatever story he/she chooses. Its based on real convictions and vetted status by the jurisdictions studied.

    In other words, its a heck of a lot more reliable than the pro-illegal studies that preceded it.

Page 20 of 20 FirstFirst ... 10181920

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •